Your Thoughts on Reestablishing LR?

scopus tang

scopus tang

Active Member
Originally Posted by locoyo386
http:///forum/post/2933387
Hi there,
Sure Scopus, some macro or critters will most definelty migrate. Bacteria is of more of a question than anything else. Take nitrifying bacteria, lives on the surface of media inside the tank. It gets established there by the presence of nutrients (food). I do not know for sure if it indeed lives on the water column. If it does than, sure it might migrate from one to the other. I on the other hand do not think it does. I do not believe that there is a very stable molecule for the bacteria to attach to. Well I do not know this for a fact. Take H2O, does the bacteria attach to it and thus reach supension inside the tank? maybe - do not know. Same goes for any other molecule. Well you do have protein strands (food particles as whole or broken down into big enough but smaller strands) that might provide enough surface for the bacteria to colonize and migrate. If so, they would not be migrating at will, but they could well reestablish themselves on another rock rock they land on. This might be possible, I guess. If bacteria can be air borne, than maybe it is possible to have water borne bacteria.
My suggestion to this question would be the following;
In an already setablished tank. place two pieces of "base rock (dead rock)".
One next or on top to a "live rock", the other as far away as possible from any and all "live rock". The one near or on top of the "live rock" should look and become more alive faster than the other one. I would not brush or do anything to the rocks, just let them be. If after several months you do notice a difference between the two, than you have answeared your question. Otherwise, assumptions can be made and new theories established.
Certainly I can tell you that when I seeded my man-made rock, some of the rock was in a closer proximity to the seeding LR than other parts. There was not brushing or scraping of the rock involved. Nor was their any distinguisable difference in the rate at which the visible macro organisms colonized the rock (diatoms being first, and coralline algae and feather duster worms being the most obvious of the "beneficial" species.)
Sure there are other factors involved, such as livestock carrying this organisms to the far away rock. The living organisms that live on and inside the sand. It might still be worth a try though.
Locoyo, love the debate and the thought you are putting into it. I personally love to see that people can actually think some of these things through - it reestablishes my faith in our educational system
. Here's my thoughts/argument on the mobility of bacteria. Bacteria colonizes almost every surface on the planet. Sterilize a surface with bleach or clorox, and in 24 hours you can still culture living bacteria from that surface. How do they get there? Certainly, as you pointed out they are airborn. Set up a brand spanking new freshwater aquarium with sterile rock and tap water (declorinated or not). and in a week or less you have sufficient bacteria established in the gravel bed to break down wastes from a small population of fish. Obviously then, bacteria is quite capable of moving through the water column. Certainly in the first marine aquariums that we set up, bacteria that could survive in salt water simply "showed up" to colonize our dead corals and CC substrate, as did saltwater diatoms, and cyanobacteria (and here in Wyoming I'm a looooong way from any ocean). The question in my mind would not be can bacteria survive/move through the water column, but can anaerobic bacteria (ie those that break down nitrates) survive and move across the water column? Since deep sand beds have been scientifically proven to work (and they obviously rely on anaerobic bacteria to do so), my response would be that they could. Which brings me back to my original question can "dead" rock become as live as "real" live rock. Barring the obvious exceptions of organisms that cannot survive in the environment of our tanks, I'm left to conclude that I personally can see no reason that "dead" LR cannot become just as alive as "real" LR.
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
I love it to,
Originally Posted by Scopus Tang
http:///forum/post/2933931
Locoyo, love the debate and the thought you are putting into it (thankyou). I personally love to see that people can actually think some of these things through (Me too) - it reestablishes my faith in our educational system
. Here's my thoughts/argument on the mobility of bacteria. Bacteria colonizes almost every surface on the planet. Sterilize a surface with bleach or clorox, and in 24 hours you can still culture living bacteria from that surface. How do they get there? Certainly, as you pointed out they are airborn. Set up a brand spanking new freshwater aquarium with sterile rock and tap water (declorinated or not). and in a week or less you have sufficient bacteria established in the gravel bed to break down wastes from a small population of fish. Obviously then, bacteria is quite capable of moving through the water column. Certainly in the first marine aquariums that we set up, bacteria that could survive in salt water simply "showed up" to colonize our dead corals and CC substrate, as did saltwater diatoms, and cyanobacteria (and here in Wyoming I'm a looooong way from any ocean). The question in my mind would not be can bacteria survive/move through the water column, but can anaerobic bacteria (ie those that break down nitrates) survive and move across the water column? Since deep sand beds have been scientifically proven to work (and they obviously rely on anaerobic bacteria to do so), my response would be that they could. Which brings me back to my original question can "dead" rock become as live as "real" live rock. Barring the obvious exceptions of organisms that cannot survive in the environment of our tanks, I'm left to conclude that I personally can see no reason that "dead" LR cannot become just as alive as "real" LR.
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
I love it to,
Originally Posted by Scopus Tang
http:///forum/post/2933931
Locoyo, love the debate and the thought you are putting into it (thankyou). I personally love to see that people can actually think some of these things through (Me too) - it reestablishes my faith in our educational system
. Here's my thoughts/argument on the mobility of bacteria. Bacteria colonizes almost every surface on the planet (I aggree). Sterilize a surface with bleach or clorox, and in 24 hours you can still culture living bacteria from that surface. How do they get there? (this is the real question, moved there or began life there?) Certainly, as you pointed out they are airborn. Set up a brand spanking new freshwater aquarium with sterile rock and tap water (declorinated or not). and in a week or less you have sufficient bacteria established in the gravel bed to break down wastes from a small population of fish. Obviously then, bacteria is quite capable of moving through the water column. Certainly in the first marine aquariums that we set up, bacteria that could survive in salt water simply "showed up" to colonize our dead corals and CC substrate, as did saltwater diatoms, and cyanobacteria (and here in Wyoming I'm a looooong way from any ocean). The question in my mind would not be can bacteria survive/move through the water column, but can anaerobic bacteria (ie those that break down nitrates) survive and move across the water column?(this is the tough one) Since deep sand beds have been scientifically proven to work (and they obviously rely on anaerobic bacteria to do so), my response would be that they could. Which brings me back to my original question can "dead" rock become as live as "real" live rock. Barring the obvious exceptions of organisms that cannot survive in the environment of our tanks, I'm left to conclude that I personally can see no reason that "dead" LR cannot become just as alive as "real" LR.
True, denitrifying bacteria poses a real question as to wether it moves or not. I personally think that (assuming that you do get this type of bacteria) the bacteria does not move, it just begin life where the right condition exist. I do not think it migrates do to the fact that it lives where there is none or very close to zero oxygen. It would have to get itself up and move trough oxyginated (some anaerobic organisms can die in the presence of oxygen) water to reach the other rock. If the conditions are right with in the individual media, than yes the bacteria will begin life.
Well if your defintion of "real live rock" is rock that can host aerobic and anaerobic organisms, than I aggree. I do not see why any rock (base, dead rock) would not be able to host them, aslong as the right conditions are present.
 
natclanwy

natclanwy

Active Member
Here is my experience, I believe that base rock will become just as live as any other rock in the same environment whether the environment be your aquarium or the ocean. Most of the LR in my tank is Caribbean LR which for those that don't know is mined onshore and then placed into offshore "LR farms" for a specified length of time (~2rs I think) and then is harvested and sold as LR. I also have a fair amount of "prairie rock" in my tank which is actually volcanic in origin and is found in the Wyoming prairie actually in the backyard of my old LFS owner. I would challenge anyone to pick out the prairie rock, Caribbean LR, Base rock, and Fiji LR in my aquarium I can't even tell most of them apart anymore. All are fully encrusted with coraline, have vast amounts of microfauna, and I would venture to say both anaerobic and aerobic bacteria. I have seen seahorse tanks that have only base LR and dry sand achieve denitrification, the owners of these tanks were worried about unwanted hitchhikers that would be detrimental to seahorse fry so they started the tanks with sterile LR and sand and the tank was running successfully for at least two years so in my mind this proves that both Nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria will populate LR without being seeded with existing LR.
 
canareef

canareef

Member
This is a great thread. I have a question though if we use synthetic salt and dead rock if it is actually dead and dry sand so in theroy there should be no living organisms that originated in the ocean or organisms that are benificial to a marine enviroment then where do they come from?? Or can some of the microfauna, anaerobic and aerobic bacteria (ect) still exist in a dormant state until later introduced into a habitable enviroment? Again this is not my opinion I'm not educated enough in the subject. Just merely a question.
 
scopus tang

scopus tang

Active Member
Originally Posted by canareef
http:///forum/post/2940056
This is a great thread. I have a question though if we use synthetic salt and dead rock if it is actually dead and dry sand so in theroy there should be no living organisms that originated in the ocean or organisms that are benificial to a marine enviroment then where do they come from?? Or can some of the microfauna, anaerobic and aerobic bacteria (ect) still exist in a dormant state until later introduced into a habitable enviroment? Again this is not my opinion I'm not educated enough in the subject. Just merely a question.
Absolutely right - If you use synthetic salt, dead or man-made rock and dry sand, you must introduce the desirable organisms - generally this can be done in several ways. You can introduce small or large pieces of LR in amongst the synthetic LR to get the rock started (method generally used to "seed" LR - recommended amount of LR to dead or man-made about 10% to 50%). You can also use a product sold by some companies which is basically crushed up LR or "rubble" which is supposed to contain coralline algae, bacteria and lots of marine organisms (google "Grunge"). For sand you can use an assortment of LS products - personally I recommmend real LS which can be aquired from your LFS (if they have a LR or LS tank - just a pound or two will do you; I just picked up 6 lbs last weekend), or it can be ordered online from sites like this one. I hear the LS from SWF.com is amazing stuff - although I personally have never used it.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Okay forget all of the flora and fauna talk.
I have;
A tank, dry aragonite sand, dry tufa rock, distilled water, any brand of sea salt. I put it all together in the correct way and throw in an uncooked cocktail shrimp in my wifes nylon stocking.
Is my rock going to become alive with the bacteria necessary to have biofiltration capabilities? (don't get hung up on the denitrification and anaerobic part of the equation) Will this "system convert ammonia generated from the decaying animal into nitrite and then into nitrate?
 
canareef

canareef

Member
I would say yes.
The organism (decomposer) what ever it may be may already exist on the shrimp. Some one said earlier in the thread that even a surface wiped clean with clorox or bleach can be cover in bacterial cultures with in hours.I guess that it doesn't matter how you go about it the cultures will appear when presented with the right conditions if there is nothing for the bacteria to eat or absorb then there should be none but if something is introduced to the equation for the bacteria to feed upon they will make themselves present. IMO
 
canareef

canareef

Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2940379
So then is that rock now "Live Rock"?
WOW I haven't sat and thought this hard in a long time.
Now I hate to answer your question with a question but. Is there really such thing as dead rock? Bacteria is every where it is on everything and in everything to a point. So if the rock is dry for 50 years will it not still have bacteria on it. It may not be the strain that we want for our aquariums to duplicate the ocean as best we can but something is there. Now can this bacteria adapt to aquatic's can it become usefull in an aquarium maybe as the starting point for the bacteria we are trying to acheive possibly in the form of food maybe it can adapt to it's new underwater enviroment. Is there an actual definition of live rock? I imagine everyone has their own theory on what live rock is and can draw their own conclusion. I believe in this subject there is no wrong or right answer it all depends on what you consider to be live rock. I guess I can stop talking myself in circles and answer your ? I would consider the rock to be live.
 
canareef

canareef

Member
I think these forums are the greatest thing to happen to this hobby. In one day I changed my opinion on what I believe to be live rock. Everyday I read and learn something new I come to new conclusions using information given out by others. Thanks to everyone for being patient and asking some very good questions that make you rethink the things. You may think you have the answer until someone challenges it and makes rethink your whole logic behind it. Oh and thanks for answering all the questions even though they may be trival to you more experienced hobbyists.
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
Hi there
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2940379
So then is that rock now "Live Rock"?
I think it's all a matter of time really. The first thing to start to happen is that the shrimp will start to decompose inside of the tank. This will lead to different types of reactions both organic and inorganic. The organic ones will allow for bacteria to grow and the inorganic will allow for the nutrients for the bacteria to exist inside the water. Yes, there will be a nitrogen cycle. The bacteria will begin to collonize surfaces inside the tank. This "in time when all the right conditions are met", will allow for higher end organisms both micro and macro. Eventually "in time" the rock will be consider "live rock". This is the dynamics of all ecosystems (marine, soil, micro, macro, etc.).
Place water in a container. Give it enough time and it will develop bacteria, algea and other things. It will take a much longer time, but it will be so. The only way it might not happen is if you have a complete vacume (space composed of nothing but water, no air no oxygen, like in outer-space).
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
Hi there,
Originally Posted by canareef
http:///forum/post/2940476
WOW I haven't sat and thought this hard in a long time
. Now I hate to answer your question with a question but. Is there really such thing as dead rock? Bacteria is every where it is on everything and in everything to a point. So if the rock is dry for 50 years will it not still have bacteria on it. (now this is an interesing twist.) It may not be the strain that we want for our aquariums to duplicate the ocean as best we can but something is there.(interesting point, make me ponder.) Now can this bacteria adapt to aquatic's can it become usefull in an aquarium maybe as the starting point for the bacteria we are trying to acheive possibly in the form of food maybe it can adapt to it's new underwater enviroment. Is there an actual definition of live rock? I imagine everyone has their own theory on what live rock is and can draw their own conclusion. I believe in this subject there is no wrong or right answer it all depends on what you consider to be live rock. (I sencerely agree with this point) I guess I can stop talking myself in circles and answer your ? I would consider the rock to be live.
Maybe the "dead rock, with all that is there" in combination with the decaying matter is what rally makes up the bacteria that eventually colonizes the aquariums, interesting. I wonder if a tank with just water and a dead shrimp, will allow for the nitrogen cycle to occur?
 
locoyo386

locoyo386

Member
hi there,
Originally Posted by canareef
http:///forum/post/2940532
I think these forums are the greatest thing to happen to this hobby. In one day I changed my opinion on what I believe to be live rock. Everyday I read and learn something new I come to new conclusions using information given out by others. Thanks to everyone for being patient and asking some very good questions that make you rethink the things. You may think you have the answer until someone challenges it and makes rethink your whole logic behind it. Oh and thanks for answering all the questions even though they may be trival to you more experienced hobbyists.
There is no such thing as a trivial question.
There was a time when everyone thought that the earth was the center of the universe. If you were to ask that question during that time, it would appear to be a trivial question with only one answear "yes, it is". now we now that was not so, thus the question was and will never be trivial. This is thanks to all the people that challange even the most mundane question.
 
mboswell1982

mboswell1982

Active Member
i have been following this thread, and i really love the thought you guys put into your questions and answers and hypothesises. id chime in, but, with my grammar, ya'll would be scratching your head going, "what cave did this neanderthal crawl out of" within 2 minutes LOL
anyway, locoyo, you always bring up some great questions and great hypothesis's and ideas, thank you
and if you want man, feel free to chime in on my experimental tank down in the nano section LOL
 
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