House passed the Health Bill

darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3253458
Actually it was my father. Like I said, he was on Medicare and had some supplemental insurance he got through his former company that he retired from after 30 years. I'd have to check with my sister, but I know my mother didn't end up with too many big bills from his ailments. I do remember when he was in the hospital last, he tried getting out of bed, fainted, and hit his head causing a brain aneurysm. His heart was clogged over 80%, and they pretty much told us he wasn't leaving the hospital because of it. He went into a coma, and instead of letting him die in peace, they talked my mother into letting them perform brain surgery to relieve the pressure from the aneurysm. He didn't make it out of the surgery (which I pretty much knew he wouldn't), and the hospital had the balls to try and bill my mother $85,000 for the operation. Fortunately I had a good lawyer that basically told the hospital to stick it where the sun don't shine, and the only money they would get from that operation is what they could suck out of Medicare (which knowing that convoluted organization, they probably got the entire $85K).
Sorry to hear about your father.
However, the doctors performed a surgery your mother elected them to perform. Then you hired a lawyer to get her out of the bill acrued. And you wonder why insurance rates and hospital costs keep going up? You just showed the prime reason..............People such as yourself refusing to pay for services rendered.
What if your government contracts decided, "hey, you know what...we know we asked you to try and do something, but since it didn't work out how we thought it would, we aren't going to pay you."
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3253468
Sorry to hear about your father.
However, the doctors performed a surgery your mother elected them to perform. Then you hired a lawyer to get her out of the bill acrued. And you wonder why insurance rates and hospital costs keep going up? You just showed the prime reason..............People such as yourself refusing to pay for services rendered.
What if your government contracts decided, "hey, you know what...we know we asked you to try and do something, but since it didn't work out how we thought it would, we aren't going to pay you."
No, we didn't pay for the surgery because 1) They pressured my 72 year old mother while she was alone away from her family, after my brother and sister told the doctors and the hospital administration that no other procedures were to be performed on my father unless they passed them by the siblings first. My sister actually had it in writing from one of his doctors. 2) We got 2 other opinions from two other doctors that specifically stated the surgery was unwarranted, and they used my father basically as a 'lab rat' for new surgeons starting out in neurological surgery.
Actually, I perform tests and procedures all the time for my customers that are beneficial to me, and I don't charge them for those services. If I have a new application, or a 'new hire' that I'm training for a project, and I need an environment to test the new applications and provide the new hire training, I use my customers equipment and location to perform those tests. They get the results they wanted, I get the comfort knowing the new application works, and the new hire gets the needed experience. Kind of a barter system. Sometimes it's not always about money. Everything I do in my business doesn't necessarily result in monetary rewards. It's also called Customer Satisfaction. I have had projects where the outcome wasn't as expected for the customer. Just like the ad's say on the TV commercials, "If you're not 100% satisfied, you get a full refund." If I take my customers money, and if the service I provided wasn't to their satisfaction, and I told them "Sorry the results weren't to your liking, but that's the way it goes. Give me more money, and I'll try again." , they wouldn't be a customer for long.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3253458
Actually it was my father. Like I said, he was on Medicare and had some supplemental insurance he got through his former company that he retired from after 30 years. I'd have to check with my sister, but I know my mother didn't end up with too many big bills from his ailments. I do remember when he was in the hospital last, he tried getting out of bed, fainted, and hit his head causing a brain aneurysm. His heart was clogged over 80%, and they pretty much told us he wasn't leaving the hospital because of it. He went into a coma, and instead of letting him die in peace, they talked my mother into letting them perform brain surgery to relieve the pressure from the aneurysm. He didn't make it out of the surgery (which I pretty much knew he wouldn't), and the hospital had the balls to try and bill my mother $85,000 for the operation. Fortunately I had a good lawyer that basically told the hospital to stick it where the sun don't shine, and the only money they would get from that operation is what they could suck out of Medicare (which knowing that convoluted organization, they probably got the entire $85K).
My uncle went through somthing similar. He went in and they gave him a pacemaker. 3 months later they had to rush him back in, turned out he needed a triple bipass. His medicare advantage covered the whole thing, or the hospital is so afraid of the possible lawsuit they ate the rest, if any. Medicare actually covers pretty well for hospitalization, it's like 250 a day for the first 5 then no charge up to 60 days.
My mom also checked out in the hospital under medicare, mostly intensive care. There was no additional charges on her either.
Not sure why the hospital was trying to charge on your dad, might have been the hospital trying to pad the books or something.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/3253460
A typical conservative ploy - take a few isolated examples of people who are flourishing under the present system, and ignore the many more in our society who are being hurt by the present system, and assuming that, "Hey, I did it, so to ____ with the rest!". A great country is one that understands that it is a society, and that we are all responsible for each other to an extent. stdreb27 - here's a challenge for you: Make your arguments without once using the epithet "liberal" and see what you have left. Generally, you simply repeat "Liberal = bad".
Pretty typical liberal ploy, throwing out the Pretty typical conservative ploy card

Somewhere around 3/4 of those with insurance say they are satisfied. The general number is supposed to be 300 million with insurance, 30 million without. If those numbers are accurate we have 225 million who like their current system with 105 million unhappy or not covered. To say "Many more are being hurt by the present system" isn't really accurate.
My point is we need a tweak, not a total reworking of what is in place.
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3253463
Why would I try and make an argument where I can't can't call a pig a pig? That is assinine.
Although I do think you missed my point, I was not trying to use that as "proof". I was trying to do 2 things. Point out that for every failure he pointed to, I could point to a success. And 2 trying to illustrate the absurdity of the LIBERAL argument, by using the same techniques against him...
But I guess that went over your head...
There you go again, using scare words, now in CAPS, no less. And calling a pig a pig - wasn't that something you guys took offense to when the issue was lipstick on a pig? So give pigs a break. Dogs may look up to us, and cats may look down on us, but only pigs think they are one of us.
If we are trying t o match failures to successes, then you are going to win because numerically there are more success stories than otherwise. However, that doesn't mean that those who do not thrive and aren't successful aren't human, worthy of being treated with humanity. If that is a liberal argument, then color me liberal. The alternative is too horrible to contemplate.
 
veni vidi vici

veni vidi vici

Active Member
SIGHIts Unconstitutional for the fed to control/run.... Health Care,what part of that is so hard to understand?There is no provsion in the Constitution. 10Th Amendment for the 100,000th time!
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member

Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3253614
SIGHIts Unconstitutional for the fed to control/run.... Health Care,what part of that is so hard to understand?There is no provsion in the Constitution. 10Th Amendment for the 100,000th time!
It will undoubtedly come out of the preamble.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
It will be interesting to see how the court cases shake out. You can make the case health care is for the public good but I am not sure forcing people to buy a private service (insurance) is gonna fly. What if someone has the means to pay their own medical bills? You are forcing them to pay for a personal service they don't want or need. It isn't like making everyone pay for the cost of military or schools, this is a individual insurance policy.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member

Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3253614
SIGHIts Unconstitutional for the fed to control/run.... Health Care,what part of that is so hard to understand?There is no provsion in the Constitution. 10Th Amendment for the 100,000th time!
What do you call Medicare/Medicaid? GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE. SIGH Try again Veni. You can't use the 10th as your catch-all Amendment for anything the Feds decide to turn into a law. If that's the case, why have a Federal Government at all?
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/3253580
There you go again, using scare words, now in CAPS, no less. And calling a pig a pig - wasn't that something you guys took offense to when the issue was lipstick on a pig? So give pigs a break. Dogs may look up to us, and cats may look down on us, but only pigs think they are one of us.
If we are trying t o match failures to successes, then you are going to win because numerically there are more success stories than otherwise. However, that doesn't mean that those who do not thrive and aren't successful aren't human, worthy of being treated with humanity. If that is a liberal argument, then color me liberal. The alternative is too horrible to contemplate.
well you are right one thing. Liberal ideology should scare the living crap out of every red blooded american...

But seriously, you're misdirecting an argument, one where you've not been as informed, and two can't really win. Are you really going to argue that government intervention has ever been successful on a large scale level? Are you really going to argue that stuff like social security, medicare and medicaid truly work (I'm not even going to talk about cost)? They're saying that it will run a deficit this year. (something you had missed)
The reality is as it currently stands, government rejects more claims as a percentage than any private insurance company.
Do you really believe that in order to be equitable, we should lower the standards of our society so everyone get screwed equally (minus the friends of the democrat party)? Because that is what you are really arguing for. It isn't so unsuccessful people be treated with humanity.
The simple fact of life is this, people have an insatiable appetite. We don't have unlimited supply. And the most efficient way we as humanity have found to distribute those goods has been the free market. (and in my opinion always will be because people will chose the path of least resistance unless they have a reason too do otherwise) And those historically have been 2 things themselves or family, and religion.
But who am I to point out the obvious.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3253622
What do you call Medicare/Medicaid? GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE. SIGH Try again Veni. You can't use the 10th as your catch-all Amendment for anything the Feds decide to turn into a law. If that's the case, why have a Federal Government at all?
The 10th is intended to prevent the fed grabbing powers not granted in the constitution so it really is a catch all, or at least was intended to be.
Medicare/Medicaid is paying for a service, just like being taxed for street sweeping or sewer. You pay the government and in turn they are providing you health care, at least the hospitalization when you retire.
 
V

vinnyraptor

Guest
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3253332
I dunno know what to tell you. I've just never seen that happen. I can go down the list of Family , with heath problems. And they've been able to afford it, they're all self made and self employed. They're are in the high risk category. My Fatherinlaw has had 4 heart attacks. He works for himself. He's the only employee. And he's out of medical debt. With no insurance. He did it. And he can barily walk. My uncle has had major health problems, his insurance never dropped him. My best friend is in remission from Cancer, that has a 90% recurrance rate in 5 years. He's at 5 years and his insurance never dropped him... And I can list you 5 or 6 more. Quite simply they're taking a a handful of people who don't fit into the system, and using them to destroy the system for Everyone. A typical liberal argument ploy. And quite frankly if you don't believe you could face insurmountable odds and overcome it, then you don't believe in yourself and you don't believe in this great country...
its not gonna destroy the system, its gonna make it better. the system was unsustainable over the long haul and both sides of the aisle agrees on that. the Washington Post has a healthcare calculator, i used it and it appears i will pay about 600 to 1000 less per year for the same plan i have now.
there are always stories of folks overcoming great hardships/odds. but for every one of those stories there are thousands of cases where folks lost nearly everything....
 
veni vidi vici

veni vidi vici

Active Member

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3253622
What do you call Medicare/Medicaid? GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH CARE. SIGH Try again Veni. You can't use the 10th as your catch-all Amendment for anything the Feds decide to turn into a law. If that's the case, why have a Federal Government at all?
You ever hear the expression"The Straw That Broke The Camels Back."?
Well this piece of Legislation was the last peace of Unconstitutional crap that did it.Enough is enough...November 2010
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/3253677
its not gonna destroy the system, its gonna make it better. the system was unsustainable over the long haul and both sides of the aisle agrees on that. the Washington Post has a healthcare calculator, i used it and it appears i will pay about 600 to 1000 less per year for the same plan i have now.
there are always stories of folks overcoming great hardships/odds. but for every one of those stories there are thousands of cases where folks lost nearly everything....
So why don't you explain exactly what is in the bill that deals with the overall sustainability of the system? What cost saving measure is in the bill? Remember even Obama was forced to admit that short term premiums are going up when Eric Cantor called him on it at the health care summit. They HOPE long term people getting better preventative care will lower costs but any saving from that would be at least a decade out.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Ok, to the supporters of this healthcare passage I have a few questions. Let's see how much you guys truly know.
How does adding 900 billion to our budget save us money?
Obama promised not to raise taxes on anyone making less than 250,000 a year, yet this bill does that. Is he a liar?
How does cutting Medicare advantage give better care?
How does this bill bring down the price of insurance premiums?
How does this bill reduce the costs the hospitals charge?
How does this bill guarantee insurance to the currently uninsured?
How does this bill reduce waste?
How does this bill improve the coverage?
How is this bill paid for, and how does it remain solvent in the years to come? (remember this additional 900 billion is supposed to be completely paid for)
How does this bill reduce the costs of prescription?
How does this bill ensure we maintain the level of medical advances in the field we have maintained the last few decades?
How will this bill affect the unemployment rate? The supporters claim it will aid the economy, so please explain how.....besides the new IRS agents that will be needed to monitor our taxes further.
That should be good for a starting point. Lets see if you guys can explain these in detail, instead of repeating the usual sound bites.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/3253681
You ever hear the expression"The Straw That Broke The Camels Back."?
Well this piece of Legislation was the last peace of Unconstitutional crap that did it.Enough is enough...November 2010
You are absolutely correct. The elections in November will be the first indicator to gauge whether people are tired and disgusted with Obama's and the Democrat-led Congress way of doing things. Can these Tea Party groups actually band together and voice their opinions the way they should be voiced, through the electorial vote, or are they just all talk and no action? Historically, less than 20% of the American voters even go out and vote in the 'non-Presidential'/midterm elections. Most of them just vote along party lines, or simply by a name on the ballot. They don't even bother to research the candidate's platform. Pretty much why the majority of Congress is filled with 'lifers' as members.
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3253720
Ok, to the supporters of this healthcare passage I have a few questions. Let's see how much you guys truly know.
How does adding 900 billion to our budget save us money?
I believe the logic behind Obama's statement that this will save us money, is because if we stay status quo and do nothing to change how health care is paid for, that 900 billion would actually be a couple of trillion. So in a twisted sort of way, spending 900 billion is actually saving us money in the long run.
Obama promised not to raise taxes on anyone making less than 250,000 a year, yet this bill does that. Is he a liar?
You'd have to show me in the bill where it references that anyone making less than 250,000 will be accessed an increase in their income tax. Everything I read states that people making over 250,000 would see a 2.9% or 3.9% tax increase, and they'd also see atax put on their investments. Again, I never read where the average citizen who makes less than this would be taxed on their income.
How does cutting Medicare advantage give better care?
Not familiar with the Medicare advantage, so I can't comment on it.
How does this bill bring down the price of insurance premiums?
I honestly don't think the intent of the bill was to reduce insurance premiums across the board. Meaning, people who have existing insurance with their companies shouldn't see much of a change. The people who will see a drop in their premiums are those independents that aren't under some corporate insurance umbrella policy. The one's I would categorize as the 'self insured'.
How does this bill reduce the costs the hospitals charge?
I don't think this was addressed in the bill. However, the insurance companies to wield some power against hospitals regarding their billing practices (ergo why they have these negotiated rates)
How does this bill guarantee insurance to the currently uninsured?
I thought that was the whole premise of this bill. To provide affordable insurance to the 32 million or so people who currently have no insurance.
How does this bill reduce waste?
How does this bill improve the coverage?
How is this bill paid for, and how does it remain solvent in the years to come? (remember this additional 900 billion is supposed to be completely paid for)
How does this bill reduce the costs of prescription?
How does this bill ensure we maintain the level of medical advances in the field we have maintained the last few decades?
How will this bill affect the unemployment rate? The supporters claim it will aid the economy, so please explain how.....besides the new IRS agents that will be needed to monitor our taxes further.
That should be good for a starting point. Lets see if you guys can explain these in detail, instead of repeating the usual sound bites.
replies in bold
 
bionicarm

bionicarm

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3253720
Ok, to the supporters of this healthcare passage I have a few questions. Let's see how much you guys truly know.
How does adding 900 billion to our budget save us money?
Obama promised not to raise taxes on anyone making less than 250,000 a year, yet this bill does that. Is he a liar?
How does cutting Medicare advantage give better care?
How does this bill bring down the price of insurance premiums?
How does this bill reduce the costs the hospitals charge?
How does this bill guarantee insurance to the currently uninsured?
How does this bill reduce waste?
Not sure it does. I think one misconception is that people think the government is the one running the insurance business. They are only providing 'insurance pools' for people who are uninsured to BUY affordable insurance. I have to read the full bill, but they will only subsidize insurance for the poverty-level individuals who can't even afford the 'pool' insurance. That's where I think the 900 billion will go. So I guess if these insurance pools aren't managed like our current Medicare system, some waste will be reduced. But it'll be based on the efficiency of the insurance providers, not the Feds.
How does this bill improve the coverage?
Couldn't tell you yet. I haven't seen an example of what is going to be covered in one of these insurance plans these 'pools' are going to provide.
How is this bill paid for, and how does it remain solvent in the years to come? (remember this additional 900 billion is supposed to be completely paid for)
Supposed to paid by this additiuonal tax put on the 250,000+ crowd, plus the premiums paid by the individuals buying into these low-cost insurance pools they talk about.
How does this bill reduce the costs of prescription?
Were prescriptions mentioned in the bill? My prescription coverage is part of my regular health insurance. It comes from the same provider. I don't have a seperate prescription coverage.
How does this bill ensure we maintain the level of medical advances in the field we have maintained the last few decades?
Thought I read somewhere they were going to include grants and funding for people wanting to go into the medical profession in this bill. Isn't that part of the student aid package?
How will this bill affect the unemployment rate? The supporters claim it will aid the economy, so please explain how.....besides the new IRS agents that will be needed to monitor our taxes further.
Supposedly the insurance companies say they will need to hire additional people to help with getting these 32 million people policies and provide assistance once they get insurance. More jobs in the medical professions? There's already a major shortage in the number of primary care physicians and nurses. If the college kids can get some financial aid to assist with the hugh tuition bills they face, you would see an large influx into that industry.
That should be good for a starting point. Lets see if you guys can explain these in detail, instead of repeating the usual sound bites.
other comments in bold
 
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