How best to add a Refugium to my sump

[adurost]

I've got a 90G FOWLR DT. Nitrates are running 40-80 and I would like to bring them down. Building refugium and growing macro algea (cheato?) has been the common suggestion and I would like to know how best to do it with my current sump: a 20G L with an acrylic box containing bio-balls, some rock rubble, and a Mag 9.5 return pump. Can I simply add more rubble rock, the macro algea and a light?

 

[adurost]

Forgot to add the picture!

 

[spanko]

Are you willing to shut this down for a day to install baffles?

 

[nissan577]

if you have power heads. you can turn off the pump and have the power heads running and your able to work on the sump.

 

[adurost]

Tell me what I need to do!! I have 2 Koralia 3 in the DT. BTW, I have a HOB overflow w/ U-tubes and 2 bulkheads.

 

[spanko]

Here is a good picture to use to adapt what you have.

 

[adurost]

Ok... Let me see if I understand this correctly:
1) A set of 3 baffles to separate the return pump from the refugium - How do you determine their height? Would setting the top of the 2 identical ones at the current (operating) water level of my sump be a good idea? How much space in between each one?
2) Baffle separating LR rubble from refugium - Is that a perforated baffle? What filters out food particles, etc that get swept into the overlfow? Can I just use the existing acrylic box w/bio-balls and filter on the trickle tray?
3) Fuge has a DSB - Does it have to have a sand bed or can I just put rubble and macro algea in that section?
4) HOB overflow - Single bulkhead? Looks like a CPR w/auto-siphon in the diagram; is that a better overflow than an Eshopps w/u-tubes (what I have)?
Thanks for the feedback.

 

[spanko]

Okay I have given you an option to add a refugium to your existing sump. Before we get into the real nitty gritty, some questions first on my mind are,
1. What have you tried so far to lower your nitrates?
2. Why are they at that level (which I understand may not be all that bad for a FOWLR tank)?
3. What is your current filtration - biological - mechanical - chemical?
4. What does the fish population consist of?
5. What and how often are you feeding these critters?
6. What does your clean up crew consist of?
7. I did not see a skimmer on your picture of your existing sump, do you have one hanging on the tank?
7. What is your cleaning schedule (including the bioballs, filter mediums, etc. etc.) and water change schedule?
I ask these questions so that we all can get a better understanding of what you are dealing with and to give you some options on how to control your nitrates possibly without additional work to your sump.

 

[adurost]

Henry,First off, thanks very much for taking the time to chat with me about my tank. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your expertise. And please forgive me if I ask 'stupid' questions. I'm a stay-at-home military spouse & mom who currently lives in Hawaii (so I can't always get everything that is readily available on the mainland), and about 11 months from now I will be moving back to the mainland at which time the tank will be sold or broken down to ship (I'm leaning toward selling it and so I can get a bigger tank and set-up a reef tank wherever we end up next). I've been a SW hobbyist for only 1yr and I want to learn and do things right, but I also have a limited budget and I don't want to put a lot of $ into something I'm not going to have longterm.This 90G tank has been running for 3 months. I use treated tap water (which tests Nitrates at approx 15 ppm), and yes, I am in the process of getting a RO/DI. Nitrates were at 20 ppm after cycling, and have consistently tested at 40 ppm with an occaisional spike to 80 ppm immediately after adding a new fish. Last week the yellow tang that I recently acquired developed some reddish streaks and I asked for help here on the; along with a diagnosis I was told that I should address my nitrate problem and plan a more natural filtration. So, here I am...
1. What have you tried so far to lower your nitrates? Water changes and cleaning filter pad & bio-balls.
2. Why are they at that level (which I understand may not be all that bad for a FOWLR tank)? That is what I had read as well, but a couple of the experts here have told me that they are too high and I really should work at lowering them.
3. What is your current filtration - biological - mechanical - chemical? approx 75 lbs LR and 1-2" silica sand in DT, 5-6 pieces rock rubble in sump, skimmer box w/HOB overflow feeding wet/dry filter (blue filter pad sits over trickle plate and bio-balls), Mag 9.5 return pump and 2 Koralia 3 for approx 2500 GPH flow. I have PhosBan but I have not used it yet.
4. What does the fish population consist of?
4 green chromis
2 2" ocellaris clown
1 royal gramma
1 lawnmower blenny
1 4-5" yellow tang (temporarily in QT)
1 3" blue hippo tang (just added to DT)
1 cleaner wrasse (just added to DT)
1 hawaiian feather duster
5. What and how often are you feeding these critters?
Had been feeding a 2X daily small amount (fish ate in 1-2 minutes) Ocean Nutrition Reef Flakes & Formula II pellets, clip w/romaine lettuce, and 1X week 1 cube frozen brine shrimp. Was told end of last week told that this diet wasn't nutritious enough for YT in particular, so now I'm feeding a mix of 1/2 cube Emerald Entree+1/2 cube mysis or brine shrimp+fresh garlic+Vitachem 2X daily, and clip w/nori.
6. What does your clean up crew consist of?
5 Hawaiian Turbo snails
10 granulated drupe (I thought they were nassarius snails, but just recently discovered they're not, so they're going back)
1 halloween hermit
9 zebra hermits
4 sea hares
3 snake head cowrie
7. I did not see a skimmer on your picture of your existing sump, do you have one hanging on the tank? No skimmer. Have read and received conflicting opinions about adding one; some say it will help, others say it won't make any difference in nitrates... There is an availability/financial obstacle to purchasing a quality skimmer right now (i.e. not stocked at LFS on island, and require additional $50-75 to ship to Hawaii), but I am looking regularly on CL for a used one.
8. What is your cleaning schedule (including the bioballs, filter mediums, etc. etc.) and water change schedule? I had been doing a 15G WC 2X month at which time I rinsed the filter pad (in the old dirty water), and 1X month I rinse 1/3 bioballs and replace the filter pad. Beth recommended doing a daily 2G WC, but didn't address how frequently to rinse the filter media. My husband built hofler gurgle busters for the overflow box, and I've noticed a sediment beginning to build around the 2 bulkheads that I am sure should be cleaned out.
Whew!

Thanks for your help!

 

[spanko]

We are all here just to help and enjoy doing so.
First off let me say thank you to you and your family for your service. I can only imagine the strain on you that there must be having your husband away, running the household, taking care of the children and on top of all of that trying your bet to keep a saltwater aquarium. You are to be commended!!!!
For your tank yes you should work to get the nitrates down for the health of the system. Some nitrates are not going to be harmful in the fish only system you have so let's just try to get them down to a manageable level without having to spend your children's inheritance on the process of doing so.
If this were my tank the first thing I would do is to increase the water change schedule to at least 10% per week. Unfortunately your tap water is going to continue to add 15ppm back each time but eventually you should see some reduction in the nitrates from the dilution of doing the water changes. Just before doing a water change take a (spend a couple of bucks at the dollar store here) new turkey baster and blow it on the rockwork to get some of the detritus that is accumulating there up into the water column so that it can be removed during the water change and then by the filter when you are done.
At water change time each week I would also do the rinsing of the filter pad in the removed water from the tank getting all of the gunk rinsed off. For the bioballs I would increase the rinsing of 1/3 of them every 2 weeks. Rinse 1/3 this week at water change, do the water change next week but don't rinse any of the balls, then the next week at water change rinse another 1/3.
Sounds like all in all you are doing a great job here. Just a little tweaking on the husbandry and I believe you will see some stabilization then decline in your nitrate levels.
Of course the best thing you can do to aid the above is to get the RODi unit or to get some RO water from you local fish store or even some distilled from the grocery store, but I understand all things in time when it comes to the money available.
I also don't see listed any powerheads in the tank. If you don't have any one put in here will help to get some flow going and maybe keep more of the detritus suspended so that between water changes the filters can do a better job.
Just some ideas for you without breaking the already fragile bank. Let's see what some others say here.

 

[adurost]

Thanks for the encouragment. I didn't put all that in there for sympathy or anything, I just wanted you to know where I was coming from.

I did forget to the mention the powerheads (2 Koralia 3), so I edited the list above to include them so that all the info is concise and in one place.
I calculated the system volume to be approx 100G (90G in DT + 10G in sump), so a 10G weekly WC will suffice? Or would 15G be better? I have a turkey baster for the tank already (I've used it to blow sand off the LR once or twice shortly after I added the sand). Is it better to remove water from the DT or the sump, or does it make a difference? My last tank was a 33G with gravel substrate, undergravel filter and HOB power filter, so having the sump is relatively new to me. I used to vacuum section of the gravel in the old tank at each WC; should I vacuum the sand at all? What about the sediment in the overflow box? Will that eventually disappear (like the shrimp I used to cycle the tank) or should I clean it out somehow?
I am totally open to building a refugium if that is the best route (after switching to RO/DI water!), I'd just like to use as much of what I already have (if possible) in order to keep costs down. Honestly, I don't even know if I'll be able to find cheato to put in a fuge for sale here.... There haven't been any snails at the LFS this summer; the CUC I do have I've collected myself.

 

[spanko]

15 weekly would of course be better, we want to dilute the nitrates here. I would remove the water from the display so that when you blow on the rockwork with the turkey baster you are getting some of the detritus out with the water change. I would not vacuum the sand but others may have a different opinion here. I woudl use the siphon hose you do water changes with to siphon the sediment in the overflow box. It will not disappear. I would start off with this stuff first, then when you move make the changes to the sump if you end up keeping this system. I think you will see a good overall improvement in the nitrate levels just doing these simple things then the RODI unit will really help.

 

[adurost]

All that is definitely doable! I'll let you know in a month or two if it made an appreciable difference, and we can move on from there if necessary. Thanks again!
BTW, this is my DT. No live coral since you can't legally buy them here; the coral bones were given to me when I bought the tank.

 

[spanko]

Looks nice and clean. Makes me wonder if your trates are really as high as you think. How old is your test kit? Have you taken a water sample to you local fish store to verify your reading against theirs?
Just hate to see you chasing a ghost is this is possibly one.

 

[salt210]

you could try adding more LR in the sump in the compartment beside the return pump.
side note: you cant buy coral in Hawaii?

 

[adurost]

Originally Posted by salt210
http:///forum/post/3123660
you could try adding more LR in the sump in the compartment beside the return pump.
side note: you cant buy coral in Hawaii?
The only LR for sale at LFS here is Molokai'i LR (basically DIY rock that has been put in a hawaiian 'fish pond' to grow) at $6-7/lb. I almost had a heart attack when I bought 35 lbs to get my tank started! Every once in a while I'll see on CL that someone is breaking down their tank and willing to sell their LR cheap, but not very often, and it goes fast. I'm on the lookout for it though as it is illegal to take any rock or coral from the ocean.
And yeah, no reef tanks in Hawaii except for the Aquariums in Waikiki and on Maui... I guess they figure you can go diving or snorkeling if you want to see a reef! They have really strict import restrictions/laws here. And don't get me started about the shipping expense!!

 

[adurost]

Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/3123657
Looks nice and clean. Makes me wonder if your trates are really as high as you think. How old is your test kit? Have you taken a water sample to you local fish store to verify your reading against theirs?
Just hate to see you chasing a ghost is this is possibly one.
Well that's good I guess! Would you expect to see a lot more algea in a tank with high Nitrates? I don't have the best lighting right now (only 2 out of 4 65W PC bulbs running presently), but I do have some diatom bloom on the sand and base rock that didn't show up really well in the picture. The longer the lights are on, the more brown the sand looks, but if I gently stir the surface of the sand it goes away for a day or two.
I bought a new API Saltwater Master test kit in June; there are no expiration dates on the reagent bottles, just lot numbers. I haven't asked my LFS to test my water, but I will do that this weekend as a double check on my test results. How soon after removing the water from the tank does it need to be tested?

 

[spanko]

In your circumstance I would test just before the water change - cleaning and then about 2 hours after.