hyposalinity

[h2oski]

I lowered the salinity in my 75 gallon tank 2 weeks ago to fight Ich. It went through a period where all the fish got a white film that cleared up in about a week. Now the film is coming back. Is this second attack due to eggs that were in the tank and hatched? Should I be concerned that this round is immune to hyposalinity, or will it eventually die too?

 

[h2oski]

P.S.- the second attack is not nearly as bad as the first.

 

[beth]

White slimy film usually spells a bacterial problem.

 

[beth]

I'm going to move your post over to the Disease Forum, where you might get more specific help.

 

[h2oski]

Over the course of a week I lowered the salinity to 1.009. The only fish affected now is a Volitan lion. He still eats from my hand and has not decreased in activity(from his usual low level. The film is opaque white and is on the tail fins.

 

[pufferlover]

As I posted in other posts I have done the hypo salinity thing 3 times over the last few months in 3 tanks I was having problems with. In all 3 cases at .1009 nothing changed at .1007 everything changed and the fish in all 3 tanks became cured and have stayed that way since they were raised back to normal readings. If you catch the problem fast enough so you have the few days needed to drop the salinity it does work.

 

[beth]

Fortunatly for me, I have not had parasitic problems in a very long time, way before the hyposalinity method became standard in the hobby. I have read that fish do get energized as you state, Terry, but I wonder if this is a positive energy or if, in fact, that it is the kind of energy that you frequently see in sick fish who are uncomfortable or stressed. And if it the energy is due to stress, is it the hypo or the disease process.
Puffer, you did use hypo for queit awhile there, did you notice energized fish with this?
Opinions you all?
Parasitic treatment is always risky business whether you use toxic meds or hypo. And like the meds for parasites, the goal with hypo is to lower salinity enough to kill the parasite, but save the fish. Are fish adversely effected by hypo? Yeah, I think so, just as they are by formaldehyde and copper--but hopefully the ill effects of the treatment is much preferable than the end result of the protozoa investation--which is death if left untreated.

 

[krustytheclownfish]

Terry- You said that the S.G. for hyposalinity should be at 1.009 to 1.010 depending on the temp. The question is what should the temp. be at? Also, since hyposalinity helps fish to use less energy, wouldn't it make sense to permanently keep the S.G. lower or would that lead to problems in the long run?

 

[jimi]

H20SKI what are you using to measure your salinity? If your using a hydrometer you are probably not where you should be. I used hyposalinity in Jan to treat a stubborn case on my powder blue it worked fantasic and was well tollerated by all my fish. The salinity was kept between 1.007 and 1.009,using a refractometer, and ph and alk checked or buffered alot.

 

[pufferlover]

Ok in answer to the question poset to me by terry the temp in the tank is left at approx 78 degrees. Now for what I use I will admit as I did once before that I use a swing needle gauge (which I know is not the best to use). My lfs did get a refractometer and he tested his and my 2 gauges and came up with some of his being off by 2 points and my 2 being accurate. In any case I use both of mine to check against each other and as I stated when mine said .1009 I did not get results (fish still spotted days after .1009 reached) so I went to .1007 which I had read a while back in a periodical which stated .1007 was where to be. Once I hit .1007 according to my gauges within 3 days the fish were completely clean. In the 3 cases I did this I then left it there (checking each day and adding freshwater to keep it there) for 4 weeks before starting to raise it back to normal levels. In every case the fish have stayed clean and I lost no one I tried this on (Dogface Puffer, Snowflake Eel also was in tank and left there, Maroon Clown, Yellow Coris Wrasse, Cleaner Wrasse also left in tank). I only tried this method after reading posts by Beth in regards to it few months back. I asked her for some e mail help to do it and she kindly helped me the first time.
Now as I have said before I do not have the knowledge that some of you have but relate what my personal experiences have found. If I did not now believe this is a good treatment I would not open my mouth, but it works and is worth considering if fo tank is involved.
Oh also the fish did not seem more hyper to me altho they seemed more inclined to eat more food. I did not notice any heavy breathing during the 4 weeks. I was concerned about leaving the eel in the one tank but it did just fine and now has grown quite a bit since then.
[ June 17, 2001: Message edited by: Pufferlover ]

 

[fat_ed]

Terry,
If hyposalinity does not affect the parasites attached to the fish, then why do freshwater dips cause the parasites to visibly drop off the host fish? Doesn't hyposalinity employ the same principle of osmotic pressure as freshwater dips, simply to a lesser extreme? It seems to me that if hyposalinity is geared toward a single stage in the life cycle of the parasite, it runs the risk of encouraging mutant strains that could withstand lower salinity.
Then again, I only took one Bio class in college, so what do I know?
[ June 18, 2001: Message edited by: Fat_Ed ]
[ June 18, 2001: Message edited by: Fat_Ed ]

 

[h2oski]

The ich is no longer the problem in my tank, it the white film that appears on the fish. The ich was cleared up at about the same time that the first round of the film cleared (the film covered the whole body, and as it cleared is appeared to peel off and drag behind the fish until it was off). I assumed that the film was also a parasite. I need to know what to do about the secord round. This time it is much, much less severe, but does not seem to be clearing. The lion is the only fish in the tank.

 

[goldfish]

Trey, do you own your own store or are you an aquarist just by hobby?

 

[jimi]

Trey I am not trying to really get in this but as you know I really dont like dips. While you have had great success with them you were dealing with large volumes of fish so statisticaly the dips may have saved many but I dont believe you never saw a fish die from a dip, not that you said that. I think someone like the new or home aquarist has a much higher chance at killing their fish with constant dips then you do. Dips are definately stressful if not done COMPLETELY correctly. Instant pressure change is not good

 

[beth]

Too much valuable info here and a noteworthy debate regarding fish treatment for this thread to get deleted...as long as we can keep it civil, no flaming, we are fine so far.
And I for one, not having the exp as either Terry or Trey, don't like dips. But, I do agree, that when things are hopeless, then a dip is in order--as what do you have to loose? Additionally, I agree with Jimi. If you are in business selling fish, then mass dipping makes sense and is even the viable and responsible thing to do. However, for a home hobbyist, this is a very hard thing to do to a valuable pet that you care about.
But, again, the info here, once we get passed all the competitiveness going on, is very good.

 

[pufferlover]

Have to agree with Beth this back and forth is very interesting. I do not claim anywhere near the level of insight some of you do but I do think this is the best coverage this subject has ever had. Now the hobbiest has to decide which is the way they should go based on what they read from those giving their ideas. I as a hobbiest am like Beth said fearful of dipping (the one time I tried it I blew it big time) but I agree done right it can be the answer.

 

[fish&chips]

I know I'm deviating a bit (but not much) from the ongoing discussion (moderators, feel free to add this as a new post or otherwise move it), but I am in the process of setting up a new tank after an initial rough start into the hobby. I've learned my lessons and am reading everything I can get my hands on. To that end, I am attempting to come up with a "new fish" assimilation routine to prevent introducing a diseased fish to the main tank. This is what I have come up with:
Let's assume the following:
a) we have a "proper" Q-tank set-up.
b) we introduce or assimilate the newly acquired fish properly to the Q-tank on day 1.
c) there are no "apparent" signs of disease but "treat" the fish nevertheless.
With these assumptions, this is my suggested approach:
1) Day 1, set salinity level at the same level of the tank in which the fish came from, else set to 1.020. Feed fish garlic-soaked food. Make sure the fish is eating before proceeding to step 2.
2) Day 2 & 3, Begin reducing salinity. Make two water changes a day to reach therapeutic levels by day 4. Continue w/ garlic
3) Day 4, 1.007-1.009 salinity level reached
5) Days 5-21, maintain salinity level and continue feeding garlic, add Zoecon soaked food to "one" of the daily feedings.
6) Days 21-28, If fish is clear of disease and otherwise healthy begin increasing salinity to match main tank levels
7) Day 28, move to main tank following proper assimilation process.
If disease visibly manifests or is otherwise "still visible" after Day 5 then resort to appropriate meds (copper) and/or f/w dip "depending" on the diagnose of the disease and severity of the fish's condition.
COMMENTS? SUGGESTIONS? IMPROVEMENTS? LAUGHTER?
Those using Garlic - do you continue feeding garlic to the fish in your main tank on a regular baisis? If so, on what kind of schedule?
Thanks!
[ June 20, 2001: Message edited by: Fish&Chips ]
[ June 20, 2001: Message edited by: Fish&Chips ]

 

[pufferlover]

My goodness it goes on and on, but between the 2 of you there has been some great info put out there for members and that is a good thing. You both seem to have knowledge that is way beyond us mortals (lol) but it is helpful to those who are interested in the whys and what ifs. Anyway I did see something in terry's post I have to ask about. Terry you said taking the salinity down very fast is not a bad thing (I will stop here and mention that Trey also said that in one of his posts to me a while back, and the logic he gave me made sense). My question here tho is how fast did they drop it in say a days time. I had been under the impression that 2 or 3 points a day was more then enough and now I wonder are they saying more in one swipe can be more effective.

 

[fish&chips]

Thanks for the response Trey. Could you clarify your statement of:
"I only recently changed my opinion on garlic, so I have to admit..."
Are you now a supporter of it's use? or not?
Thanks!

 

[@knight]

As with any field of science there are various oppinions out there with varrying results. It has been posted that everyone does things there own way and there are different methods that work for different reefkeepers.
I have seen many sharks question the findings and publications of Dr. Ron Shimek, but some will follow his research to the letter, others will find his method does not work for them.
I think this kind of debate should be encouraged, not for the sake of arguing, but look at this post and look at every other post. There is AT LEAST 10x the information on this thread than any other that ive seen in a long time. The funny thing is they both MAY be correct.
I highly respect both Trey and Terry. I agree more with trey because his advice in the past has DIRECTLY improved my reef and my fish and because of him I have saved a couple hundred dollars on livestock alone.
He has provwen to me and other members on this board (as well as ALL sharks) that the advice he gives is 100% true.
[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Beth ]