Newbie needs help before it is too late!!

[milwaukeem]

Hello everyone I know I have posted some questions in other threads but I am a newbie so I figured I would just put out everything here that I am currently experiencing... Ok here it goes:
I set up my tank exactly two weeks ago, I have a 60 gallon tank with 40 pounds of live wet sand, 30 pounds of base rock, Emperor 400 filter, basic lightning system, pushed tank cycle with Turbo Start 900, Pro Heat IC Aquarium Heater, Coral Life Digital Thermometer, and R/O water for top offs.... Now keep in mind everything I am saying here is based on what my LFS advised me to do.... Being brand new to this one would think that would be the smart thing to do.... Ok now after setting up the tank, four days after I went into the store to get my water tested... Everything came back perfect, PH was right, Salt was good, etc... So they said it was good to go so at that time I purchased a juvenile Koran Angelfish & a medium sized Foxface Rabbit fish.... I took them home acclimated them and they both appeared to take to the tank very well..... That was Tuesday last week, then Friday I purchased a Percula Clown, also water tested that day wsa fine as well.... So all three fish were living so it seemed happily so this past Wednesday I purchased a Red General Starfish along with10 Blue Legged hermit Crabs & 10 other kind of Crabs I frget the name of them.... That is the day everything started to go down hill.... After acclimating the starfish an hour later I fed the fish... An noticed my Koran not coming out for feeding like he normally did... Over the past week he started losing some of his color, but the fish store said it wasnt anything to worry about, they said he could be sressed from adapting to it new enviroment... But later that Wednesday night he started to swim sideways, lay down sideways on the sand, lean on rocks, etc but at the same time he would do that he would go back into swimming normal.... It being 10 at night no stores open to get advice from... So I monitored him till about 1am then I had to go to bed, when I woke up in the morning I watched him a little while before I went to work about 830am he appeared to be doing better than the night before but I still called the fish store latr that morning when they opened up to explain what was going on with him... The guy advised me to continue to monitor him over the next 24 hours and if no change we will go from there.. Also I took a water sample up there that day and water tested fine... Well later that afternoon my fiance came home and he was dead... I took him and another water sample up to the store... They checked him out and did notice where he got nipped twice and his death was accounted to be stressed from being bullyied by the oxface because there were no signs of any diesase...
Ok now for the clown... now looking ack he started to behave weird about the same time of the Koran by swimming at the very top of the water constantly and swimming randomly like he did when I first put him in... Also he never really took to feeding either.. I never personally saw him eat... Well yesterday (Friday) I came home an he was dead.. So again I took the fish and a water sample up to the fish store... No signs of violence to him... The water tested fine again... The guy came up with the conculsion that somethng ould be in the tank that could not be tested fro example if air freshner was sprayed in the room and some got in the tank, or something on my hand or arm and me putting them in the tank... So reccomended Matrix Carbon a high efficientcy spherical Carbon and Purigen Ultimate filteration to put in my filter because it will evaporate what ever is in there that should not be in there, if anything at all is in there.....
Well now today my Foxface is acting abnormal.. Not eating and appearing stressed most of the time with his blotchy black spots and fins up.... Not really swimming but floating around or just hiding... Sometimes swimming slanted... So I am getting the impression that he will soon be dying.... I want to do whatever I can to try and sve him and figure out what is going on with my tank... Also since Starfish dont have a tremendous amount of movement what can I look for to see if he is doing ok??? I would appreciate any advise, help, thanks to all those who take the time to read all this I know it is very long.... Hope to hear fro someone before it is too late.....

 

[sac10918]

I think two weeks is not nearly long enough to establish a stable enough system for fish. Im no expert, but it sounds to me like you rushed things a bit. I think it was way too soon for you to be adding any fish. Did you have any live rock? Did you let it cycle properly? You really should purchase a test kit and test your water your self. Sometimes the LFS dont test for all the things that need to be tested. IT will be hard for anybody on this site to offer you advice unless you can tell them exactly what your readings are.
As for your foxface, is it possible for you to return him? If it is, I would suggest this because it seems to me that he is likely to die. There is some problem with your tank, even if the LFS says your water is perfect. I would suggest starting off a little bit slower. You should have added the live rock and sand, waited patiently for it to cycle (I know its hard to wait!) rather than pushing the cycle, and then after all your levels are zero, you should add your clean up crew of hermits and such. Then, several weeks after this, you can add one fish. Wait for your tank to adjust to this new increase in waste from the fish, then in a few more weeks (some say even a month) you can add another fish. Fish add a lot of bio load to your tank and it sounds like your tank just wasn't ready.
Dont worry, we all mess up somewhere along the lines. It sounds like maybe your LFS was pushing you into the tank too quickly in order to make a buck.
Does anyone else have some advice?

 

[dmjordan]

Originally Posted by sac10918
I think two weeks is not nearly long enough to establish a stable enough system for fish. Im no expert, but it sounds to me like you rushed things a bit. I think it was way too soon for you to be adding any fish. Did you have any live rock? Did you let it cycle properly? You really should purchase a test kit and test your water your self. Sometimes the LFS dont test for all the things that need to be tested. IT will be hard for anybody on this site to offer you advice unless you can tell them exactly what your readings are.
As for your foxface, is it possible for you to return him? If it is, I would suggest this because it seems to me that he is likely to die. There is some problem with your tank, even if the LFS says your water is perfect. I would suggest starting off a little bit slower. You should have added the live rock and sand, waited patiently for it to cycle (I know its hard to wait!) rather than pushing the cycle, and then after all your levels are zero, you should add your clean up crew of hermits and such. Then, several weeks after this, you can add one fish. Wait for your tank to adjust to this new increase in waste from the fish, then in a few more weeks (some say even a month) you can add another fish. Fish add a lot of bio load to your tank and it sounds like your tank just wasn't ready.
Dont worry, we all mess up somewhere along the lines. It sounds like maybe your LFS was pushing you into the tank too quickly in order to make a buck.
Does anyone else have some advice?

You should always put new fish in a QT tank for a few weeks before adding them to your main tank. You should also add fish slowly to your tank. I wait 3 weeks after I add something to my tank before I add anything else. You definitely need LR in your tank.

 

[saltwater8]

Check your starfish....
I am not sure one hour was long enough to acclimate a starfish, most sites say at least 3 hours for acclimation, if you look at this site it says 3+ hours. The drip acclimation method is highly recommended for all Sea Stars due to their intolerability to changes in water chemistry.
If a starfish is stressed it produces a poisonous substance that will kill your other fish.
It seems as though your tank was fine until you added him....
Let us know.
BTW, great choice in a starfish, I had one a few years ago, sold the tank. I am going to get another one - its probably the best looking starfish I have seen.
:happyfish

 

[milwaukeem]

Acclimation for the starfish was a little over two hours..... The part about an hour was that I fed the fish an hour after acclimating the star.... Well I took the Foxface back to the store... See i asked them about cycling and everything and they advised that the Turbo Start would do it for me so I didnt have to go through weeks of cycling... Now I am seeing that I should have.... My PH is at 8.2, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0, Salt 1.021. No in the event the starfsh did let something poisonous into my tank how can I remedy this? He is the only thing in my tank that seems to be fine... Eating and moving actively... As far as I can tell there is no strange behavior with him... He pretty much moves around the glass of the tank.... I do have to agree the tank seemed to be fine until the day he was added... To Saltwater8 I absolutely agree he is the best looking star around, even though he possibly killed my other fish??? So any suggestions on the type of other tests I can run on the water? I do have my own water testing kit that test the norm PH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, and I have a hydrometer to test my salt levels.... Everytime the water was tested at the store i tested it at home first... Tests were practically identical... The thing that concerns me the most now is the possible poisen substance that the star could have released and what steps I need to take now... I am going to go with everyone's advise on here to let the tank cycle... The starfish will be the only thing in there besides the blue legged hermit crabs... Does everyone agree LR is a must for a new tank? If so how much? I currently have 30lbs of base rock??? Thanks again everyone for you r help....

 

[wax32]

Originally Posted by Saltwater8
If a starfish is stressed it produces a poisonous substance that will kill your other fish.

???

 

[milwaukeem]

One other question.... In the event you have to put youhnd/arm into your tank for any reason should you a. wash your hand with soap & water b. just rince them with hot water? I just rinse my hands/arm with hot water before doing any work in the tank.. Would this be correct to avoid adding impurities t the tank?

 

[wax32]

Are you testing your water yourself at this point?
I ask because I find it hard to believe your ammonia is 0. If it is, you must have somehow contaminated your water with something that doesn't show up on tests... Fish usually don't just die when your water is "fine".

 

[sac10918]

Hey there....
The best way to clear the water of any potential toxins from the star would be to do some water changes. How do you get your salt water, do you mix it youself or buy it from somewhere? If you mix it yourself, make sure to use reverso osmossis water and when you mix it, do it in a brand new bucket and add a pump to aerate it for 24 hours. THen make sure that the temp of the new water is the exact same as the tank water, as well as the specific gravity. A swing in temp or salinity could cause the star to release more toxins.
As far as live rock, I believe the amount is 1-1.5 ibs of live rock per gallon capacity of the aquarium. For a 60 gallon aquarium, go with 60-90 pounds. When you put it in the tank, set it up the way you want it. Then add a frozen cocktail shrimp to get the cycle going. This will cause a cycle in the tank. First your ammonia levels will spike (which will most likely kill anything in the tank (especially the star) then nitrites, then nitrates. Once all these levels read zero, you should wait another week just to be sure, and then you can add your clean up crew. Let these guys be in the tank for a while. Then in about 2 weeks, you can add one fish, maybe a clown. Like others have said, wait at least 3-4 weeks in between your fish additions. I know its hard to be patient, but its worth the wait to have a stable system and not come home to any fish deaths!
As far as rinsing your arm, I wouldnt use soap. I think soap residue would be much more harmful to your system than whatever is on your arm. I think rinsing your arm really well with hot water should work just fine. SOrry for your loses with the fish, but you are doing right by trying to fix the problem and for taking the foxface back to the store.

 

[milwaukeem]

Ok see I am getting different responses from here versus people at the store... The Turbo Start 900's whole purpose is to cycle the tank or so I been told and whenasking about the frozen cocktail shrimp I was told not to do tha if I was using the Turbo Start??? Also yes I have a water testing kit and testing the water myself in addition to the store testing it two opinions are better than one.... Well I havent done any water changes since the tank is only two weeks old... But when I do have to do one I will be using premixed water..... Now I do use R/O Water to top off with....
Well this is what I plan on doing.... Now that I have taken back the Foxface... I am left with the Starfish who ironically seems like he started the problems since everything was fine before he enter the tank..... Anyway I have removed most of the left behind food, obviously I coudlnt get every piece out... So hopefully my cleaning crew will take care of it... I am running the addition filter pieces Matrix Carbon & Purigen Ultimate Filtration, I think I should do a water change just in case the star did release something into the tank.. How much of a change should I do? And how many times? Then once that is done I am going to allow my tank three weeks of just running and testing the water before intoducing some damsels into it... I figure I will start with cheap fish instead of taking a risk with the more expensive fish.... This experiencing has definitly taught me patients is EVERYTHING in this hobby!! So now I just want to take my time and correct the problem and get everything..... You know a voice in the back of my mind was saying that it seemed like eveything was going to easy???
So since the star appears to be fine should I and possibly going to make it through this ordeal any tips on what o do with him? Should I leave him in there in hopes he makes it or what?

 

[milwaukeem]

Also question about water cycles.... What exactly am I looking for during the cycle and how will I know when the cycle is complete??? Is there anything specific in the tank to look for? Or is it all in testing the water?? Is there anything besides testing the salt, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and PH levels that I should be testing for?

 

[aufishman]

Originally Posted by MilwaukeeM
Ok see I am getting different responses from here versus people at the store... The Turbo Start 900's whole purpose is to cycle the tank or so I been told and whenasking about the frozen cocktail shrimp I was told not to do tha if I was using the Turbo Start??? Also yes I have a water testing kit and testing the water myself in addition to the store testing it two opinions are better than one.... Well I havent done any water changes since the tank is only two weeks old... But when I do have to do one I will be using premixed water..... Now I do use R/O Water to top off with....
Well this is what I plan on doing.... Now that I have taken back the Foxface... I am left with the Starfish who ironically seems like he started the problems since everything was fine before he enter the tank..... Anyway I have removed most of the left behind food, obviously I coudlnt get every piece out... So hopefully my cleaning crew will take care of it... I am running the addition filter pieces Matrix Carbon & Purigen Ultimate Filtration, I think I should do a water change just in case the star did release something into the tank.. How much of a change should I do? And how many times? Then once that is done I am going to allow my tank three weeks of just running and testing the water before intoducing some damsels into it... I figure I will start with cheap fish instead of taking a risk with the more expensive fish.... This experiencing has definitly taught me patients is EVERYTHING in this hobby!! So now I just want to take my time and correct the problem and get everything..... You know a voice in the back of my mind was saying that it seemed like eveything was going to easy???
So since the star appears to be fine should I and possibly going to make it through this ordeal any tips on what o do with him? Should I leave him in there in hopes he makes it or what?

It sounds like the people at your LFS are much more worried about making money then they are giving you proper advice. That "quick start" stuff is snake oil. No reputable LFS is going to sell you all your tank start up stuff and tell you your tank is "good to go" to add all that stock after only 3 days. No amount of high dollar equipment or "quick start" magic is better than patience. You need to read up on the nitrogen cycle, and why it's important. This is the key to success when setting up a new system.

Don't get in a hurry, and take every piece of advice your LFS gives you with a grain of salt. You seem to be on track now, unfortunately it looks like you had to learn the hard way.

 

[shrimpdady]

It would appear that your cycle is already complete if ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are all reading 0 after having 3 fish in the tank for a couple of weeks.

 

[drewsta]

That LFS was pulling you by the short strings... sorry to say

. I rushed my cycle a little but my LR was pulled from a tank that had been established for several years. YES you need live rock its a natural biological filter read up on the BERLIN process. Your tank most likely had not even cycled before you added your fish, so your fish created waste (detritis) and basically started the cycle or maybe started another cycle with adding so many fish at once (check your ammonia levels). Read up on tank cycles! Good luck

 

[j-bird]

First of all, you deffinitely need to get some LR in the tank, this is a natural biological filter and will help to keep your water levels constant. You want 1-1.5 lbs of LR for every gallon, a 60g will put you at 60-90lbs. You have a good start with the base rock you already have in there. You need to add the LR to the tank on top of the base rock, over time, your base rock will "turn to" LR, growing beneficial algae. You can help this process by adding "purple up" additive.
I would deffinitely have to agree that your tank was not cycled when you added your first fish, especially after only 3 days. The purpose of the cycle is to create beneficial bacteria in your tank that is necessary for fish and inverts to survive. This process can take any where from 1-8 weeks, on average you can say about 3-4 weeks for most tanks, and for a 60g, I would give it at least 3-4 weeks. The whole process starts with the introduction of ammonia to your system, over time this ammonia will turn to nitrItes, creating the beneficial bacteria, over more time, these nitrItes will turn to nitrAtes. So the cycle will start with a spike in ammonia (this is what the cocktail shrimp is for), your ammonia will start to go down and your trItes wil start to rise, then your trItes will start to lower and your trAtes will start to rise. Ammonia and trItes will eventually go all the way down to zero, this is what you are looking for. Once you get your ammonia and trItes at zero, give it another couple of weeks to make sure they stay at zero, this is when your cycle is complete.
By testing your water everyday during the cycle you can watch all these levels rise and fall, you can even make a simple graph to document. I would suggest starting a tank journal, keep records of all your readings on days that you test, document dates you add anything to tank, dates anything dies, anything you think is important. This will help in the future.
If I were you, to be on the safe side, and to prevent future deaths, I would take star fish back to the LFS, you can have them hold it for you if you really like it. I would add LR to tank and recycle. Test water and make sure tank is completely cycled before you add anything else.
Another word of advice...do not add damsels to your tank. You will regret it later. These are mean nasty little fish and I guarantee you will want them out of your tank when you begin to add other fish, and even in a 60g, with all the LR, it will be close to impossible to get them out. I would go with some clowns once your tank is fully cycled.

 

[j-bird]

Ohh yeah,..........FIND ANOTHER LFS!!

 

[milwaukeem]

J-Bird thanks a ton for the advice! The star that I have has been in there almost a week now and no signs of anything wrong, he moves & eats regulary... Do you still think I need to take him out? It is just going to be a problem because the store I bought him from is a pretty far distance away.... My tank will be have been up and running for three weeks this Saturday.... I did not test my water this past Saturday because it was tested fours days straight last week Wed-Friday, when all my complications started happening... I will test it again today to see where it is at and how it is doing... I wanted to know if you or anyone else knew any additonal info about star releasing a poison substance when stressed during acclimation as someone mention earlier in this thread??? Or bad enough to where I would need to do a water change? Because my water has been testing right for a while now.... In the past couple weeks the only issue I have had was that I needed to bring my salt levels up, which I did... I have also been running two additional filters since Saturday Purigen filter & a Matrix Carbon filter... I just dont want to have to worry about something in the tank that cant be tested or seen for you know what I mean?

 

[j-bird]

The only reason I suggested taking the starfish out was if you wanted to try to recycle your tank, becuase this would most likely cause the starfish to die. It is hard to say if your tank has cycled without testing the water while it was cycling and seeing the spike in ammonia and such.
Having your LFS test your water can be misleading..for example I mean this...You can take tap water (or RO whatever) and mix salt with it to the perfect SG, you can then bring this water in to the fish store and have them test it or do it yourself. The water will show a perfect reading, 0 am, 0 trIte, 0 trAte. But this water does not have the "beneficial" bacteria needed to sustain life in the aquarium, this is what the cycle is for, to introduce this beneficial bacteria, this bacteria will continue to grow over the life of your aquarium. Therefore, testing your water after 3 days, this is not enough time for ammonia to spike and go back down, but your water will still show a "perfect" reading.
I would deffinitely add some LR to your set-up, another reason to take out starfish. When ever you add LR to your aquarium, especially a lot of it, you have the chance of putting your aqaurium into another cycle, this is because the LR will have some die-off on it (from shipping or traveling). Die of=ammonia, any death=ammonia, this is why you are not supposed to leave dead fish in your tank. Anyways, this will cause your tank to start the cycle process again.

 

[j-bird]

To answer your question regarding the poison from the starfish. I have not heard of this in the sense that it is used here, not completely wrong, but I think a little misleading.
If a starfish is stressed or unhappy in its environment, it will start to kill itself, they do this by pretty much "decomposing" themselves, they will start to deteriorate (legs falling off). This is what will release the toxins into your tank, not necessarily the starfish just doing this by itself. If your starfish is alive and well, moving around and eating, it should not be releasing any toxins in your tank.
I also thought that I read something about you raising your SG. With a fish only tank it is better to keep your SG on the lower side, I would actually say around 1.019-1.021. Fish, unlike corals, do not need the higher SG in order to survive, they will do just fine with even 1.018. The reason to keep it low is because parasites on your fish survive and thrive with higher SG levels, this also what could have happened. Keep your SG lower if you only have fish in there.

 

[saltwater8]

Starfish, however, require a higher content of 1.023 - 1.025
:happyfish