Protein Skimmer Discussion

ret talbot

Member
This thread deserves a little background.
"mie" posted a question over on the "New Hobbyist" board in a thread called "Quick Skimmer Brand Question". The question had to do with whether or not Octopus was a good brand of a skimmer. By the time I joined the conversation, the used Octopus skimmer “mie” was looking at was no longer available, and so I suggested "mie" look into a AquaC skimmer. "Stanlalee" jumped in, and the two of us began discussing skimmers. Not wanting to hijack the thread, I decided to move the discussion over here where I hope many more people will join the conversation.
Basically (and please correct me if I have it wrong), Stanlalee wonders if AquaC is "just sitting back on old merits" when it comes to their skimmers, as the technology employed is, essentially, 10 years old. I actually agree with Stanlalee's assessment--that the AquaC skimmer technology is a decade old, but, in many ways, I actually see that as a plus not a minus. When I conducted a series of interviews with Jason Kim (the president of AquaC) last year, he made it abundantly clear to me that he is of the school where if something works, don't mess around with it. IMO, the AquaC protein skimmer (Stamlalee and I were discussing the EV line in particular) is a reliable, well-built piece of equipment with excellent customer support behind it. While there have been some tweaks to it over the years, the core design (and spray-injection mechanism) remains essentially unchanged.
So what of all the advances in protein skimmers over the past decade? To be honest, I'm a little distrustful of the skimmer companies that always seem to be coming out with the next best thing. I'm jaded enough (and poor enough...lol) to not feel as if I need the newest skimming technology as soon as it hits the market. I know AquaC watches the competition very closely, and it is (I believe) a conscious choice to not constantly be tinkering with the core technology. As an AquaC customer, I do like the fact that the company has invested its money in quality products made in the United States and great customer support rather than chasing the newest fad. In short, I switched all my systems over to AquaC skimmers because I found the skimmers to be well-built, quiet, reliable, and great in terms of their size AND I find the company to be consistent over time, even though the core technology is a decade old. I fully admit that my New England, Yankee roots are probably at work here, as I tend to gravitate to tried and true across the board in all my purchases.
Now, I should reiterate what I said in the other thread--to wit: I am not claiming AquaC skimmers are the best skimmers on the market (whatever that means…lol). Every system is different, and everyone has their personal preferences. I am simply sharing publicly that I like AquaC skimmers for the reasons outlined above. In the previous thread, I also alluded to the EV outperforming other skimmers in its class. Jason would not have liked to have heard me say that because he doesn't like the "in their class" distinction given the profound lack of solid data. When I made that statement, I made it based on tests that I performed last spring in preparation for choosing which protein skimmer to use as an illustration in my new book. I hope to publish the full results of that study soon (but I need to get the book out first, as my primary obligation is to that publisher).
Without getting into too much detail, the study involved firing up five skimmers that all can go head-to-head with one another based on 1) performance and reliability, 2) price point, 3) ease of use, 4) size and noise, and 5) customer support. In those tests (which again served my needs of choosing which skimmer to illustrate in my book), the EV performed best (especially in terms of quality and quantity of skimmate). Again, it is essential to state that I am not claiming that the AquaC skimmers are the best skimmers on the market; I am simply sharing that I like them for the reasons stated, and if that helps someone in making their choice, then that's great. I should state, I suppose, that I don’t work for AquaC. In fact, I’d never run an AquaC skimmer on any system I owned prior to last spring.
Sooooo I hope this thread can become a place where, over the next few weeks and months (and years?!), we can continue the discussion regarding protein skimmers. The more information we can get out there, the better, right? So what are your experiences? What companies do you like best? Which technology has impressed you the most? I look forward to chatting.
 
When I posted my questions regarding protein skimmers Stanlalee and a few others were VERY helpful in explaining everything to me. I don't think there is anything wrong with older technology that is proven to work, however I paid very close attention to those individuals advice because they also had years of experience in the hobby and had tried pretty much every skimmer out there and knew 1st hand results. They also knew how to mod skimmers to make them more effective which tells me they understand how the skimmer actually works, which gives me even more confidence in their advice.
I for one am much more apt to take advice from a private person that has no affiliation to any company than someone who has direct ties to a company such as an owner.
 

scsinet

Active Member
To address some of the things you said directly... here are what may be some different perspectives on your points.
First and foremost, AquaC makes a fine skimmer. I routinely recommend them, overpricing aside.
The technology is 10 years old, but part of the reason behind that is that AquaC patented the spray induction "technology" used in their skimmers, preventing other companies from building competing products. They don't HAVE to change their designs or innovate because there are essentially no competitors.
At the same time, look at the amazing advancements in the hobby that have taken place in the last 10 years. 10 years ago, reefkeeping was much less accessible to hobbyists than it is now, and it's the amazing advancements in filtration technology that have helped facilitate that accessibility. I do not consider the developments in the last 10 years to be anything other than a good thing for the hobby.
Skimmer technology has advanced amazingly in the last 10 years. I tend to feel like AquaC used patents to shirk the responsibility of innovating and improving their products and continuously reinvest in R&D, while other skimmer vendors have been learning by competing with each other, using "open" designs and continuously refining their products.
AquaC skimmers work very well, and most everyone who uses them are happy with them. However, the fact that they are 10 year old technology shouldn't be cited as cause to hold them on a pedestal above all others. Depending on how you look at it, it can be a bad thing.
 

ret talbot

Member
Originally Posted by LKGRenegade22
http:///forum/post/2879993
When I posted my questions regarding protein skimmers Stanlalee and a few others were VERY helpful in explaining everything to me. I don't think there is anything wrong with older technology that is proven to work, however I paid very close attention to those individuals advice because they also had years of experience in the hobby and had tried pretty much every skimmer out there and knew 1st hand results. They also knew how to mod skimmers to make them more effective which tells me they understand how the skimmer actually works, which gives me even more confidence in their advice.
I for one am much more apt to take advice from a private person that has no affiliation to any company than someone who has direct ties to a company such as an owner.
Thanks so much for your comment. Please keep a few things in mind:
I respect Stanalee's thoughts on the subject very much--that is why I wanted to give this topic its own thread.
I am not in any way affiliated with AquaC, and I have no direct ties to the company except as a journalist who conducted an independent interview.
I am not defending AquaC skimmers here, and I have no stake in whether or not every marine aquarist goes out and buys an AquaC skimmer. I'd simply love to see a thread dedicated to discussing skimmer technology and really looking at the pros and cons of what's out there. This is a wide open forum, and I hope all people with expertise in this area (like Stanalee) will contribute their knowledge and opinions.
I'm looking forward to learning and sharing.
 

ret talbot

Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/2880087
To address some of the things you said directly... here are what may be some different perspectives on your points.
First and foremost, AquaC makes a fine skimmer. I routinely recommend them, overpricing aside.
The technology is 10 years old, but part of the reason behind that is that AquaC patented the spray induction "technology" used in their skimmers, preventing other companies from building competing products. They don't HAVE to change their designs or innovate because there are essentially no competitors.
At the same time, look at the amazing advancements in the hobby that have taken place in the last 10 years. 10 years ago, reefkeeping was much less accessible to hobbyists than it is now, and it's the amazing advancements in filtration technology that have helped facilitate that accessibility. I do not consider the developments in the last 10 years to be anything other than a good thing for the hobby.
Skimmer technology has advanced amazingly in the last 10 years. I tend to feel like AquaC used patents to shirk the responsibility of innovating and improving their products and continuously reinvest in R&D, while other skimmer vendors have been learning by competing with each other, using "open" designs and continuously refining their products.
AquaC skimmers work very well, and most everyone who uses them are happy with them. However, the fact that they are 10 year old technology shouldn't be cited as cause to hold them on a pedestal above all others. Depending on how you look at it, it can be a bad thing.
Agreed! Agreed! I am thrilled with the technology in the hobby over the past decade. In fact, the technical editor on my book (someone we all know :)) was a little concerned that I was too enthusiastic about technological advances...lol.
One point I will make is that I like the fact that AquaC has kept the product stateside instead of outsourcing overseas. Anyone who has played with an AquaC skimmer knows that the thing is bombproof. I also really like that the company did not cash in its customer support in favor of R&D given that they have a product that works and they are willing to stand behind.
I do appreciate competition, and I do think that competition can bring excellence to the marketplace. What skimmer technology is impressing you most at present?
 

scsinet

Active Member
I'm personally a big fan of recirculators.
Rest assured I'm as American as they come, but one thing to keep in mind is that most of the advancements in the hobby have come from Europe. That said, it is good to see a manufacturer bringing some of the advancement "back home."
 

mr_x

Active Member
i haven't used the ev series, but i've used the remora. it was a major waste of money, and the customer service was terrible. they didn't stand behind anything.
when i complained about the massive microbubble issue, they stated they would send a piece of mesh for the exhaust port, and never did. it wasn't until i stated the facts of the issue publically, that i got a piece of nylon window screen in the mail, which ended up not working anyway.
"I like the fact that AquaC has kept the product stateside instead of outsourcing overseas"- how does this make the skimmer perform better?
 

ret talbot

Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/2880168
I'm personally a big fan of recirculators.
Rest assured I'm as American as they come, but one thing to keep in mind is that most of the advancements in the hobby have come from Europe. That said, it is good to see a manufacturer bringing some of the advancement "back home."
Let's talk recirc then...pros and cons?
I hear you on the advances coming from Europe. When I tried to name a chapter of my book "The European Method", however, my publisher expressed some concerns...lol. I am really excited that a bunch of my writing on marine aquaria has been ranslated into German in the past year, and I have gotten some good feedback. It seems they think we were out of sync.

Ret
 

ret talbot

Member
Originally Posted by Mr_X
http:///forum/post/2880215
i haven't used the ev series, but i've used the remora. it was a major waste of money, and the customer service was terrible. they didn't stand behind anything.
when i complained about the massive microbubble issue, they stated they would send a piece of mesh for the exhaust port, and never did. it wasn't until i stated the facts of the issue publically, that i got a piece of nylon window screen in the mail, which ended up not working anyway.
"I like the fact that AquaC has kept the product stateside instead of outsourcing overseas"- how does this make the skimmer perform better?
I'm curious to learn more about your issues with the Remora. I just fired two Remoras up on test systems, and I have yet to experience the microbubble issue. I'm also interested to hear from other people about your experience with customer service from companies that make skimmers. My personal experience with AquaC was great, but I am media. Have other people found AquaC unresponsive? Other companies?
Regarding the stateside comment I made, I have found that a lot of the outsourced products have suffered from less than stellar parts and less attention to detail (albeit a better price point). I'd be intersted to know what others have experienced though.
Ret
 

scsinet

Active Member
Originally Posted by Ret Talbot
http:///forum/post/2880265
When I tried to name a chapter of my book "The European Method", however, my publisher expressed some concerns...lol.
You may want to warn your publisher that if you neglect to mention the advances coming from Europe, many hobbyists will notice right away and it may affect the amount of cred it gives your book.
They call it the "Berlin Method" for a reason.
 

scsinet

Active Member
Originally Posted by Mr_X
http:///forum/post/2880215
"I like the fact that AquaC has kept the product stateside instead of outsourcing overseas"- how does this make the skimmer perform better?
Well stated. As I said earlier, I'm a fan of American industry, but both my wife's car and mine are Toyota - and we both started out buying only American.
While being American is a good thing, blindly overlooking superior foreign products or inferior American products does nothing to help the industry. It's funny how in America and with our capitalism, so many individuals embrace the concept of competition as a great thing - as long as it's AMERICAN competition.
The bottom line is that most American consumers may hold up such idealism, but when it comes down to their dollars being spent, they care more about how the product works, how long it lasts, etc than where it was made. Such choices to, are themselves very American.
It's one of the big reasons that the Big 3 are dying right now... the foreign companies do it better, cheaper.
I'm not saying that this is the case with AquaC or any other skimmers, but we should be careful not to hang our faith in a company on the sole fact that they an American company. American indeed... only in America can a company use patents to stifle their competition.
 

mr_x

Active Member
Originally Posted by Ret Talbot
http:///forum/post/2880272
I'm curious to learn more about your issues with the Remora. I just fired two Remoras up on test systems, and I have yet to experience the microbubble issue. I'm also interested to hear from other people about your experience with customer service from companies that make skimmers. My personal experience with AquaC was great, but I am media. Have other people found AquaC unresponsive? Other companies?
Regarding the stateside comment I made, I have found that a lot of the outsourced products have suffered from less than stellar parts and less attention to detail (albeit a better price point). I'd be intersted to know what others have experienced though.
Ret

mine made the water look cloudy from day one until 7 months later, when i sold it. i bought the prefilter/skimmer box that aqua-c recommended when i told them of my problem. it was a massive thing, that took up alot of space in my 30 cube. it did absolutely nothing for the microbubble issue.
secondly, the sound. the tank was in the bedrooom and it made the bedroom sound like the dentists' office. it never got any quieter. it was so bad that we had to put it on a timer to go off in the evenings, so we could sleep.
and lastly, adjusted all the way down, i would get about 1/8" of skimmate a week. it wasn't for lack of crap in the water either. the water coming out of the tank during waterchanges was yellow.
i borred a coralife ss 65 from a friend for a rock curing bin and it way out performed the remora. i'm in no way an advocate for coralife skimmers either.
i've not had to call customer service for any other skimmer except the one i have now-the MSX 300. it was about some pump noise and starting up issues. he immediately wanted to walk me through troubleshooting, and also offered to send me new pumps. i don't have any new information about that company, nor any other companies.
 

ret talbot

Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/2880462
You may want to warn your publisher that if you neglect to mention the advances coming from Europe, many hobbyists will notice right away and it may affect the amount of cred it gives your book.
They call it the "Berlin Method" for a reason.

lol...yea. It was just a discussion early on with one of the editors. We go beyond it pretty quick. I'm actually very pleased with he book, and I think it will prove a good resource for people just starting out in the hobby.
Regarding recirc skimmers, I ran one of the Current paddle-mixing injection skimmers over the summer. Have you gven that a whirl? What are your thoughts?
Ret
 

ret talbot

Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/2880467
Well stated. As I said earlier, I'm a fan of American industry, but both my wife's car and mine are Toyota - and we both started out buying only American.
While being American is a good thing, blindly overlooking superior foreign products or inferior American products does nothing to help the industry. It's funny how in America and with our capitalism, so many individuals embrace the concept of competition as a great thing - as long as it's AMERICAN competition.
The bottom line is that most American consumers may hold up such idealism, but when it comes down to their dollars being spent, they care more about how the product works, how long it lasts, etc than where it was made. Such choices to, are themselves very American.
It's one of the big reasons that the Big 3 are dying right now... the foreign companies do it better, cheaper.
I'm not saying that this is the case with AquaC or any other skimmers, but we should be careful not to hang our faith in a company on the sole fact that they an American company. American indeed... only in America can a company use patents to stifle their competition.
I agree with this entirely, and do I use a lot of non-American equipment on my systems simply because it's better than any American product IME. I'm not suggesting an AquaC skimmer is better simply because it's American, I'm suggesting that, in my experience, some of the American skimmer companies that used to be very reliable started sending aspects of their manufacturing overseas, and the quailty of the final product suffered because of it (obviously this isn't only the case with skimmers). Does that mean a company can't outsource overseas to save cost and still maintain a high level of quality? Of course not. I just have not seen that happen with American skimmer companies. In our test last spring, we did not limit the skimmers tested by country of origin...:)
I don't want to limit the discussion to only nationality--let's talk mechanics.
Ret
 

ret talbot

Member
Originally Posted by Mr_X
http:///forum/post/2880494
mine made the water look cloudy from day one until 7 months later, when i sold it. i bought the prefilter/skimmer box that aqua-c recommended when i told them of my problem. it was a massive thing, that took up alot of space in my 30 cube. it did absolutely nothing for the microbubble issue.
secondly, the sound. the tank was in the bedrooom and it made the bedroom sound like the dentists' office. it never got any quieter. it was so bad that we had to put it on a timer to go off in the evenings, so we could sleep.
and lastly, adjusted all the way down, i would get about 1/8" of skimmate a week. it wasn't for lack of crap in the water either. the water coming out of the tank during waterchanges was yellow.
i borred a coralife ss 65 from a friend for a rock curing bin and it way out performed the remora. i'm in no way an advocate for coralife skimmers either.
i've not had to call customer service for any other skimmer except the one i have now-the MSX 300. it was about some pump noise and starting up issues. he immediately wanted to walk me through troubleshooting, and also offered to send me new pumps. i don't have any new information about that company, nor any other companies.
How long ago was this. I am not running the prefilter box on either of the two systems on which I am running the Remora, and I am getting no microbubbles at present. After tuning the skimmers, I'm getting great skimmate. Did you notice a specific design flaw? Are you pleased with the MSX 300? I'm a little confused--if that's the same skimmer I'm thinking of, it's hugenot at all comparable to the Remora. Am I missing something? For the price point the MSX 300 (if you have the room) is a workhorse (especially once you do a few mods to it).
 

stanlalee

Active Member
I wasn't really talking about changing the technology. a needlewheel/pinwheel are basically the same things they've always been too just like a gas engine still combust gas and push a piston to make power. I was talking about improving the product overall using the same technology or even improving the technology if its feasable. I dont expect AquaC to stop using their spray injection but I would expect them to have an improved EV or remora that works better than the one they've been selling for 6+ years. thats what almost every other company thats still around has done. from the lowly redsea berlin to euroreef, aqua medic, ETSS right up to the deltecs, ATI and bubble kings have all found it neccessary to improve their products. but not AquaC

For example with the EV180 (since we were on that) they boast about efficiency and not needing to use a large pump(mag 7 or mag 9 for best performance). well when they were introduced and big 1200gph pumps to drive downdrafts and venturi skimmers were the norm for that type of performance that was all well and good but this aint then. several companies are getting like or better performance from less than 35 watts (as opposed to the 70 and 90 watts Mag 7/9 use). Thats why I asked you to define "class" of skimmer. you cant compare a skimmer where the pump aspirates air with one that doesn't. even if you use the same pump the fact it draws air is going to greatly lower power consumption as opposed to pushing water like an injector skimmer. also why the claim of most bubbles per GPH pump used is meaningless to me without clarification. needlewheel pumps dont have good gph BY DESIGN. the more air their pulling the less gph will be. good gph is not a design criteria for wheel skimmers pump, air aspiration is. anyway the bottom line is the EV180 claim of efficiency may have been a good one when it came out but NOW its certaintly not efficient when you can get the same performance from a skimmer that uses 30 watts. Shouldn't they be testing/doing something to make theirs more efficient or perform better. you mean to tell me in all this time they cant find a tweak here or there or anything to improve it (other than suggesting using the injector from a large EV skimmer and larger pumps).
 

ret talbot

Member
Originally Posted by Stanlalee
http:///forum/post/2880761
I wasn't really talking about changing the technology. a needlewheel/pinwheel are basically the same things they've always been too just like a gas engine still combust gas and push a piston to make power. I was talking about improving the product overall using the same technology or even improving the technology if its feasable. I dont expect AquaC to stop using their spray injection but I would expect them to have an improved EV or remora that works better than the one they've been selling for 6+ years. thats what almost every other company thats still around has done. from the lowly redsea berlin to euroreef, aqua medic, ETSS right up to the deltecs, ATI and bubble kings have all found it neccessary to improve their products. but not AquaC

For example with the EV180 (since we were on that) they boast about efficiency and not needing to use a large pump(mag 7 or mag 9 for best performance). well when they were introduced and big 1200gph pumps to drive downdrafts and venturi skimmers were the norm for that type of performance that was all well and good but this aint then. several companies are getting like or better performance from less than 35 watts (as opposed to the 70 and 90 watts Mag 7/9 use). Thats why I asked you to define "class" of skimmer. you cant compare a skimmer where the pump aspirates air with one that doesn't. even if you use the same pump the fact it draws air is going to greatly lower power consumption as opposed to pushing water like an injector skimmer. also why the claim of most bubbles per GPH pump used is meaningless to me without clarification. needlewheel pumps dont have good gph BY DESIGN. the more air their pulling the less gph will be. good gph is not a design criteria for wheel skimmers pump, air aspiration is. anyway the bottom line is the EV180 claim of efficiency may have been a good one when it came out but NOW its certaintly not efficient when you can get the same performance from a skimmer that uses 30 watts. Shouldn't they be testing/doing something to make theirs more efficient or perform better. you mean to tell me in all this time they cant find a tweak here or there or anything to improve it (other than suggesting using the injector from a large EV skimmer and larger pumps).
Some good points indeed :). As I've said before, I'm not here to defend AquaC--sure, I feel confident recomending the AquaC skimmers based on my own personal experience and the test we performed last spring, but I'd like to discuss here what it is that makes a skimmer great. You are right, there have been many important innovations in the past 6-10 years in terms of skimmer design. What are the most important advances in your opinion? What's the next best thing?
Ret
 

stanlalee

Active Member
Originally Posted by Ret Talbot
http:///forum/post/2880921
What's the next best thing?
Ret

I dont think anything revolutionary anytime soon. tapered cone shaped skimmers and pump improvements seem to getting alot of attention now. if I had a wish list wide spread affordable self cleaning collection cups would be nice (like the redsea C skim for example)
 

mr_x

Active Member
Originally Posted by Ret Talbot
http:///forum/post/2880586
How long ago was this. I am not running the prefilter box on either of the two systems on which I am running the Remora, and I am getting no microbubbles at present. After tuning the skimmers, I'm getting great skimmate. Did you notice a specific design flaw? Are you pleased with the MSX 300? I'm a little confused--if that's the same skimmer I'm thinking of, it's hugenot at all comparable to the Remora. Am I missing something? For the price point the MSX 300 (if you have the room) is a workhorse (especially once you do a few mods to it).
the remora was used for 7 months, and then sold about a year ago now.
the msx is obviously on a completely different system and was just used as an example.
well, nothing worked the way it should have on the remora in my opinion. the only thing i did like about the design was it's looks.
maybe i just got a bad one, but i wasn't about to try another to see.
as for the msx, it's been working pretty well lately.
 

ret talbot

Member
Originally Posted by Stanlalee
http:///forum/post/2881002
I dont think anything revolutionary anytime soon. tapered cone shaped skimmers and pump improvements seem to getting alot of attention now. if I had a wish list wide spread affordable self cleaning collection cups would be nice (like the redsea C skim for example)
Agreed. I also think that smaller footprints would be great for most hobbyists. And I'd love to see neck cleaners be standard with the self-cleaning collection cups.
 
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