darthtang aw
Active Member
Going back to the militarization of the police discussion. What exactly is making them militarized? Basically i disagree with this assessment.
Surplus military vehicles and the police...
- Thread starter theclemsonkid
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darthtang aw
Active Member
Which departments have received Abrams tanks and apache helicopters?
darthtang aw
Active Member
What do you consider overgeared? Not being an ass just trying to understand what limitations people expect the police to be held to.
2quills
Well-Known Member
A good read ---> Rise Of The Warrior Cop.Darth, I think the point is that police departments are receiving surplus military gear. Some are perceiving this as Abrams tanks and Apache helicopters, But in some cases it does appear that a few police departments are a bit over geared, I can agree with that.
We've gone from a being a nation that conducted a couple of thousand of tactical raids on U.S. civilians a year to a nation that now conducts upwards of 70,000 police raids a year.
The vast majority are non violent drug offenders.
Law enforcement positions (especially in urban areas) are increasingly being filled with ex military war vets who tend to be over aggressive and have hair triggers.
There is no shortage of reports highlighting abuse and miss use of force in these instances.
My guess is that this contributes to the hysteria.
darthtang aw
Active Member
How so? Does your Police force have an Mrap?
darthtang aw
Active Member
Define police raids.....also, does this not say something about the society of Today rather than the over arming of Officers?
2quills
Well-Known Member
It speaks volumes about society and the mindset of the people in it, yes.
Raids. Heavily armed teams of law enforcement now being used to serve warrants for all sorts of infractions. The least of which are actually going after violent offenders.
Some simple Google searches will yield many instances of police breaking into the wrong homes all together. Dragging innocent people out of their homes half naked into the street. Tactical weapons trained at their heads. Family dog needlessly shot. And even innocent home owners being killed trying to protect themselves.
How about that story Lisa Ling did on the college kid who got raided for selling pot to his friends. And when he couldn't turn over any major dealers because he didn't know any was blackmailed by law enforcement to find some by turning him into an informant and go out of his way to find a major dealer?
Yes, people are angry about the use and abuse. It isn't just senseless paranoia. In which case I'd have to ask who's more fearful, law enforcement who is continually ramping up their arsenals or the citizens seeing their 4th amendment rights being raped?
bang guy
Moderator
No. They're smart enough to know it's not needed. What would it do for the Village of Warsaw other than consume taxpayer money?
darthtang aw
Active Member
One paragraph out of all of that addresses the "militarization" of police forces. And only to a small degree. You have yet to show specifics of militarized police and what equipment is exactly fitting your perception of militarization.
yearofthenick
Active Member
As much as I wish I could say I should rely upon the police protecting me, I can't. I have resigned myself to protect my family. If anything bad were ever to happen, it's my responsibility to care for myself and those around me. It doesn't matter if the police have tasers or tanks, so long as I'm far away from them.
yearofthenick
Active Member
Sheesh, just because I've been gone for 4 years.... now I'm a "New Member" with a generic avatar pic and no threads?!?!
2quills
Well-Known Member
Aside from the flash grenades, m16' s and armored carriers there's more to "militarization" than just the equipment that is being employed on our streets.
This has more to do with the SWAT and Narcotics enforcement teams than it does your average LEO out there writing tickets all day.
These guys are all trained by the military at military installations.
Couple that with policy behind our war on drugs, war on crime etc and you can begin to see the mentality that these guys operate with when they have a pre disposition to view citizens (potential wrong doers) as the enemy. And less as citizens who are innocent until proven guilty by our justice system.
The collateral damage that been caused from our increasingly relentless pursuit against non violent offenders IMO doesn't justify the results of the policies we've implemented.
In essence the more you try to force and control somethings the worse they get.
darthtang aw
Active Member
The equipment you list, Legal law abiding citizens are able to own. Yet the police acquire them and suddenly they are "militarized". You have sat on this site defending the second amendment, stating law abiding citizens should maintain the right to own such things...then begrudge the very institution set up to protect the local populace for owning the same thing. And yes, I know a person with not one but two decommissioned armored personnel carriers..
This is nothing new for the police. People find things when they want to see things. During the 1950's the police force had fully automatic tommy guns as well as the precursor to the M-60, the m1941. The machine gun fired 600 rounds a minute....
Blaming Police forces for the laws created by higher authority is asinine. I know many officers personally, and they will be the first to tell you, they are a tad jaded...but when you see what they see on a regular basis, it would be hard not to be. Especially when you have communities that turn on them. Blame them. The law is the law, if you don't like the law, blaming the police for carrying out the law in a manner to ensure their own safety seems odd to me. Thats like telling our military boys not to fire until fired upon in a war zone....oh wait...we do that as well.
I am tired of this militerization crap...it isnt much different than 70 years ago. The only difference is the level of law to be enforced now days. You want to minimize, then minimize the laws. That however is not to be placed at the feet of the police. Which is what you are doing in a sense.
To show you how ridiculous this discussion has become nationally, I was watching a news discussion show. I will refrain from naming the network for now. But the consesus was, since the police were in riot gear and wearing shields they were inviting the protestors to throw things like rocks, bricks and molotov cocktails at them. Thats like saying by driving a yellow car you are inviting random people to hop in your backseat for a ride a home.
Darth (Taxi Driver) Tang
P.s>, Just because a crime is non violent does not mean it ioesnt have a detrimental affect on the greater society.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Goodness lol.
You are so far off base with the points I've been trying to make I really wouldn't know where to begin.
The question here isn't about the equipment. It's always been about the way it's being used.
I'm sorry that I don't agree with the tens of thousands of No Knock raids that are performed in this country every year resulting in many mistakes being made on the part of the police are not a cause for concern.
Perhaps if it was your child being horrifically burned by a flash grenade being tossed through his bedroom window in the middle of the night you'd take a different stance. Especially if no convictions result from the action because of bad information and botched investigation.
You're friends with cops who you claim are jaided? How about we throw more of them on the streets and let them operate with impunity in your community then?
You know what makes me sick? Hypocrites who break those drug laws and get away with it. Meanwhile they preach from their high chair while still walking around town carrying concealed weapons and business license still intact.
Now that's justice. Pffft
You are so far off base with the points I've been trying to make I really wouldn't know where to begin.
The question here isn't about the equipment. It's always been about the way it's being used.
I'm sorry that I don't agree with the tens of thousands of No Knock raids that are performed in this country every year resulting in many mistakes being made on the part of the police are not a cause for concern.
Perhaps if it was your child being horrifically burned by a flash grenade being tossed through his bedroom window in the middle of the night you'd take a different stance. Especially if no convictions result from the action because of bad information and botched investigation.
You're friends with cops who you claim are jaided? How about we throw more of them on the streets and let them operate with impunity in your community then?
You know what makes me sick? Hypocrites who break those drug laws and get away with it. Meanwhile they preach from their high chair while still walking around town carrying concealed weapons and business license still intact.
Now that's justice. Pffft
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darthtang aw
Active Member
Examples of no knock raids ease. Examples of a child being burned by a flash grenade please. You make this sound like common place occurances. So no less than three exames of each occurring should t be to hard to find.
Once again you are complaining about operations allowed within the eyes of the current law. These are raids conducted under warrant. Warrants signed by judges voted in by the mob or those appointed by those elected by the mob. Once again, just following orders.
Thats like blaming the military for the innocent people killed from one of our air strikes. Is it the fault of the pilot or the fault of those that gave the order. You would blame the pilot.
The police officer doesnt make the law or the procedure. They just carry it out.
Darth ( dont look behind the curtain) tang.
Once again you are complaining about operations allowed within the eyes of the current law. These are raids conducted under warrant. Warrants signed by judges voted in by the mob or those appointed by those elected by the mob. Once again, just following orders.
Thats like blaming the military for the innocent people killed from one of our air strikes. Is it the fault of the pilot or the fault of those that gave the order. You would blame the pilot.
The police officer doesnt make the law or the procedure. They just carry it out.
Darth ( dont look behind the curtain) tang.
2quills
Well-Known Member
You keep reverting back to this idea that I've somewhere claimed its all the fault of the police themselves. Can you show me where I said that?
Remember you were the one who started off in this threat claiming the cop was guilty after your full weeks worth of investigation into the facts (oops, I mean reports). Perhaps you have a pre disposition of feelings of guilt towards officers since you know a few "jaded" ones. Just a guess.
Warrants are quite often a joke. And there is no shortage of instances of officers providing false info to obtain them. Law officers have a duty to uphold the laws. They shouldn't be above them.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/19/ga-county-refuses-pay-medical-bills-after-toddler-/
http://www.cato.org/raidmap
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/police-killings-data/14060357/
You're right. This stuff isn't hard to find. You should try it sometime. I could do this all day but you aren't paying me for it.
Remember you were the one who started off in this threat claiming the cop was guilty after your full weeks worth of investigation into the facts (oops, I mean reports). Perhaps you have a pre disposition of feelings of guilt towards officers since you know a few "jaded" ones. Just a guess.
Warrants are quite often a joke. And there is no shortage of instances of officers providing false info to obtain them. Law officers have a duty to uphold the laws. They shouldn't be above them.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/19/ga-county-refuses-pay-medical-bills-after-toddler-/
http://www.cato.org/raidmap
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/14/police-killings-data/14060357/
You're right. This stuff isn't hard to find. You should try it sometime. I could do this all day but you aren't paying me for it.
darthtang aw
Active Member
You deserve a more i depth response than i am able to adequately give from my phone so we will have to pause the discussion. I can say i do believe the investigation is still ongoing for ferguson. So i am not wrong yet.