Just heard.

[darthtang aw]

Saudis Arabia has co e a long way in the last few decades. We have to remember the concepts we Americans hold dear are very new to them. you could own slaves in saudi arabi up until it was abolished in the sixties. Saudi arabi has made it a crime to join "overseas" conflicts such as helping isis fight.

 

[beth]

The way I see it, yes, there are benefits to the West in being aggressively involved in the Middle East and exercising control in the region. But at what cost!?? Sure 200 yrs from now, we may see a whole different picture, but that is a big maybe. The cost to US citizens and our founding principals has been staggering. I see our own need to take a cold hard look at what we have become.

 

[2quills]

Saudis Arabia has co e a long way in the last few decades. We have to remember the concepts we Americans hold dear are very new to them. you could own slaves in saudi arabi up until it was abolished in the sixties. Saudi arabi has made it a crime to join "overseas" conflicts such as helping isis fight.

Because they were pressured into it. Lets face it. The monarchy there would rather hold on to their oil money more than they care to keep their woman covered up and uneducated or look like they support the idea of getting the U.S. out of the region and their pocket books. Otherwise, I'm sure they could care less. It's the equivalent of me trying to tell someone else how to raise their kids or dictate how they control their profits. You make it sound like they want to be like us. I just don't see it that way. Many Saudi's supported Al Qaeda ideals until we pressured them to banish Bin Laden. That's why they turned against them because the powers that be sided with us for the money and the power it brings them.

 

[darthtang aw]

The way I see it, yes, there are benefits to the West in being aggressively involved in the Middle East and exercising control in the region. But at what cost!?? Sure 200 yrs from now, we may see a whole different picture, but that is a big maybe. The cost to US citizens and our founding principals has been staggering. I see our own need to take a cold hard look at what we have become.

It won't take centuries if our elected leaders can see fit to stay our present course. Within the next 15 to 25 at current growth rat and production we stand to be energy sufficient. Meaning we won't need foreign oil. Even with out federal land leases for energy exploration/production.

 

[darthtang aw]

Because they were pressured into it. Lets face it. The monarchy there would rather hold on to their oil money more than they care to keep their woman covered up and uneducated or look like they support the idea of getting the U.S. out of the region and their pocket books. Otherwise, I'm sure they could care less. It's the equivalent of me trying to tell someone else how to raise their kids or dictate how they control their profits. You make it sound like they want to be like us. I just don't see it that way. Many Saudi's supported Al Qaeda ideals until we pressured them to banish Bin Laden. That's why they turned against them because the powers that be sided with us for the money and the power it brings them.

I am implying no such thing. What I am pointing out is the relative comparison between Saudi arabian ideals and other countries. When did our country abolish slavery? How many years after that did it take us to grant rights to minorities. How about women?

Saudi Arabia has only been without slavery for a little over fifty years. Do you really expect to change centuries of thinking and beliefs in one or two generations?

There was no pressure on the. To go after al Qaeda. Al qaeda attacked them with terrorist attacks on their own.

 

[bang guy]

It won't take centuries if our elected leaders can see fit to stay our present course. Within the next 15 to 25 at current growth rat and production we stand to be energy sufficient. Meaning we won't need foreign oil. Even with out federal land leases for energy exploration/production.

If we stay on our present course we'll be speaking Chinese in under 25 years.

If we wanted to be energy independent we would have thousands of small self sufficient nuke plants currently in operation or in construction as a stop gap until we invent the next generation of energy creation. Oil would be abandoned within 20 years.

 

[darthtang aw]

If we wanted to be energy independent we would have thousands of small self sufficient nuke plants currently in operation or in construction as a stop gap until we invent the next generation of energy creation. Oil would be abandoned within 20 years.

I wont disagree with that at all and agree completely.../but I fully expect someone here to ask "How that worked out for Japan?". pretty soon.

 

[bang guy]

The nuke part? Modern nuke plants are far cheaper to build and operate. In addition there's never enough fissionable material in one place to cause a meltdown.

I see I'm preaching to the choir but it had to be said. "The 2014 version of a nuclear power plant is not the same as the 1960 version". I'll say it louder for those that don't hear so well.

 

[beth]

Nope, I prefer no nuke plants. Doesn't matter how wonderful the construction currently is. The possibilities for disaster and error is there, and the consequences too great. We don't even have a viable way to get rid of nuclear waste.

 

[2quills]

I am implying no such thing. What I am pointing out is the relative comparison between Saudi arabian ideals and other countries. When did our country abolish slavery? How many years after that did it take us to grant rights to minorities. How about women?

Saudi Arabia has only been without slavery for a little over fifty years. Do you really expect to change centuries of thinking and beliefs in one or two generations?

There was no pressure on the. To go after al Qaeda. Al qaeda attacked them with terrorist attacks on their own.

I'm not expecting to change anyone. It's not really my job. But some people seem to think it is.

Iraq invades Kuwait, our government convinces the Saudis to let us protect them (the oil I mean) so we built military bases over there on their soil to do so. That's why they hate us and the Saudi rulers. Non Muslims in their holy land. That's what this whole stupid fighting is about. It all comes down to the oil (money).

Yes I'm on board with modern nuclear technology.

 

[bang guy]

More people have died of radioactivity from non-nuclear power plants than have died from nuclear disasters or thermonuclear bombs.

 

[darthtang aw]

Quills, You need to check your history. We had military bases in Saudi arabia loooooong before iraq invaded Kuwait.

As to the internal issues of Saudi Arabia it is not as simplistic as you place it. Many Saudis want us their. Not just the royal family. It comes down to Shia and Sunni clans always in opposition. The royal family is Shia therefore it is the Sunni faction against our involvement primarily.

Did you realize the u.s approves over 100000 visas a year of Saudi citizens. 26% of which are students. The rest are tourists and people desiring to live the American dream. For a country of people that hates us, that is a large amount that wNt to come here each year. Just because the hijackers were primarily Saudi does not implicate the population as whole. Remember, abortion clinic bombings are done by white Christians. Does this mean most white Christians hate abortion clinics to the point of promoting terrorism?

 

[2quills]

You need to check your history. We had military bases in Saudi arabia loooooong before iraq invaded Kuwait.

As to the internal issues of Saudi Arabia it is not as simplistic as you place it. Many Saudis want us their. Not just the royal family. It comes down to Shia and Sunni clans always in opposition. The royal family is Shia therefore it is the Sunni faction against our involvement primarily.

Did you realize the u.s approves over 100000 visas a year of Saudi citizens. 26% of which are students. The rest are tourists and people desiring to live the American dream. For a country of people that hates us, that is a large amount that wNt to come here each year. Just because the hijackers were primarily Saudi does not implicate the population as whole. Remember, abortion clinic bombings are done by white Christians. Does this mean most white Christians hate abortion clinics to the point of promoting terrorism?

I have checked the history. We were discussing al qaeda. Their main beef with us from the get go was a result of the Saudis choosing us to defend the oil. Not them. And who can blame them? Thus they used our occupation and the deaths of innocent people as a result of colateral damage as their propaganda. Ever since desert storm this has progressively gotten way worse. To the point of being out of control today.

Yes we do a lot for them so we can have cheaper gas at the pump. It isn't rocket science.

 

[beth]

If an oil plant blows up, yes, it will be horrible and many lives lost. However, it won't cause climatic changes, exclusion zones, horrible birth defects, massive natural resource contamination and losses with the potential for a regional and perhaps global catastrophe. Nuclear waste has to be babysat for, well---eternity.

We've only had two major catastrophes (that were still considered contained or controlled), yet one brought down the Soviet Union and the other disaster's total effects remains to be seen...as we type, contaminates pour into the ocean from Fukushima with no end in sight. The toll on regional wildlife and environment, way of life for locals, is staggering; there will global impacts to health because of this disaster.

 

[darthtang aw]

I have checked the history. We were discussing al qaeda. Their main beef with us from the get go was a result of the Saudis choosing us to defend the oil. Not them. And who can blame them? Thus they used our occupation and the deaths of innocent people as a result of colateral damage as their propaganda. Ever since desert storm this has progressively gotten way worse. To the point of being out of control today.

Yes we do a lot for them so we can have cheaper gas at the pump. It isn't rocket science.

We were discussing Al Qaeda? I thought we were discussing our involvement in the Middle East concerning energy needs and the countries we deal with for this.

 

[darthtang aw]

If an oil plant blows up, yes, it will be horrible and many lives lost. However, it won't cause climatic changes, exclusion zones, horrible birth defects, massive natural resource contamination and losses with the potential for a regional and perhaps global catastrophe. Nuclear waste has to be babysat for, well---eternity.

We've only had two major catastrophes (that were still considered contained or controlled), yet one brought down the Soviet Union and the other disaster's total effects remains to be seen...as we type, contaminates pour into the ocean from Fukushima with no end in sight. The toll on regional wildlife and environment, way of life for locals, is staggering; there will global impacts to health because of this disaster.

Werent these claims made concerning the bp oil exlain in the gulf? Didnt several here state as much in our last discussion concerning the gulf spill a couple months back?

 

[darthtang aw]

Beth let me propose a question to you. You are against nuclear. You are against our involvement in world affairs to secure energy needs. So how do you propose we sustain our current economic needs on our current stock of limited energy if we eliminate those previous two options?

 

[2quills]

We were discussing Al Qaeda? I thought we were discussing our involvement in the Middle East concerning energy needs and the countries we deal with for this.

Which led to Al Qaeda's beef with us. And in turn has led to the current problems with the rest of the islamic extremists.

That short term memory thing sucks don't it? If it wasn't for those needs than we wouldn't have had a need for the last two wars. People are tired of the oil conflicts. It's all relative.

Kill the sea life or kill or ouselves. One thing is for sure...what ever we do will ultimately lead to some sort of colateral damage somewhere.

If WE want energy then we should be willing to accept the risks here at home. Nuclear has made great strides. And the waste that old plants produced can be used as a fuel for some of the newer designs. It's smarter, better, safer IMO than it has ever been.

Unless you want to go all green and screw ourselves the Germany did.

 

[beth]

It doesn't matter what a lot of people said or thought about bp.....what matters is the reality. The bp incident was a regional disaster limited to the oceanic life in the Gulf of Mex. No one died nor did anyone ever say that masses of people would die and that birth defects were now inevitable. Their is not an exclusion zone in the Gulf resulting from bp spill. The planet was never going to get cooler because oil spilled in the Gulf.

I haven't heard anything about being able to re-purpose nuclear waste? Plants are all fine and dandy when they are brand new....but nothing stays new. They start to deteriorate, but the need to stay open and working continues. Can't just shut the plant down in a decade and start over with the latest technology. This results in what you saw in both Chernobyl and Fukushima. Old run down plants continued to operate.

Never ever said I was against being involved in world affairs. I said that we don't need to be world police and we don't need to be manipulating world affairs where it is obvious the results could be things like, oh 911, war after war after war. Somehow I think we can do commerce the old fashion way without attempting to manipulate societies who are too receptive.

 

[santamonicahelp]

We certainly don't need to be world police to stay good in the "global economy". We don't need nuclear weapons, or to take over other countries. Nonsense.

What we really need is education here in our own country instead of worrying about the issues of other countries. We got plenty of issues here and we are certainly no moral example. Just my opinion.