High Ammonia

[New2thereef]

We currently purchased a 150 gallon Red Sea tropical saltwater tank. It has been running for 2 years it has 50lb of live rock and many fish, shrimp, crabs,star fish,sea cucumber,and several snails. We kept the water warm buring transport and traded out 50% of the sand and have changed over 50% of the water but can't seem to get the ammonia down. We have lost all of our live corals and may have 2 fire fish unaccounted for. Help it's been 8 days and ammonia is at at dangerous r level! Fish store says to just ride it out but there must be something driving up the ammonia. The live rock wasn't kept heated during transport it dropped to about 50 degrees is this what is omitting the ammonia?

 

[snakeblitz33]

Probably.

Take out anything that is dead and decaying. That is a source of ammonia.

Water changes and time will fix the problem. You don't want to start dosing chemicals in a reef tank.

Just be patient and it will only get better. If you start dosing chemicals it won't properly re-cycle.

Sorry for your losses.

 

[New2thereef]

Thank you, it's been so hard watching the beautiful tank die! we were given a bottle of microbe-lift special blend. It is chemical free degrades organic waste. Should we be using this in the reef tank?

 

[snakeblitz33]

It wouldn't hurt. It's a bacteria supplement that may help reduce ammonia. Adding it regularly could help alleviate some stress.

Leave your live rocks alone and in the tank. Try to find your missing fish- live or dead.

 

[New2thereef]

We are also using a product called Prime in hopes to keep the ammonia level safe for the fish. We have used 2 emergency doses and changed water and then a low dose.

 

[silverado61]

How did you go about changing over 50% of the sand? If you disturbed the sand too much your releasing a lot of toxins in the sand which could be causing an ammonia spike along with moving the rock.

Correct me if I'm wrong Snakeblitz.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Moving a tank either way will cause a mini-cycle. Removing part of the sandbed was probably a smart thing to do. Most sandbeds are about 2" deep and for the most part don't build up hydrogen sulfide since it is stirred enough by critters and the meiofauna present. Removing part of the sandbed and replacing it with new probably released some detritus which is now rapidly breaking down into ammonia. Since the bacteria populations have died back on the rocks (and I doubt the old filters were saved) the ammonia levels have risen. Nothing really to do but wait it out and let the bacteria repopulate naturally or add bottled bacteria and don't replace the filters for a couple weeks.

Just my thoughts. I've moved tanks before but I've always had an intermediary- I rent a tank at the LFS or let hobby friends keep my corals till the new tank is set up. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[New2thereef]

so the idea was at two year on old sand now was the time to change it.plus new sand came with the tank. i am sure my lack of thought to keep all the rock and coral at temp was my fail.Of course February in Pennsylvania not sure i could have done more!!lol either way the situation at hand is to protect the fish. to elaborate further we have a red sea max tank. uv filter that runs at high bulb times only. there are two add on reactors. one is phoslock and the other is a cream colored pellet(any idea what it is?) we also have removed anything we have confirmed has died, Any way to save the rock? Cleaning/ sterilize? Other than the ammonia the rest of the tank is stable. (salinty=1.025/alk=9.7/cal=445/mag=1500/nitrites=0/nitrates=.1/ and ph=8) Tank has been producing algae pretty heavy from filter to overflow. fish seem fine but it was quite an investment to not be sure. aso to note the filter bag from the tank we have had to change 3 times in 8 days. it becomes so built up it overflows. Any big signs we should be looking for?

 

[dimaz09]

I know less about ammonia

 

[jay0705]

While the die off on the rock was part of the problem. Now the rock is your friend. The bacteria will start to rebuild on it eating the ammonia thus knocking it down. Macro alage will also feed on the nasties in your tank , but if the fish are doing ok then its a get better w time thing.

 

[pegasus]

Since the sand bed was disturbed, the nasty stuff trapped in the sand was released and a lot of the bacteria that breaks down organics has probably died off, along with a lot of the critters that live in the sand. The first stage of decay creates Ammonia. This spike will continue until there's enough bacteria populated to consume the Ammonia, and it's waste will be Nitrite. Once Nitrite is present, bacteria that consumes Nitrite will begin to populate, and it's waste will be in the form of Nitrate. This is called the Nitrogen cycle, commonly referred to as "cycle". Ammonia will spike, then fall. As Ammonia falls, Nitrite will spike, then fall. As Nitrite falls, Nitrate will spike. When Ammonia and Nitrite levels have fallen to zero, and only Nitrate remains, the tank has completed it's cycle. At that point, do a 50% water change, and the tank will be ready to s-l-o-w-l-y begin stocking. In other words, you add livestock in small increments. Each new addition adds ammonia, and by slowly adding fish, you give the system time to adjust (grow more bacteria) to the added load. Too many fish at one time will overload the system, and will result in a system crash. I don't know how many times I've written this, but always remember: NOTHING good ever happens in a hurry with saltwater... but bad things can... and do. Patience is your best friend when it comes to the saltwater hobby, so don't rush anything... unless it's an emergency situation and you don't have a choice.

If you have a spare tank to hold the fish in... use it. If you don't have a spare tank... get one. If you can't get one... let someone else hold your fish. If you can't do any one of these... prepare to start from scratch. Just thought you should know.

PS: The idea that two year old sand needs to be changed is false. A proper sand bed will last the life of the tank. If you plan on having a reef tank, I suggest you add another 100 lbs of rock to your system. Normal recommendations are 1-2lbs or rock per gallon of water. Same thing applies to sand. These two areas (substrates) are where you nitrifying bacteria live. Without the proper amount of area for this beneficial bacteria to grow in, it's hard to keep the system balanced.

 

[jay0705]

I agree w sand not needing to be changed. The amout is debatable bc some folks go bare bottom. Myself I like sand.

 

[silverado61]

I prefer a 4in sand bed myself.

 

[New2thereef]

Thank you everyone for the helpful information. We have finally finished the cycle and all the fish and coral are doing great!

 

[pegasus]

Thank you everyone for the helpful information. We have finally finished the cycle and all the fish and coral are doing great!

Good to hear! Looks like it was a mini cycle from transporting since it only lasted a couple of weeks. Glad you got past the danger zone and the fish and coral are doing great!

 

[flower]

so the idea was at two year on old sand now was the time to change it.plus new sand came with the tank. i am sure my lack of thought to keep all the rock and coral at temp was my fail.Of course February in Pennsylvania not sure i could have done more!!lol either way the situation at hand is to protect the fish. to elaborate further we have a red sea max tank. uv filter that runs at high bulb times only. there are two add on reactors. one is phoslock and the other is a cream colored pellet(any idea what it is?) we also have removed anything we have confirmed has died, Any way to save the rock? Cleaning/ sterilize? Other than the ammonia the rest of the tank is stable. (salinty=1.025/alk=9.7/cal=445/mag=1500/nitrites=0/nitrates=.1/ and ph=8) Tank has been producing algae pretty heavy from filter to overflow. fish seem fine but it was quite an investment to not be sure. aso to note the filter bag from the tank we have had to change 3 times in 8 days. it becomes so built up it overflows. Any big signs we should be looking for?

Hi,

If I understand what you wrote...you moved an established tank...but changed the sand... Temps didn't cause your ammonia spike, nor hurt your rocks. The corals may not be happy but should be able to bounce back. I don't think moving in cold weather caused your problems at all.

This is what I believed happened:
Good bacteria colonies are mostly on your rock and sand, it only balances what is in the tank, when you replaced the sand, you lost a great deal of valuable good bacteria, so now that it's no longer balanced, the critters put out more ammonia then the tank could handle. The cure however was the same, wait for everything to rebalance.

For anyone reading this thread:
When you move a tank is not the time to change anything, don't wash the power heads, don't change the sand, don't even replace your filter media. It's very tempting to clean and replace stuff because it's all broke down, but because of the reasons I mentioned above, you must not do so.

 

[mandy111]

Hi,
@pegasus
If I understand what you wrote...you moved an established tank...but changed the sand... Temps didn't cause your ammonia spike, nor hurt your rocks. The corals may not be happy but should be able to bounce back. I don't think moving in cold weather caused your problems at all.

This is what I believed happened:
Good bacteria colonies are mostly on your rock and sand, it only balances what is in the tank, when you replaced the sand, you lost a great deal of valuable good bacteria, so now that it's no longer balanced, the critters put out more ammonia then the tank could handle. The cure however was the same, wait for everything to rebalance.

For anyone reading this thread:
When you move a tank is not the time to change anything, don't wash the power heads, don't change the sand, don't even replace your filter media. It's very tempting to clean and replace stuff because it's all broke down, but because of the reasons I mentioned above, you must not do so.

Hi @flower I agree with 99 % of what you've said except. -- sand bed. ? I know it contains a lot of bacteria BUT in saying that I believe it contains just as many nasties.

1. The absorbed nutrients, phos and nitrates in particular can be a problem for months with a sand bed being moved in an established tank. , They have been know to leach for months. Causing all sorts of algea problems. that often are imposible to take care of, because of the volume of leaching.
2. If you take the time to rinse the sand then those nutrients are gone but so are the bacteria.
3. It is very easy even in a shallow sand bed (that hasnt been maintained_) for sulfide pockets to have formed, when disturbed it is lethal to livestock. It is virtually impossible to move a tank, rocks etc without disturbing these pockets.
4. That's why DSB's eventually have to be replaced, they say they cause old tank syndrome, which in simple terms is the sand, rocks etc have absorbed so much of the bad things, they start leaching it all back into the system. even DSB's in the sump eventually have to be replaced.
So on any move, upgrade etc I highly recommend a new sand bed to be used, especially with a tank older than 2yrs, and you don't know the history of sand bed maintenance of the previous owner.
Its just not worth all the head aches that come with an old bed, rather have a mini cyle, much easier to control and fix.

 

[flower]

Hi @flower I agree with 99 % of what you've said except. -- sand bed. ? I know it contains a lot of bacteria BUT in saying that I believe it contains just as many nasties.

1. The absorbed nutrients, phos and nitrates in particular can be a problem for months with a sand bed being moved in an established tank. , They have been know to leach for months. Causing all sorts of algea problems. that often are imposible to take care of, because of the volume of leaching.
2. If you take the time to rinse the sand then those nutrients are gone but so are the bacteria.
3. It is very easy even in a shallow sand bed (that hasnt been maintained_) for sulfide pockets to have formed, when disturbed it is lethal to livestock. It is virtually impossible to move a tank, rocks etc without disturbing these pockets.
4. That's why DSB's eventually have to be replaced, they say they cause old tank syndrome, which in simple terms is the sand, rocks etc have absorbed so much of the bad things, they start leaching it all back into the system. even DSB's in the sump eventually have to be replaced.
So on any move, upgrade etc I highly recommend a new sand bed to be used, especially with a tank older than 2yrs, and you don't know the history of sand bed maintenance of the previous owner.
Its just not worth all the head aches that come with an old bed, rather have a mini cyle, much easier to control and fix.

I have moved many times over the years, and the only critter I ever lost was a single cleaner shrimp. My post is a warning for those MOVING their tanks. It isn't the time to clean stuff up, keeping everything as close to what it was before breakdown is imperative. After everything has been removed, swish the sand in the tanks water before removing it to buckets for the move, this releases the toxins...then re-rinse in clean saltwater if you are worried...but never change it out. If a person want's to totally reset the tank, fine, but if you want to keep the critters alive that you are taking with you, don't do it. Changing out the sand un-balances the tanks good bacteria, which is far worse then nitrates and phosphates which can be cleared up with maintenance.

IMO 2 inches of sand is all that's needed, everything deeper is just a place to hold crap (literally)

 

[pegasus]

Sand beds have been the topic of discussions for many years, and will probably continue long after we're gone. I think once a sandbed has been disturbed by a move, it is best to rinse it in fresh water to remove all the naties. The beneficial bacteria is attached to the sand grains, so those won't be lost. There may be some die off, but only due to the reduced amount of nutrient available. The bacteria will repopulate. Rinsing the sand will remove any pockets of toxins, but care must be taken not to flush out all the critters that reside in the sand bed.

I also believe that the size of the sand grains should be what determines the depth of the bed. It will take a deeper bed of coarse sand to accomplish the same function of a shallow bed with fine grain sand. Some people look at sand as merely an object to mimic a sea floor. I look at it as a vital part of natural filtration. In order for a sandbed to be functional, it has to have enough depth to create an anaerobic (oxygen free) zone. This is where the nitrifying bacteria that consumes Nitrate lives. Naturally, the coarser the sand, the deeper it will have to be in order for this zone to materialize. Yes, you can create this zone in 2" of fine sand... but it'll take at least 3" of coarse sand.

Just because a sand bed is deep doesn't mean it "holds crap"... it's typically in the top inch or two. If oxygen molecules can't reach the lower level of sand, it's highly unlikely that crap will either. Just saying...

 

[bang guy]

Just to add on to Pegasus' line of thought, the best system I ever had happened to contain an 8" deep sand bed.