Newbie help. please.

[jmbdrummer]

Hello,

New to the saltwater world and had two damsels die within a day of each other.

Tank set up is a 24x24x12 it is considered a tall tank. Over the back filter. Live rock and crushed coral bottom.

I had my water tested the day my one died. Must have died while I was at the pet store. The water tested fine. My SG rose to .026 which I had been keeping it around .024 to .025. I keep the water around 80 degrees.

The tank has been up and running for 6 weeks with no other issues. I have done a water change previously about 4 weeks in. And have made sure to top off for evaporation. Monitoring the SG after water is added.
I recently added new RO water to bring the SG back down. This was after the first fish died. With that water change I was running low on RO water and added some purified water with it. I added some detoxifer that the LFS suggested as well being sure not to over dose it. Mixed it all then added it. The next evening is when my other fish died.

Any ideas or tips. I know I have a lot to learn. I am hoping to introduce copepods soon to support a mandarin goby in about 6 more weeks. The LFS should have the copepods in today. Not sure if I should add them to the tank now.

The fish seemed to be happy besides the one would chase the other. They would swim and hide in and around the live rock. One would hang out by the heater from time to time but the temp stayed the same.

 

[bang guy]

A couple suggestions:

1 - get your own test kits

2 - add only one fish at a time (unless they are a bonded pair)

3 - prepare the bacteria in your tank for the increase in bioload by ghost feeding the tank for the week before adding a new fish.

A couple questions:

1 - Do you make your own RO water?

2 - What do you topoff the tank with to keep the water level constant?

3 - Do you have an image of what the final tank will be?

 

[jmbdrummer]

I do not make my own RO water I get it at the LFS. I do add my own salt. And measure the SG with a CoralLife hydrometer. I buy 5 gallons of RO water at a time and then mix my salt in. I top off using that. I always add so to not shock the fish if there is a temp change. Always let it come back up to temp before adding more.
I have been feeding my fish regularly two times a day for the last 6 weeks. And my levels have been tested several times and seemed to have just fully cycled. The fish were in the same tank together at the LFS so I am not sure if they were matched pais. They were purchased at the same time. Thank you for your reply. And suggestions.

 

[flower]

Hello,

Welcome to the site!

First...Consider the loss of the damsels a blessing. They are cheap for a reason, they may be beautiful, but are so aggressive they will kill any other fish in the tank less timid then themselves, including each other, and when mature are known to draw blood when they bite you. They may have killed each other off. Always remember, what critter you add first dictates what can be added later. You should also invest in a 10g quarantine tank. It's an easy set up: A bubble air line, a piece of PVC pipe or plastic décor for the fish to hide and feel safe, a HOB filter, and a cheap light. Paint the outside bottom of the tank a dark color or set it on a towel.

A quarantine tank will not only keep your display tank clear of disease and parasites, it will help you regulate how fast you add your livestock...Too many too soon is the main reason for a tank crash when you first get started. If the parasite Ich gets into your system, you have to leave the tank without any fish for 6 to 8 weeks to get rid of it. A QT will save you lots of future headaches.

You really do need your own test kits. Get a Refractometer to measure you SG, hydrometers, and a Coralife at that, are not reliable. Next you don't need to add copepods of you have live rock. The LFS is happy to sell you stuff, so don't go asking them for any advice, go to the store knowing what you want or need. This site is awesome, and you will get all the advice you need, and we aren't trying to make money off of you.

I don't see a power head, the wave is the life of the ocean and your SW tank. There is less oxygen in SW then freshwater, the HOB is not enough to circulate the water for enough gas exchange. A background will really help the appearance of your set up.

A mandarin will quickly eat up an established tank's (over 1 year up and running) copepod population. Your tank, even seeded with pods, is not ready for a mandarin in 6 weeks. To keep a mandarin you need a refugium, and like I mentioned, an established tank. So wipe that critter off your list for at least a year.

 

[jmbdrummer]

Thank you for your reply. I was using the damsels to just cycle my tank. I found out how aggressive they are and planed to take them out before adding other fish. So I was kinda glad at that. But just concerned why they died. Didn't want to spend money on a new fish and have it die. I have a second tank I an going to set up and use it as a quarantine tank. It is 25 gallons. I have lI've rock and crushed coral for it just have started it yet.

Would I have parasites? How would I know?

I am looking into getting a power head just was hoping to make purchases slowly not all at once. But I may have been wrong about that.

Thanks for the advice about the mandarin. I am very sad now to hear I will have to wait that long. I know saltwater is a process and not to rush it. I was told after I added the copepods I would be okay after 4 to 6 weeks to get a mandarin.

I researched refugium and spoke with a few people and they said it wasn't completely necessary. But maybe I need to revisit the idea. Not sure how I would get it configured in my setup. But that is for future questions.

I just can't figure out why they died.

Now I am gun shy to buy more fish. I know it happens but if I buy more expensive fish I don't want to have the same problems.

 

[bang guy]

I buy 5 gallons of RO water at a time and then mix my salt in. I top off using that.

This is a problem.

When water evaporates, only the water evaporates leaving the salt behind. When topping off you just want to replenish the water so it needs to be fresh water. Topping off with saltwater is a good way of slowing raising your salinity so it can be useful but if you want to maintain the same salinity then you need unsalted water.

Do you have your own test kits for Ammonia, PH, Alkalinity and Calcium?

 

[jmbdrummer]

Okay that makes perfect sense to why my SG rose. I mixed the saltwater to have a lower SG to compensate for the higher SG in the tank thinking I didn't want it to change drastically.

I currently do not have my own test kit. I have been looking into getting one. But have not pulled the trigger on it just yet.

Any suggestions on test kits that won't break the bank?

What size power head would I need for my 30 gallon tank?

 

[lmforbis]

I like the salifert test kits. Usually people recommend against API. I also use the seachem kits but don't like them as much as salifert. check the expiration date before buying. Expired kits aren't accurate.

I use a 800 gph power head in my 20 gallon quarantine which is 24 x 12 just not as tall. Saltwater tanks need a lot of water movement.

 

[silverado61]

And get rid of the crushed coral. Live sand is much, much better.

 

[flower]

Thank you for your reply. I was using the damsels to just cycle my tank. I found out how aggressive they are and planed to take them out before adding other fish. So I was kinda glad at that. But just concerned why they died. Didn't want to spend money on a new fish and have it die. I have a second tank I an going to set up and use it as a quarantine tank. It is 25 gallons. I have lI've rock and crushed coral for it just have started it yet.

Would I have parasites? How would I know?

I am looking into getting a power head just was hoping to make purchases slowly not all at once. But I may have been wrong about that.

Thanks for the advice about the mandarin. I am very sad now to hear I will have to wait that long. I know saltwater is a process and not to rush it. I was told after I added the copepods I would be okay after 4 to 6 weeks to get a mandarin.

I researched refugium and spoke with a few people and they said it wasn't completely necessary. But maybe I need to revisit the idea. Not sure how I would get it configured in my setup. But that is for future questions.

I just can't figure out why they died.

Now I am gun shy to buy more fish. I know it happens but if I buy more expensive fish I don't want to have the same problems.

Hello,

As to WHY your fish died... if you were using the damsels to cycle the tank, then it wasn't cycled yet before you added the two fish, fish die in uncycled tanks, that's why we cycle first. Add the fact you didn't have good circulation by using a power head, the fish died. To cycle with live fish, you need to do what is called a SOFT cycle...that means you have to have ammonia tests handy, and as soon as you see a spike, you do a water change, that will keep the poor fish alive while it cycles with them in it. By doing those water changes, you also slow down the process. It's faster to not cycle with live fish.

You can cycle your tank a number of ways besides torturing live fish...All you need to kick start the cycle is ammonia. Ammonia can be added to your tank a number of ways: You can ghost feed an invisible fish for a few weeks, you can add pure ammonia, or you can put a chunk of raw shrimp and let it go bad... Once ammonia reaches about 1, (I would remove the raw rotten shrimp) let the tank sit, and the ammonia will become Nitrites, the nitrites will become Nitrates...the nitrates SHOULD be turned into a harmless gas, but the process takes too long, so we do water changes to keep nitrates down. Once the tank is properly cycled, you shouldn't see any ammonia or nitrite readings when you add a new fish.

The good bacteria built up during the cycle, only feeds on what is in the tank, once you add a new critter, the tank is again unbalanced. It takes a week or two or three, to develop enough good bacteria colonies to handle the new bio-load. This is why you only add one fish at a time, it gives the bacteria colony space to rebuild and adapt.

The ONLY way to know where you are in a cycle, and what your water parameters are, is your test kits. Purchasing master kits are cheaper then trying to buy them individually. There are just some items that must be gotten right away that can't wait. Test kits, a reliable SG reader, and power heads are IMO, must have pieces of equipment from the jump start.

There are in tank refugiums, you can also use egg crate (light diffuser panel) to create a safe place in the tank where pods can develop, by using macroalgae. There are also HOB refugiums. Mandarins are able to gobble up a couple of hundred pods a day, so thinking you can keep the tank seeded with enough of them is really not doable. It takes time to build up that kind of pod population, and they need a safe place, or the other fish will gobble them up.

I agree with Silverado, use sand. Crushed coral is hard on the CUC (Clean Up Crew) of snails and such, and lots of SW critters need the sand to dig through. Crushed coral always looks dirty to me.

 

[jmbdrummer]

I really appreciate the advice. I hope no one thinks I intended to kill the damsels. I was told by my LFS that would be an easy way to cycle my tank. I hadn't heard a hour the shrimp until after I had already our the fish. But I was assured by the LFS that bit would be okay. I have taken my water in to have it tested periodically just to ensure I was on the right track. The day they died my water tested perfect. I just know my SG was higher than usual. I would like to eventually change over to sand hut I don't think I will be able to right now.

 

[flower]

I really appreciate the advice. I hope no one thinks I intended to kill the damsels. I was told by my LFS that would be an easy way to cycle my tank. I hadn't heard a hour the shrimp until after I had already our the fish. But I was assured by the LFS that bit would be okay. I have taken my water in to have it tested periodically just to ensure I was on the right track. The day they died my water tested perfect. I just know my SG was higher than usual. I would like to eventually change over to sand hut I don't think I will be able to right now.

Hi,

Crushed coral isn't the end of the world, lots of people have it. You might have to work a little harder to keep it clean... no sand sifters for you...LOL.

As for the damsels dying, the water circulation (most likely) or perhaps their aggression toward each other played a part, if the ammonia hadn't spiked, and parameters were testing perfect... with live rock it's possible. Again, the LFS is the last place you want to go to for advice. Back in the day, a live fish was the method, and like I said, a soft cycle would help if ammonia were to climb. You should have had at least an ammonia alert tag, testing is the only way to know what's going on with your water. So before you invest in another fish, get your test kits. Before you add a living thing into the tank, get a power head to circulate the water. Invest in a refractometer, because IMO, Coralife anything is garbage....I don't get anything with that brand name anymore.

A good beginners book would have explained the top off thing to you, so you might want to invest in one, Robert Fenner's "the conscientious Aquarist" is a really good book.

 

[jmbdrummer]

Update: I recently purchased 800gph wavemaker power heads. I got a good deal on a set of them. I know they are probably not the best ones but they were in my budget.

I still have not bought any more fish. Very gun shy now. I did how ever put some crabs in the tank which seem to be doing very well. I added some new shells and they are moving into new homes. I went ahead and put both heads into the tank.

Would this be to much with fish? I put them in right now just to see what type of current it will make. Unfortunately they are not adjustable as far as the strength so I am wondering if two is way to much. Attached a picture so you can see the placement.

After topping off with strictly RO water my SG has leveled back off to 1.025 which is where I have been keeping it.

I have looked into a refractometer and my own test kits and as soon as I get the money they are going to be on the way. As of now I have been having the LFS test my water. They said it is perfect.

Thank you for any advice.

 

[flower]

Hi,

Those are not wave makers, those are Koralia power heads, and they are what I used when I had a reef (good choice). Your tank is a tall one, you may not need two. The more flow the better, but you don't want to blow the fish around, so when you add a fish, watch and see if it is struggling to swim, if so, then take one out.

Have a sit down with yourself and decide on what exactly you want in the tank as far as fish... build your system on it's needs, and choose companions that can get along well with it. With saltwater critters, gone are the days like freshwater fish, when you could go to the store and see a cool fish for sale and get it. You need to plan, and do your homework on every critter you add.

Don't be gun shy...set up a quarantine, they are inexpensive and easy to set up, and truly worth their weight in gold. Add your fish one at a time, and you should be just fine.

 

[jmbdrummer]

Thank you for the reply. The brand of the power heads was wavemaker so I didn't think they were anything special for that price.

I would love to eventually get a mandarin goby as previously stated. But I understand that crushed coral will not work. When I get the extra money I will switch it over. Not sure how that will affect the fish?

Can those power heads be put on a timer. I know they have actual wave timers and things. I would like to eventually get into corals down the road do I need to simulate the current changes as well? Alternating power heads?

 

[jay0705]

Since u dont have fish. Now is the time to change to sand. You can use dry sand its much cheaper. It will become live over time. Crushed is just a pain in the ass to clean lol

 

[jmbdrummer]

That's what i was hoping to do. Right now I have a cash shortage and thought about keeping it for a while. I have a secondtank I an going to eventually set up as a quarantine. Smaller than my current tank. 25 gallons I think. And I was going to hopefully use it to help with the transition. Thank you

 

[jmbdrummer]

Can you or should you put power heads on timers?

 

[jay0705]

Can u yes. I don't but u can. Wave makers alot do them on timers

 

[jmbdrummer]

I just didn't know how beneficial it would be. And since they may be to powerful to have them both in the tank at the same time, I was thinking alternating would allow for the current changes and still not be to much for the fish to have to swim though.