snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
Can we start a discussion on deep sand beds and their pros and cons?
Deep sand beds
- Thread starter snakeblitz33
- Start date
mandy111
Active Member
Personally I hate them. lol
I know people seem to think they serve a purpose and help with keeping nutrients low in a tank, but I have heard they also can contribute to old tank syndrome.
I used to have one on my old tank, that I hated the look of, the algae on the glass (between sand and glass ) the sand always looked dirty and you just were not able to stir or clean without fear of toxins being released into the tank.
We set the new tank up with a shallow sand bed, looks great, when I stir it once a week it feeds the corals, easy to vac once every few months.
My tanks is stable with parameters particularly Phos and nitrates, so I don't think it in my situation made any difference to the way the tank ran.
I also removed the DSB from my sump that I ran in the old tank too.
Once again I heard that down the track it eventually needs replacing and become ineffective. So I replaced with lots of chateau and live rock instead.
Just my 2 cents.
I know people seem to think they serve a purpose and help with keeping nutrients low in a tank, but I have heard they also can contribute to old tank syndrome.
I used to have one on my old tank, that I hated the look of, the algae on the glass (between sand and glass ) the sand always looked dirty and you just were not able to stir or clean without fear of toxins being released into the tank.
We set the new tank up with a shallow sand bed, looks great, when I stir it once a week it feeds the corals, easy to vac once every few months.
My tanks is stable with parameters particularly Phos and nitrates, so I don't think it in my situation made any difference to the way the tank ran.
I also removed the DSB from my sump that I ran in the old tank too.
Once again I heard that down the track it eventually needs replacing and become ineffective. So I replaced with lots of chateau and live rock instead.
Just my 2 cents.
robertmathern1
Member
A deep sand bed imo is a very poorly understood concept in this hobby to this day. What is the reason for a DSB? How does it even work? How deep is considered deep?
In my opinion the misunderstanding of these questions (and others) are the very reason deep sand beds get a bad rap.
In most cases everyone knows it is used for filtration but if not used and maintained correctly it can very easily crash a tank.
IMO a deep sand bed must be at a minimum of 6" deep. this will ensure very little circulation makes it down to the bottom couple inches. With little circulation bacteria can convert nitrates into nitrogen gas. Which will be released by regularly stirring the sand. As we stir the sand we release the nitrogen and also allow for more nitrates to reach the deep area of the sand bed and repeating the cycle.
Most hobbists today are deadly afraid to stir the sand as it can crash there tank. However this would not be an issue if the DSB was maintained propery. If the DSB is left unchecked then it will build up an overabundance of nitrogen gas that if released all at once will wipe out everything in the tank. That is where sand sifters like star fish and gobies can be of use in the aquarium. By them doing there thing and moving the sand around little by little all day long. It will release the nitrogen that will then be removed by normal gas exchange in our tanks also allowing more nitrates to find there way back to the bottom of the sand to be consumed. I will say though that sand sifters are the way to go in a DSB the hobbyist must do there part.
Pros:
If maintained properly can reduce nitrates and aid in your biological filtration.
Makes the overall depth of the tank shallower for deep tanks allowing more par on the surface of the sand for more light demanding corals, nems and clams.
Cons:
If left unchecked can wipe out your tank. Also if left unchecked will do nothing for nitrates as they have to make it deep into the sand bed to be consumed and with the sand bed being an area with the least amount of flow (as not to create a sandstorm)nitrates need to be helped along. Via stirring the sand often and sand sifters.
: Unsightly algae and nasties between the sand and the glass. (This can be combated by maintaining the DSB and also with a little thought you can hide it by putting black plastic against the glass or my favorite a little black paint.
Thats all I got for now lets see what others have in mind
In my opinion the misunderstanding of these questions (and others) are the very reason deep sand beds get a bad rap.
In most cases everyone knows it is used for filtration but if not used and maintained correctly it can very easily crash a tank.
IMO a deep sand bed must be at a minimum of 6" deep. this will ensure very little circulation makes it down to the bottom couple inches. With little circulation bacteria can convert nitrates into nitrogen gas. Which will be released by regularly stirring the sand. As we stir the sand we release the nitrogen and also allow for more nitrates to reach the deep area of the sand bed and repeating the cycle.
Most hobbists today are deadly afraid to stir the sand as it can crash there tank. However this would not be an issue if the DSB was maintained propery. If the DSB is left unchecked then it will build up an overabundance of nitrogen gas that if released all at once will wipe out everything in the tank. That is where sand sifters like star fish and gobies can be of use in the aquarium. By them doing there thing and moving the sand around little by little all day long. It will release the nitrogen that will then be removed by normal gas exchange in our tanks also allowing more nitrates to find there way back to the bottom of the sand to be consumed. I will say though that sand sifters are the way to go in a DSB the hobbyist must do there part.
Pros:
If maintained properly can reduce nitrates and aid in your biological filtration.
Makes the overall depth of the tank shallower for deep tanks allowing more par on the surface of the sand for more light demanding corals, nems and clams.
Cons:
If left unchecked can wipe out your tank. Also if left unchecked will do nothing for nitrates as they have to make it deep into the sand bed to be consumed and with the sand bed being an area with the least amount of flow (as not to create a sandstorm)nitrates need to be helped along. Via stirring the sand often and sand sifters.
: Unsightly algae and nasties between the sand and the glass. (This can be combated by maintaining the DSB and also with a little thought you can hide it by putting black plastic against the glass or my favorite a little black paint.
Thats all I got for now lets see what others have in mind
I absolutely love them. I can't speak to the "old tank syndrome" since that never happened to me. (I only had the tank with the DSB a few yrs before I had to move and sell off my tank.) I followed Ron Shimek's "teaching" at the time (early-mid 2000's). I was very interested in the DSB eco-system and taking care of that. My DSB was 6". I had no filters, no refugium. I did have a HOB skimmer and kept cheato in tank. I carefully tended the DSB just because I was pretty interested in that aspect of the hobby. I never had ammonia, nitrites, nitrates in that tank. It never "cycled". Set up with 6" of live sand and live rock I got from SWF. I allowed the tank to settle in for 2 mos before adding anything, of course, feeding the life that came with the LR and what was developing in the DSB.
Bang Guy kept a huge lagoon DSB (I believe it was the lagoon) so he would have a lot more exp with it than I. But, I just like that ecosystem and "creating it". I also like the great water quality I got from it. I can understand the people who hate the 6" of sand on display at the bottom, but I was cool with it.
Bang Guy kept a huge lagoon DSB (I believe it was the lagoon) so he would have a lot more exp with it than I. But, I just like that ecosystem and "creating it". I also like the great water quality I got from it. I can understand the people who hate the 6" of sand on display at the bottom, but I was cool with it.
pegasus
Well-Known Member
I added an additional 120 lbs of Caribsea Arag-Alive Special Grade Reef to my used 125 gallon tank after I bought it. It specifically states on the bag: "Never needs replacing. Unlike limestone and dolomite, Arag-Alive! remains chemically active for the life of the aquarium."
In addition to the sand in the tank, I set up a 30 gallon tub with 120 lbs of play sand from Lowe's. It's over a foot deep, with a slow flow of water over it. Water enters one end of the tub, and exits on the other. A nozzle spreads the flow, and three bulkheads keep the flow evenly dispersed. The tub stays covered, and no light ever gets in. I used to dose this DSB with NO3 : PO4 - X until it got a substantial, and sustainable level of bacteria built up. I no longer dose my tank (been almost a year since I stopped), and if I'm feeling frisky, I might do a 10% water change every couple of months or so. NO3 is non-detectable, and PO4 is <.04 ppm. Several months ago, I removed the Miracle Mud from my refugium and put in 40 lbs of Arag-Alive! Fiji Pink sand. My 40B has 60 lbs of Fiji Pink sand in it also, and both tanks share the same water. Between the two tanks, remote DSB, and refugium, I have roughly 370 lbs of sand to filter approximately 150 gallons of water. My parameters are rock steady, and I attribute it mainly to the natural filtration all that sand offers. Sure, I have live rocks as well, but far more sand. Just my 2c...
In addition to the sand in the tank, I set up a 30 gallon tub with 120 lbs of play sand from Lowe's. It's over a foot deep, with a slow flow of water over it. Water enters one end of the tub, and exits on the other. A nozzle spreads the flow, and three bulkheads keep the flow evenly dispersed. The tub stays covered, and no light ever gets in. I used to dose this DSB with NO3 : PO4 - X until it got a substantial, and sustainable level of bacteria built up. I no longer dose my tank (been almost a year since I stopped), and if I'm feeling frisky, I might do a 10% water change every couple of months or so. NO3 is non-detectable, and PO4 is <.04 ppm. Several months ago, I removed the Miracle Mud from my refugium and put in 40 lbs of Arag-Alive! Fiji Pink sand. My 40B has 60 lbs of Fiji Pink sand in it also, and both tanks share the same water. Between the two tanks, remote DSB, and refugium, I have roughly 370 lbs of sand to filter approximately 150 gallons of water. My parameters are rock steady, and I attribute it mainly to the natural filtration all that sand offers. Sure, I have live rocks as well, but far more sand. Just my 2c...
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snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
Great responses!
Robert, I just wanted to clarify one thing. Nitrogen gas is relatively harmless and unreactive. What many are concerned with is hydrogen sulfide, which is a chemical left over from the breakdown of nitrate. It smells like rotten eggs.
I have a deep sandbed in my 29g tank of at least 6" and couldn't be happier.
Robert, I just wanted to clarify one thing. Nitrogen gas is relatively harmless and unreactive. What many are concerned with is hydrogen sulfide, which is a chemical left over from the breakdown of nitrate. It smells like rotten eggs.
I have a deep sandbed in my 29g tank of at least 6" and couldn't be happier.
robertmathern1
Member
Yep not sure why I was thinking nitrogen for. Must have to much nitrogen on the brain.
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
under the assumption it is working as intented what is happening is you have low oxygen bacteria reducing nitrates to nitrItes and then to nitrogen gas. So at the sand surface you have nitrogen gas, low nitrates, low oxygen and some phosphates. Cyano can fix nitrogen gas as opposed to using ammonia nitrates for nitrogen. So you have the ideal conditions for forming cyano.
If it is not working the nitrates can be reduced to nitrites and they further reduced to ammonia and returning that ammonia to the system. Which is hardly a desirable or stable system.
And all that to consume nitrates.
IMHO algae (corraline or macros) consume nitrates as well as phosphates and carbon dioxide and return oxygen and fish food. Plus should something go bump in the night algae actually prefers to consume any spike in ammonia not being reduced by bacteria. To me that is a much more stable operation and highly desirable.
I started on this board back in dec 2003 and frankly was dumbfounded by the then fad of dsbs. And a few later there were reports of tank crashes after ~5 years of operation. Posters explained it off as not enough sand critters and the like. But to me is was 1) just another fad and 2) the basic operation of the bed itself is unstable.
my .02
If it is not working the nitrates can be reduced to nitrites and they further reduced to ammonia and returning that ammonia to the system. Which is hardly a desirable or stable system.
And all that to consume nitrates.
IMHO algae (corraline or macros) consume nitrates as well as phosphates and carbon dioxide and return oxygen and fish food. Plus should something go bump in the night algae actually prefers to consume any spike in ammonia not being reduced by bacteria. To me that is a much more stable operation and highly desirable.
I started on this board back in dec 2003 and frankly was dumbfounded by the then fad of dsbs. And a few later there were reports of tank crashes after ~5 years of operation. Posters explained it off as not enough sand critters and the like. But to me is was 1) just another fad and 2) the basic operation of the bed itself is unstable.
my .02
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
Algae and macros in a thriving tank like yours that crashed once a year, Bob?
robertmathern1
Member
Macros are good however most do not have enough room to have enough macro to actually do much as far as nutrient export. And just like a deep sand bed if not properly maintained will eventually crash your tank. Chetiao is a fairly safe bet for a tank but again most people just dont have enough to really do much if anything besides grow pods and even that is questionable in the case of say a mandarin.
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Just for the record I had one tank crash in 9 years of operation. after I used latex gloves with an oil on then attempting to frag some corals.Algae and macros in a thriving tank like yours that crashed once a year, Bob?
And on the space issue--I used an in tank refugium 3" in front of the back glass. my two tangs (in that 55g) had plenty of chaeto to graze on all day. and nitrates and phosphates were unmeasurable.
my .02
jay0705
Well-Known Member
Poor bob lol. I like macros myself. Now secondary is the fact they can remove nasties from your tank, my primary use is tang food. All three of mine love the stuff, aswell as my newly added puffer. That said in my 75 I have what I felt was a dsb , 4" sand bed. Never had an issue sand looks brand new bc I have a sand sifting goby he does a great job. Now in another tank I have a shallow bed. Just on looks, I like the deeper look. Its holds rocks more securely, ect. Just my .02 tho
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
Yep you're correct.
I did have another "crash" in the tank on my porch when water temperature rose to over 100 because a heater stuck on. Not too many corals survived that. So guess that's two crashes.
Od course I don't recommend tanks basically outside nor do I recommend heaters.
On the 30g in the air-conditioned house that never happened.
Once I started spot feedings the corals spread and did very well with the exception of the few sps frags I tried.