1Journeyman - Would like your input

tangman99

tangman99

Active Member
I enjoy seeing your debates and you are one of the best at doing the research and providing support to your viewpoints that you post. I have my own opinion about two things but was wondering what your viewpoint is on these two subjects which I hope can coexist in the same thread:
1. What is your take on the Airforce awarding the new 35 billion dollar contract to Airbus instead of Boeing knowing that it was going to create 19,000 new jobs at Boeing and sending all that money out of the country?
2. What is your opinion on the good and the bad of the dollar compared to the euro? Obviously it costs us more to buy foreign products with the exchange rate. At the same time, foreigners are coming here to buy things because of the exchange rate and sending money back our way. I know the ratio of what we buy compared to what they buy though is highly slanted against us.
 
renogaw

renogaw

Active Member
I'd like to know his opinion on the Army giving everyone $40k to buy a house or start a business... I mean, where's that money coming from?
 
mfp1016

mfp1016

Member
Originally Posted by renogaw
http:///forum/post/2502336
I'd like to know his opinion on the Army giving everyone $40k to buy a house or start a business... I mean, where's that money coming from?
Perhaps you should start your own thread instead of piggy backing on someone else's very clearly defined thread.....unless of course thread amnesty is granted.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by TangMan99
http:///forum/post/2502177
I enjoy seeing your debates and you are one of the best at doing the research and providing support to your viewpoints that you post. I have my own opinion about two things but was wondering what your viewpoint is on these two subjects which I hope can coexist in the same thread:
1. What is your take on the Airforce awarding the new 35 billion dollar contract to Airbus instead of Boeing knowing that it was going to create 19,000 new jobs at Boeing and sending all that money out of the country?
2. What is your opinion on the good and the bad of the dollar compared to the euro? Obviously it costs us more to buy foreign products with the exchange rate. At the same time, foreigners are coming here to buy things because of the exchange rate and sending money back our way. I know the ratio of what we buy compared to what they buy though is highly slanted against us.
Who knows, Boeing was originally awarded that contract in 2003 then it came out that they had recieved info on competing bids and ended up paying something like 600 million in damages. Big oops, they ended up going through a corporate ethics shakeup.
And it isn't as if everything is going overseas, the planes are going to be assembled in Alabama. Some how EADS ( the parent Organization) who also has Airbus under its wing, conviced that they didn't have the problems with Grumman than Airbus had with engineering. And the security was tight enough since the planes are being assembled in the USA that it was worth the deal. Maybe the airforce brass were bored and felt like stiring up a hornets nest.
On a exchange rate front, all these deals are hedged to minimize exchange rate risk, and in the bucket of 35 billion dollars it is pretty inexpensive. What is really crazy is that they had to have beat Boeing pretty bad, because they have to clear a 20% difference for the federal government to buy foreign vs domestic. Unless it a certain percentage of the project is domestic.
But it isn't as if Northop-Grumman hasn't produced other stuff for our military such as (I may loose you non-airplane enthusiasts) the A-6 Intruder,
P-61 Black Widow, F-5, T-38, F-20 Tigershark, B-2, YF-23, F6F Hellcat, A6 Intruder, EA-6 , F-14, F-18. The spirit of St. Louis was a Northop airplane. (Some of these were produced before they merged). Another interesting tidbit is that they built the lunar lander. So it isn't as if this is totally unpresidented.
 
renogaw

renogaw

Active Member
Originally Posted by mfp1016
http:///forum/post/2502390
Perhaps you should start your own thread instead of piggy backing on someone else's very clearly defined thread.....unless of course thread amnesty is granted.
lol consider my hand slapped!
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by TangMan99
http:///forum/post/2502177
...
1. What is your take on the Airforce awarding the new 35 billion dollar contract to Airbus instead of Boeing knowing that it was going to create 19,000 new jobs at Boeing and sending all that money out of the country?
2. What is your opinion on the good and the bad of the dollar compared to the euro? Obviously it costs us more to buy foreign products with the exchange rate. At the same time, foreigners are coming here to buy things because of the exchange rate and sending money back our way. I know the ratio of what we buy compared to what they buy though is highly slanted against us.
First, thanks for the kind words. It seems more and more like people have become sponges; willing to absorb anything told to them as long as they trust the speaker. I first noticed this back in college. This so dangerous, and one of the reasons I really do try to site articles to back up my "facts" and opinions. I have no problem with someone I disagree with. I have a terrible issue, however, when people post information that is clearly wrong and act as though it is factual. In the day and age when we debate on the internet and there are a whole host of reliable sources to check info before you post there is just no excuse for it. People seem to be willing to trade personal integrity for the sake of laziness. That, and the fact that people are unwilling to try to learn the truth, genuinely scares me. Maybe that's why conspircacy theories abound in the 21st century.

Anyway, to your questions..
1. From a personal standpoint I hate it. From a news standpoint I don't know much about it. And from a business sense and taxpayer viewpoint I'm all for it. The military has a budget and I understand the need to "shop" around; provided two things-
A. Was it a level playing field? Is Airbus subsidized by their government? Does their government allow our companies to competitively bid on their government contracts on a level playing field?
B. Does the competing company operate in an unfriendly country or do business with our enemies.
So, while I personally hate it, as long as France is being fair trade wise (which I don't know) and as long as France is cooperating on our war on terror then I'm ok with it.
Now, had France re-elected Chirac the last go round I would be vehemently against any deal with them.
I reserve the right, as always, to change my opinion once I learn more about it, however

2. I hate a weak dollar. The end.
I hate foreign investors buying US Companies. I hate foreign investors buying US properties. There is a large part of me that wants to "Chavez" everything back away from the foreigners.... That's not practical though.
Another part of me is proud. While the media, and a certain political party, tells us the world hates us, people from all over the world risk their lives crossing the deserts of the SW to get a chance to work here illegally. People are buying real estate for vaction homes at record levels. That doesn't sound to me like they hate it here. Sounds to me like they want to live here and bring their families here. I take pride in that.
To be quite frank, Economics is one of my weakest subjects. I majored in Biology with a Marine emphasis and minored in Chemistry. I was only required to take 3 hours of Eco. and my class load prevented me from deviating from that. So when we start talking about the weak dollar I'm out of my element. I hate it; and I have no idea why it occurs or how to prevent it. All I know is that it tends to be cyclical.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by renogaw
http:///forum/post/2502336
I'd like to know his opinion on the Army giving everyone $40k to buy a house or start a business... I mean, where's that money coming from?
Hehe, I'll answer, and if it gets distracting I'll split the thread.
First, I want a balanced budget and want our Gov to start paying off the National Debt.
Now, as for rewarding our troops. I have no problem with this. This is one of the things I'll gladly pay taxes towards. As long as instead of heaping it onto the debt we cut it from elsewhere in the budget. I do not know the particulars of the plan, but if there is accountability for the spending rather than just giving a bonus check all the better. New businesses and home ownership are both great for the economy.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
But don't worry I think congress is going to investigate!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7276232.stm
And according to the EADS there will be 25,000 jobs that will be created or supported by this contract.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
One thing I think needs to be factored into the bids is if the loss of even part of the jobs created to another country offsets any cost savings in the bid itself. I think the country should also be considered as well. I dont ever want to see that business going to an anti American country. If this had went to France while Chirac was still in charge I would be outragged.
 
apos

apos

Member
The reality is we can either have a true competitive bidding process, in which case we have to accept that American companies will not always win, or affirmative action for American companies, in which case we may not always get the best deal. Either way can work, and both have upsides and downsides, but we have to pick one and stick with it, and take the downsides rather than complaining about them as if they were a surprise. Obviously if the bidding process is unfair there may be a cause for concern, but we also can't agree to fair rules and then complain every time we don't win.
The sad reality is that much of our military construction--where it is done and how--is based more on what powerful Congress people are in what areas rather than what makes things most economically efficient. This sometimes can cripple our ability to do things as cheaply as we should be able to.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
The airforce did say that they wanted the larger platform that EADS offered. Basically that EADS offered an aircraft that fit the Airforces needs better than Boeing. But apearantly Boeing's aircraft were significantly cheaper, by the tune of 35 million dollars an aircraft. But it wasn't an apples to apples comparison on the plane. Through the Bidding process I'm not sure how Boeing would have missed the WE WANT A GIANT AIRPLANE clarifications.
 
tangman99

tangman99

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2502392
But it isn't as if Northop-Grumman hasn't produced other stuff for our military such as (I may loose you non-airplane enthusiasts) the A-6 Intruder,
P-61 Black Widow, F-5, T-38, F-20 Tigershark, B-2, YF-23, F6F Hellcat, A6 Intruder, EA-6 , F-14, F-18. The spirit of St. Louis was a Northop airplane. (Some of these were produced before they merged). Another interesting tidbit is that they built the lunar lander. So it isn't as if this is totally unpresidented.

Being one physical exam short of flying F-14 in the U.S. Navy and having a love of military aircraft from an early age, I know everyone of those aircraft.
In reference to the T-38 vs the F-5, I believe the T-38 was a two seater while the F-5 was a single. (Trainer vs Fighter)
Interesting perspectives and thanks 1journeyman for replying. I'm out on a limb with this one. I have worked with some people from Boeing and I could just see them thinking this was a done deal and going for every dollar they could get but like you, I hate to see it. It's nothing that hasn't been going on for the last 10 years with all the off shoring and out sourcing in the private sector. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out if anything at all comes of it.
With the dollar being so weak, I'm actually thinking of starting to trade currency. Not too sure yet, but seriously considering it.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Well after wondering about the relationship between northrop Grumman and EADS. Here is the skinny. I'd just assumed that Northrop Grumman (an american company and the second biggest government defense contractor) had been bought out by EADS (a quazi-nationalized aerospace company Airbus is a subsidiary), but I was wrong. This bid was actually a joint effort with Northrop Grumman and EADS. Northrop Grumman basically providing the foot in the door and satisfying the security and military aspect and EADS through airbus providing the platform (the airplane) So it isn't quite so knee jerk we awarded this to a foreign country. There is an american company traded on the NYSE that is a joint venture in this deal. According to Northrop Grumman 60 - 70% of the plane will be assembled in the USA. (the downside is the engineering won't I don't think) If Boeing had been awarded the contract the fuselage and tail of the Boeing 767 would have been built overseas.
It just goes to show how this world economy is truely global.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...ess/industries
 
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