A Little Help on PH Again
- Thread starter stumpdog
- Start date
stumpdog
Member
broomer-
I've taken your advice and the new batch of water has been aerating (SP?) for about 24 hrs now. The Ph of it is right in between 7.4 and 7.7. I will add the salt now and continue to mix for another 24 hrs and see what the Ph does. If the Ph doesn't come up does that mean I just have a bad batch of salt from IO? Is there anyway to get IO to refund it?
Tanks-
Jeremy
I've taken your advice and the new batch of water has been aerating (SP?) for about 24 hrs now. The Ph of it is right in between 7.4 and 7.7. I will add the salt now and continue to mix for another 24 hrs and see what the Ph does. If the Ph doesn't come up does that mean I just have a bad batch of salt from IO? Is there anyway to get IO to refund it?
Tanks-
Jeremy
broomer5
Active Member
Jeremy,
Let the newly mixed saltwater aerate overnight 24 hours as you stated .. then test tomorrow around noon.
Let us know what it tests out at.
It's pH should be higher than 7.7 this time around.
If not .. you can add marine buffers.
But do not add to the new saltwater batch.
Mix the buffer powder in your freshwater top off water, and slowly add as make up water.
Dosing a batch of new saltwater ( small batches especially ) can lead to disaster if not done just right. It's very easy to not do it right. If you overdose the waterchange batch - you can ruin it.
Totally ruin it.
Dosing a marine buffer into your make up water, and adding this slowly to your entire tank ( 55 gallon ) is a much better approach in my opinion.
It's the tankwater pH we are concerned about - so we should dose the tank - not the 10 gallons of waterchange saltwater.
Slowly raising pH in the tankwater can take weeks - not days - and is always preferred.
IMO
Let the newly mixed saltwater aerate overnight 24 hours as you stated .. then test tomorrow around noon.
Let us know what it tests out at.
It's pH should be higher than 7.7 this time around.
If not .. you can add marine buffers.
But do not add to the new saltwater batch.
Mix the buffer powder in your freshwater top off water, and slowly add as make up water.
Dosing a batch of new saltwater ( small batches especially ) can lead to disaster if not done just right. It's very easy to not do it right. If you overdose the waterchange batch - you can ruin it.
Totally ruin it.
Dosing a marine buffer into your make up water, and adding this slowly to your entire tank ( 55 gallon ) is a much better approach in my opinion.
It's the tankwater pH we are concerned about - so we should dose the tank - not the 10 gallons of waterchange saltwater.
Slowly raising pH in the tankwater can take weeks - not days - and is always preferred.
IMO
stumpdog
Member
broomer and all-
Thanks for all the replies. I let the salt mix aerate for a little over 24 hrs, and the pH is at 7.7ish now. Going off of what Col said I am assuming my salt is okay and I will start to dose with a buffer using top-off water. Any suggestions on the choice buffer?
Tanks again-
Jeremy
Thanks for all the replies. I let the salt mix aerate for a little over 24 hrs, and the pH is at 7.7ish now. Going off of what Col said I am assuming my salt is okay and I will start to dose with a buffer using top-off water. Any suggestions on the choice buffer?
Tanks again-
Jeremy
bang guy
Moderator
Before adding the buffer be sure to test you water to see if it's needed. The assumption that adding low PH water to your tank is going to drop the PH of the tank is not accurate.
My guess is that doing a water change with saltwater at a PH of 7.7 is NOT going to affect you display tank at all.
Baking Soda is a good buffer for occational use.
My guess is that doing a water change with saltwater at a PH of 7.7 is NOT going to affect you display tank at all.
Baking Soda is a good buffer for occational use.
stumpdog
Member
I'm back...
Bob-
I appreciate your advice, but I didn't follow through. I live in Lawrence, KS and our tap water is horrible. The LFS (all of them) put up big warning signs about the water. We have one of the most polluted rivers in the nation, that is right the nation. Granted our water is treated but still very dirty.
Broomer-
I purchased another 5 gallon jug and let it aerate over night in a rubbermade container. This was the water I was planning on using for top offs per previous advice. After 24hrs the pH was around 7.4-7.7ish which is normal for this water. I added some buffer into the water and let it aerate some more. After about 15 hrs the pH was between 8.3-8.6, yeah. Now this morning I checked it again, about 40 hrs since adding the buffer and it is back down to 7.7ish. What is up with that? I will go get this water tested and see what they say to make sure my test kit isn't funky, and I had the SO check the color chart to make sure I wasn't mismatching the shades.
Confused and Flustered-
Jeremy
Bob-
I appreciate your advice, but I didn't follow through. I live in Lawrence, KS and our tap water is horrible. The LFS (all of them) put up big warning signs about the water. We have one of the most polluted rivers in the nation, that is right the nation. Granted our water is treated but still very dirty.
Broomer-
I purchased another 5 gallon jug and let it aerate over night in a rubbermade container. This was the water I was planning on using for top offs per previous advice. After 24hrs the pH was around 7.4-7.7ish which is normal for this water. I added some buffer into the water and let it aerate some more. After about 15 hrs the pH was between 8.3-8.6, yeah. Now this morning I checked it again, about 40 hrs since adding the buffer and it is back down to 7.7ish. What is up with that? I will go get this water tested and see what they say to make sure my test kit isn't funky, and I had the SO check the color chart to make sure I wasn't mismatching the shades.
Confused and Flustered-
Jeremy
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
stump: I did not suggest you use your tap water in you tank, just test a small mixture. I highly suspect the ro/di is the source of your low ph. If the ph of your tap water based saltwater is 8.4 then buffering your tank and ro/di water may be a good idea.
ps. it is no suprize LFSs recommend another $200 + sale.
ps. it is no suprize LFSs recommend another $200 + sale.
broomer5
Active Member
Jeremy
There's no great mystery happening here.
We use Ro or RO/DI water because it is pure.
Impurities are removed from the process which is our aim - right.
Unfortunately, most everything else is removed along with potential impurities - including elements in the tapwater such as magnesium, calcium, and compounds such as bicarbonates, carbonates.
These minerals in the tapwater give it a higher pH than that of RO or RO/DI water.
Using tapwater most always results in a mixed batch of saltwater that has a higher pH than saltwater mixed from Ro or RO/DI.
No mystery at all.
But the advantages of using RO or RO/DI in this hobby, for your saltwater and all top offs are in most all cases, far greater than using straight tapwater.
That's why folks use buffers.
The tankwater's pH will naturally fall over time.
The use of RO or RO/DI water will often lead to new batches of saltwater that have low pH - even after you aerate it.
The thing to remember is that you want to buffer the tankwater by mixing buffer compounds in the fresh RO / RODI water - and using this for top offs. This will slowly build alkalinity, slowly raise pH ..... and if you test often you should not overshoot.
Trying to "buffer" a new batch of saltwater can lead to real problems in my opinion.
Do not give up on using the RO or RO/DI water though.
This is one of the best things you can do for your tankwater.
Adjust the tankwater - not the batch of saltwater for small partial water changes.
The only time I would try to really "tweek" the newly mixed batch of saltwater - would be if I had a large volume, as in doing a large emergency water change.
Otherwise for routine partial water changes - proceed with the change - and tweek the tank afterwards.
As Bang Guy mentioned - doing a 5-10% water change with saltwater at pH of 7.7, may not necessarily pull the entire tank's pH down.
One last note. Our pH test kits ( and even electronic pH monitors ) are very lousy for measuring the pH of RO water, and even worse for measuring RO/DI water.
They will read wrong most every time in pure/ultrapure water.
There's no great mystery happening here.
We use Ro or RO/DI water because it is pure.
Impurities are removed from the process which is our aim - right.
Unfortunately, most everything else is removed along with potential impurities - including elements in the tapwater such as magnesium, calcium, and compounds such as bicarbonates, carbonates.
These minerals in the tapwater give it a higher pH than that of RO or RO/DI water.
Using tapwater most always results in a mixed batch of saltwater that has a higher pH than saltwater mixed from Ro or RO/DI.
No mystery at all.
But the advantages of using RO or RO/DI in this hobby, for your saltwater and all top offs are in most all cases, far greater than using straight tapwater.
That's why folks use buffers.
The tankwater's pH will naturally fall over time.
The use of RO or RO/DI water will often lead to new batches of saltwater that have low pH - even after you aerate it.
The thing to remember is that you want to buffer the tankwater by mixing buffer compounds in the fresh RO / RODI water - and using this for top offs. This will slowly build alkalinity, slowly raise pH ..... and if you test often you should not overshoot.
Trying to "buffer" a new batch of saltwater can lead to real problems in my opinion.
Do not give up on using the RO or RO/DI water though.
This is one of the best things you can do for your tankwater.
Adjust the tankwater - not the batch of saltwater for small partial water changes.
The only time I would try to really "tweek" the newly mixed batch of saltwater - would be if I had a large volume, as in doing a large emergency water change.
Otherwise for routine partial water changes - proceed with the change - and tweek the tank afterwards.
As Bang Guy mentioned - doing a 5-10% water change with saltwater at pH of 7.7, may not necessarily pull the entire tank's pH down.
One last note. Our pH test kits ( and even electronic pH monitors ) are very lousy for measuring the pH of RO water, and even worse for measuring RO/DI water.
They will read wrong most every time in pure/ultrapure water.
stumpdog
Member
broomer-
I am not considering giving up my RO water, and I think I didn't make myself clear on my previous explanation. If I did just reply shush and I will get it.
The batch I mixed was for top offs. I purchased 5 gallons of RO water and aerated it for 24 hrs, no salt in it. The pH was 7.4-7.7ish. Then I added the buffer and only the buffer to the aerated and unsalted water to bring the pH up for top offs only. After about 15hrs the pH was 8.3-8.6. Then I checked the aerated, unsalted, and buffered water about 48hrs later and the pH is back down to the 7.4-7.7ish mark. I understand that pH will drop, but I didn't think it would in water that had no living organisms in it. Does this make senese?
Bob-
I apologize I misunderstood your suggestion. I am goof.
Tanks-
Jeremy
I am not considering giving up my RO water, and I think I didn't make myself clear on my previous explanation. If I did just reply shush and I will get it.
The batch I mixed was for top offs. I purchased 5 gallons of RO water and aerated it for 24 hrs, no salt in it. The pH was 7.4-7.7ish. Then I added the buffer and only the buffer to the aerated and unsalted water to bring the pH up for top offs only. After about 15hrs the pH was 8.3-8.6. Then I checked the aerated, unsalted, and buffered water about 48hrs later and the pH is back down to the 7.4-7.7ish mark. I understand that pH will drop, but I didn't think it would in water that had no living organisms in it. Does this make senese?
Bob-
I apologize I misunderstood your suggestion. I am goof.
Tanks-
Jeremy
broomer5
Active Member
The RO is basically pretty pure water.
Not much in there except H2O right
Pure water will dissociate ( comes apart ) all the time.
The H2O spits into two separate parts.
H+
and
OH-
When we measure pH, we're measuring the relative concentration of H+ ions in the water.
Pure RO water has little buffering capacity. It's pH is affected fast in both directions.
If we add H+ it will drop fast.
If we add carbonates/bicarbonates/buffers - it will rise fast.
But it can also go the other way fast too because there is little capacity for it not to. It's pH can swing like crazy - depending on what's acting upon it.
Not until we build up some buffering capacity ( alkalinity ) will the RO water resist changes in the pH.
Adding a small amount of buffer powder to the RO water, would indeed drive the pH up temporarily as you saw. But without alkalinity ( buffering CAPACITY ) then the pH will drop back down again ...... ESPECIALLY if you are aerating it.
It's the CO2 that combines with H2O that can form the H2CO3 carbonic acid. This happens all the time in both freshwater and saltwater. It depends on it's equalibrium at the time, and it shifts back and forth too.
If you added buffers to the fresh RO water - you would need to add enough for the water to have a capacity to resist future pH changes. This is what alkalinity is all about.
Unfortunately - we don't normaly bother with all of this in our top off water.
We add the buffer to the top off water - and after it's mixed real good - we immediately add it to our tankwater.
The tankwater "should" have some level of alkalinity already - and the buffer "adds" to this level ... increasing it over time.
The pH then resists changes ( drops ) with sufficient alkalinity.
What you're noticed in your buffered RO freshwater is just a natural process that goes on all the time in any water that is very pure, that has little if any buffering capacity, that has very low alkalinity.
Add your buffer to the RO, stir it up good, and add this to the tankwater for buffering.
See ya
Not much in there except H2O right
Pure water will dissociate ( comes apart ) all the time.
The H2O spits into two separate parts.
H+
and
OH-
When we measure pH, we're measuring the relative concentration of H+ ions in the water.
Pure RO water has little buffering capacity. It's pH is affected fast in both directions.
If we add H+ it will drop fast.
If we add carbonates/bicarbonates/buffers - it will rise fast.
But it can also go the other way fast too because there is little capacity for it not to. It's pH can swing like crazy - depending on what's acting upon it.
Not until we build up some buffering capacity ( alkalinity ) will the RO water resist changes in the pH.
Adding a small amount of buffer powder to the RO water, would indeed drive the pH up temporarily as you saw. But without alkalinity ( buffering CAPACITY ) then the pH will drop back down again ...... ESPECIALLY if you are aerating it.
It's the CO2 that combines with H2O that can form the H2CO3 carbonic acid. This happens all the time in both freshwater and saltwater. It depends on it's equalibrium at the time, and it shifts back and forth too.
If you added buffers to the fresh RO water - you would need to add enough for the water to have a capacity to resist future pH changes. This is what alkalinity is all about.
Unfortunately - we don't normaly bother with all of this in our top off water.
We add the buffer to the top off water - and after it's mixed real good - we immediately add it to our tankwater.
The tankwater "should" have some level of alkalinity already - and the buffer "adds" to this level ... increasing it over time.
The pH then resists changes ( drops ) with sufficient alkalinity.
What you're noticed in your buffered RO freshwater is just a natural process that goes on all the time in any water that is very pure, that has little if any buffering capacity, that has very low alkalinity.
Add your buffer to the RO, stir it up good, and add this to the tankwater for buffering.
See ya
crustytheclown
Member
Another thing about pH that most folks don't realize until it's too late is:
If you have an electrical catastrophe like I did a couple weeks ago, it will drop like mad, due to the current creating an acidic environment when left unchecked.
When I discovered what had happened to my UV Sterilizer, the very first thing I did was check pH and then do a big water change and add lots of buffer to run it back to the high side, before any effects were felt by the livestock. I also ran carbon for several days afterwards!
I have a good handheld pH probe that I test with every couple of days, but at times wish I had a good controller. Unfortunately, with what I experienced, a pH controller would have had both a positive and negative effect (mostly negative). The positive being that as soon as the drop was measured, the system would have been dosed to correct it. The bad is that if being done automatically, I may not have caught the source of the problem as quickly, as it would have been masked by corrective measures.
If you have an electrical catastrophe like I did a couple weeks ago, it will drop like mad, due to the current creating an acidic environment when left unchecked.
When I discovered what had happened to my UV Sterilizer, the very first thing I did was check pH and then do a big water change and add lots of buffer to run it back to the high side, before any effects were felt by the livestock. I also ran carbon for several days afterwards!
I have a good handheld pH probe that I test with every couple of days, but at times wish I had a good controller. Unfortunately, with what I experienced, a pH controller would have had both a positive and negative effect (mostly negative). The positive being that as soon as the drop was measured, the system would have been dosed to correct it. The bad is that if being done automatically, I may not have caught the source of the problem as quickly, as it would have been masked by corrective measures.