A ticked off teacher!

[underwoods]

I think what you are doing is right , I am in the Military myself and believe in honoring the ones we have lost , I have deployed and seen the things that happen in these countires . One thin I tell my family that it is great to come back home to the states after traveling overseas , You just dont jknow how good you got it until you have visited some of those 3rd world countires.

Most kids are probably following what their parents want them to do and not deciding for themselves, what has happened to our kids and country ? Religion , guess what our country was founded on it , and YOU still spend the money that says " In God We Trust" on it , WHats next , stopping money?
Thank You for letting me speak my two sence
:jumping: :happy:

"Except for Ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism and Communism, War Has Never Solved Anything"

 

[farmboy]

Underwoods--Thank you for your service!!
I think sometimes children do things for the wrong reasons. It has become fashionable to protest.
Our country protects the rights of protestors. Make sure it is for a GOOD reason.

 

[molamola]

It is not my intention to sound rude or offensive, just putting in my point of view.
I think that standing for the Pledge is not a method of forcing one’s own views onto a child. It is a polite gesture. When foreign dignitaries come to our country to visit, they most certainly stand for our Pledge and National Anthem, even if they don’t agree with the words, or our Nation's foreign policy. It is a sign of respect. There is a difference between being patriotic and being considerate.
Consideration is something that should be taught and enforced in any learning environment. It is not political correctness; it is a way to create structure and a sense of decency. This is a free country, no doubt about it, but when you send your child to school, that child becomes the school’s responsibility for the next 8 hours. If you don’t want your child to stand for the Pledge then by all means, find them a school that will allow it.
If I packed up and moved to another country one day, and was provided an opportunity to find a job and a home, you bet I’d at least stand up to show my gratitude. There is nothing wrong with expecting, enforcing, and teaching a child to be reverent. It can be done without agenda, without malice, and without humiliation.
Again, just my thoughts on the subject. Teachers deffinately don't get paid enough for all of their efforts; I know because I married one

 

[malounsbury]

Good point Mola. If they aren't standing for the pledge, which is something that is considerate, what are they doing during class? I'm sure most of them aren't doing very well in school, even if the pledge wasn't even part of the normal day.

 

[fishnerd]

Ok, I don't agree with Schubert, but how does one argue with someone who types several paragraphs on saltwaterfish.com without any punctuation or grammatical errors???
MODS- Please kick this guy with proper grammer off the boards. He is making it too easy to understand!!!

 

[schubert]

>How about any student not standing for the pledge can explain why in an essay? Maybe 10 pages or so. Sound good?
Dang. That would be the assignment of a lifetime...I WISH someone would tell me to do that...it'd be amazingly hilarious. Sort of like on Thursday when I took the AP Economics exam and made fun of the College Board in the free response section, talked about how Japan controls our economy through Pokemon and other stuff like that, and wrote some music too...good times.
I've never even heard ANYONE mention ANYTHING about participation in the pledge. Let's all remember that it is merely a ceremonial tradition, the principle of which probably does matter in some respects, but the physical participation in which is quite arbitrary. I like America sure, but do I feel the need to proclaim it publicly every day just because most people do? Very rarely does anyone feel the need to stand against it - it's just apathy, no one cares. Why should they? Because America is the greatest country in the world? Sure I guess, but let's not worry about petty traditions...it's a waste of time. AGAIN it's just a generation gap issue. You can not indoctrinate today's youth just because your generation has different ideals than us. Nonetheless I do not condone younger people deeming the practices of the older ones as pointless and ignorant. Live and let live in this situation.

 

[farmboy]

Shubert,
I'm glad to see the "bureaucratic assembly line" hasn't failed you. You seem very inteligent. I see your point about the generation gap, but it occurs to me that it can be attributed to age. I do not see things the same as when I was in my teens or even twenties. I am different. Life experience has changed me.
Respect is important wether one agrees or not. As I said, DON'T stand . . . or walk out . . . or burn a flag (I don't like that one). . .Protest. BUT have a good reason.
Andretti's students said they did't like Bush's foreign policy but couldn't elaborate. This country is much larger than one man, even a president.
BTW Bert, what kind of music/instrument do you play?

 

[itchy]

Okay as a parent of 2 young girls I can only say that I hope todays teachers and tomorrows for that matter help me instill good manners and independancy in my kids. Now realistically our children are at school more than they are at home with us. All I can do is teach them what is right and what is wrong and pray they use their heads and education that is giving to them. As far as the pledge goes why not educate your students on the importance of our independents and what the flag actually stands for. Ask them to write a supportive paper on their beliefs and then you as the teacher and the student can discuss their supportive issues. If they are valid issues then maybe you should consider supporting their ideas. I think that if we guide our children instead of just shutting their beliefs and ideas down we would get more response as opposed to them being argumentitive and defensive. I know you said you asked them why they didn't support Bush and they could not come up with a legitimate answer but now inform them that BUSH didn't make that flag or what it stands for. I also agree that god has nothing to do with this,and should not be enforced upon us....us meaning a whole. We all have our beliefs and what I belief doesn't mean that you believe. We spend a lot of time as parents teaching our children right, wrong and independency but ultimatley they come to their own conclusions as to how they feel!!! Good Luck

 

[molamola]

I disagree just a bit with a few things. The words, "Petty Tradition," are an oxymoron, in my opinion. We pass on these traditions because we feel they are important and not petty or of little value. Traditions define us as a culture; they carry on our history and our heritage. They state our beliefs and our foundations. Every culture has a way of expressing pride and loyalty. These ideals have merit and deserve to be passed on through the generations. This is by no means an indoctrination; it is our history and it is an education. In the simple act of reciting 31 words, you are stating a belief, acknowledging equality and unity, and accepting the principals that our Nation was founded on. When spoken in a classroom, or at a football game for that matter, we are showing our understanding and our respect at the same exact moment and it not only shows our respect for our Country, but for eachother. This is in no way a waste of time, or a petty tradition in my opinion. It is our job to pass on our history and keep our traditions in tact. :yes:
I didn't mean to write this much or argue with anyone. Shubert, I hope you keep working on music and composing. If you major in composition in College, promise you'll at least write a trio for piccolo, bagpipe, and accordian. :scared: Seriously though, it's really great that you are taking music, especially classical music so seriously:yes:

 

[andretti]

Hey Farmboy, good point about our country being much more important than even our president. I actually told my students almost exactly what you said. I told them that the flag and the pledge was here many years before Bush, and it will be here many years after as well. I suggested the get a group together and write an essay in regards to why they do not favor Bush and send it to the White House, but that would have required them to do work, and they do not want to work, they just want to do what is easy and sit on their lazy butts while we give thanks for our freedoms and rights. And to the student that felt school was too strict, "Teen" I belive was his/her name...just wait until you have to go to work everyday.

And the first time you mouth off to your boss, or you are excessively "tardy" see what happens then. When I spoke of problems with our society, I was referring to "parents." Unless you are a teacher, then you have no idea what I am talking about and it is impossible for you to relate. MORE THAN HALF of my students' "parents" never come to parent-teacher confrences. I send home a notice every week outlining what the plans and homework are for the week (for when students are absent) and I ask the "parents" to review it and sign it. At the end of each paragraph, I ask the "parents" to inital (just to see if they actually read my instructions) and wouldn't you know it, only 20-30% of the "parents" take the time to inital and sign it At the most, it is three very short paragraphs, (actually their so short, they don't even qualify as paragraphs) so it's not like I'm asking them to read a five page letter every week. I have eight students in first period who are at least 15-20 minutes late EVERYDAY because their "parents" just cannot/will not make it on time (7:50). I could go on and on but I'm getting tired of typing and you're probably getting tired of reading. :help: :help: :help: :help: :help: :help:

 

[xjayx]

What I love about this country is that no matter how concervative and patriotic a teacher, they don't have the power to MAKE me pay any repsect to any flag.
I can do it out of my own free will and be proud of it...
I'll be honest, I was that kid in highschool.

 

[wrassecal]

The odd thing about this thread is the "generation gap". A lot of the parents of high schoolers these days were the ones supposedly protesting the VietNam war, burning flags and dodging the draft and refusing to say the pledge of allegience. Our parents and teachers told us we had no respect for our country, society etc. We were told we should respect our troops. Heck, a lot of the teachers of high schoolers these days were supposedly threatening their professors and dodging the draft through college deferments in the VietNam era. There is nothing new here.

 

[beth]

I think the point here is being missed. The issure is not that the child did not want to stand for the pledge, but that the child's parents did not want it. The child's parents have that right and a teacher should not interfere with parental rights. Unless we are now willing to turn over parental right to others. This kind of thing only puts the child in the middle of a battle between opposing adults. Does it instill respect? No. It only makes the child feel ackward and maybe even resentful. It might be interesting to actually give the child the choice to stand or sit.
If I was a parent and given a lease reagarding my kid's work, I wouldn't sign it either. I did always go to all the parent-teacher conferences. Some teachers turn this into an opportunity to grip and others actually used it as an opportunity to plan for my child's education. I know teaching is hard. I spent my entire career in social work. If you think you don't see the bad side of humanity in that kind of work, think again. However, it doesn't make me think that everyone is an abuser, or that families are all hopeless or immoral. What I am saying is, if you think your students are all lazy, then you may just be too burned out to continue in this line of work.

 

[matttamar]

I am in the Navy, and definetly support what you are doing. In my opinion I think you should explain the sacrifices service men and women have to make every day, being away from family for six months to a year, or ultimately giving there lives for there country. But then again you might be wasting your time, these kids you speak of could never understand this, Im sure they come home every night and there parents are probably always home when they get there, they dont have to sit up all night wondering if there mother or father is ok. I dread the day when I will have to leave and go on deployment and leave my wife and seven month old twin girls home. Well I will end this now I could go on all day about this topic.

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by MATTTAMAR
I am in the Navy, and definetly support what you are doing.
Thanks to you and Underwoods and everyone else who serves or has served or DIED for this country, and for that flag...and in such sacrifices, gave people the very right to complain all they want about the very same country and flag that stands for it.
I think this is a unique American discussion. In many parts of the world there just plain isn't enough national identity or love of country - and in others we'd be dead to even utter it.

 

[darth tang]

While I love this country and our freedoms, we tend to complicate issues a little to much. The more complicated it is made, the longer and deeper the debate becomes, resulting in a solution never coming about. We as a society have become to complex in our thinking and views. While this is our greatest achievement, in my estimation it is also our biggest crutch and cause of division.
This topic for example has gone off in many different directions, yet it never should have. But everyone felt the need to cover every possible scenario and view on, and around the subject, thus causing no agreement as a whole on the solution for the problem.
The Pledge of Allegiance is just that, a pledge of Allegiance. Nothing more, nothing less. Yet, people become irritated when a person chooses not to participate in this. Why? Most children change their minds on their favorite toy, or clothes, or even Tv Shows at a drop of a hat. To force a child to make this pledge of allegiance is borderline communism if you think about it. It is blind loyalty at it's finest and very superficial. As it is meaningless to go through the actions, if the individual doesn't truly feel that way. In a sense we are having the children say and perform the pledge so that we as adults feel better. If that weren't the case, then you wouldn't get so mad about it.
The pledge of Allegiance in no way or form references those that have died for this country. So by not performing or saying it, are you disrespecting those brave men and women that have died serving this country?
Basically, the original poster is mad because they "feel" it is a disservice to not stand during this ceremony. As the person refusing to do so is disrespecting those that have died. Not the case.
Simplify.........The pledge of allegiance is exactly what it is called. Nothing about honoring troops or those that have died for this country. It is about supporting and upholding the ideals and rights of this country.
'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"
If a child or student isn't ready to pledge their allegiance should you force them to? I don't think so. I do, however, believe the pledge should be taught in school.
Little known fact, the man credited with writing this historical piece was a Christian Socialist....

 

[itchy]

The good thing about our country is the "right" to Freedom of speech. I posted above and those are my feelings towards this topic however WE still live in a free country. I tend to believe that a lot of the time we take advantage of our Freedom. I know I did as a teenager. Like I said above all we can do is give our youth the knowledge and hope they make the right decisions with what is giving to them. I have a 10 yr old now that believes she knows everything and I am quick to point out that indeed she has a lot left to learn. In the mean time I attend every parent/teacher conference to stay on top of who what and where my child is doing, learning and friendly with. This all makes a difference. I try not to force my beliefs on her but explain to her why I feel the way I do on certain topic!!! The other daughter is 20 months so we have some time to learn from mistakes with the first one before I screw up the second one. LMAO ( I hope you all know that is just a joke)
Thank you to all our servicemen and women out there for everything you do and all the sacrifices you and your families make.

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
Simplify.........The pledge of allegiance is exactly what it is called. Nothing about honoring troops or those that have died for this country. It is about supporting and upholding the ideals and rights of this country.
I understand your point of view, and can see logic on both sides of the issue.
For me, well, as many men and women died for supporting and upholding the ideals and rights of this country, I see little distinction between the two. Its not just a sentence, it is representative of something bigger.
Those in the service take great care in these little representative things that are overlooked by many of the rest of us. Saluting during the national anthem...a poem, a song. Not much in its words alone, but most still stand, take off their hats, a few put a hand over their hearts still. But a soldier or sailor salutes at attention. There are meanings in those words. Other things like folding the flag...precisely, in a specific way. If it touches the ground, it is a big thing. Not just a piece of cloth touching the ground, which, in fact it is. But it is not just the flag, it is representative of those ideals and rights, and those, IMO, who fought and died for it. Now I see people doing this all the time (just crumpling it up in a ball). When I went to school, putting up and taking down the flag was one of the most honored "chores" to do. Another was shouting "I PLEDGE!!!" at the start of the school day to lead the students in the pledge.
And I haven't been out of school all that long.
The pledge, the flag, the national anthem....they all fall in the same league for me. And they are much more than the words or fabric or even ideals. Protest all you want, but, IMO, you can protest and still be respectful. They are not mutually exclusive things. You can protest, and still appreciate what nation gave you the right to do it.

 

[schubert]

>I'm glad to see the "bureaucratic assembly line" hasn't failed you. You seem very inteligent. I see your point about the generation gap, but it occurs to me that it can be attributed to age. I do not see things the same as when I was in my teens or even twenties. I am different. Life experience has changed me.
Using average grammar and words doesn't make me a success of public education. Even if it was, it has nothing to do with true greatness. If people change as they grow, then let's not fret too much over this "newfound ignorance" that everyone attributes to EVERY new set of youth that grow up in this country.
>Respect is important wether one agrees or not. As I said, DON'T stand . . . or walk out . . . or burn a flag (I don't like that one). . .Protest. BUT have a good reason.
Andretti's students said they did't like Bush's foreign policy but couldn't elaborate. This country is much larger than one man, even a president.
I agree that most students simply regurgitate the biases of their parents, but this is just as senseless as regurgitating the biases that a person develops from their age group.
BTW Bert, what kind of music/instrument do you play?
Bert? It's Schubert with a "C", if you were wondering...

 

[schubert]

>I didn't mean to write this much or argue with anyone. Shubert, I hope you keep working on music and composing. If you major in composition in College, promise you'll at least write a trio for piccolo, bagpipe, and accordian. Seriously though, it's really great that you are taking music, especially classical music so seriously
How did anyone know that I wrote music? or played an instrument? Just wondering, I just don't remember telling anyone about that, but hey whatever. That's sounds like an awesome trio hahah. How about we add an e flat clarinet in there...I'm convinced that Satan plays this very instrument as a personal hobby....I hate it. Anyway, no I won't major in composition or probably anything to do with music, mostly because I'm just not that good at anything. Besides, I write fairly simple music...really old school...I can't connect with all of this new modernism where some composers are trying so desperately to make a name for themselves that they forget the purity and simple beauties of the art that they claim to love. No my music has no place in today's society, and it's not any good anyway...but hey whatever...I love it all the same, perhaps even more so because of my many shortcomings.