advice, im shocked a little...

[rcboone72]

So I am pretty upset, infact really.
So I woke up this morning, the house is very cold, the house thermostat was set wrong. First thing I do is run go my freshwater tank because the heater had broke yesterday, temp was 72 somehow, no dead fish. Over to the sw tank. Temp was 76, i usually have it 77-78. Two dead fish!!! One was my tb ocellaris clown which I liked very much, very vibrant coloring, very interesting dog like personality. Second was my royal gramma which was a recent purchase, it had just begin to come out and socialize. And yesterday they both just ate extremely well, and yesterday I put in a young clown for my old clown.
My question for you guys now is what killed my clown after months and months of good health?
A little story first, being a dummy I went to ***** to purchase fish, the gramma and a 6 line wrasse. Neither ate the first night but the gramma looked okay, wrasse had a large discolored spot on his side where his stripes quit and began again behind the spot, looked peculiar. Day two gramma ate, wrasse did not. Day three, wrasse ate now. Day four again he ate, day five wrasse was dead... ***** has no guarantee, and I know that fish couldn't have been healthy, I'm not that stupid. I've had fw tanks for years and my parameters were zero. The gramma day six came up with ich spots on the fins, ich is the killer of my gramma I suspect, he looked a pale color with this very opaque white mucus on spots of him in little short stretches, this was last night before he died I observed this, along with spots, he hid a lot and scratched a lot but ate fine like I said. I ordered meds but they will come today and he's dead.
My clown I found lodge head first, tail sticking out in the live rock, he still looked in good shape even being dead, her head was litarly stuck, I had to dismantle rocks to get her. She did sleep back there at the top not the bottom where she was stuck. She did two days ago have ich spots on top her head but then I changed water and no spots were on her yesterday while adding my new clown which was shipped to me live aquaria, and he/she is fine, was swimming all over when I was getting the other fish out. I need help on what to do with my tank. I was about to upgrade from this 20l to my 40 breeder, I even gave away over half of my freshwater fish away yesterday to start getting ready for the big move. Now I'm thinking of quitting altogether.
I would like advice or whatever you might want to say before I make another move with anything. Thanks

 

[rainbow grouper]

DO NOT give up we all go through a stage were we lose lots of fish leave the tank be for about a month to 8 weeks to let the ich die off and after that start with the fish(Other please verify the validity of this statement)

 

[btldreef]

Don't give up. We've all made mistakes, ALL OF US!
Sounds like ICH is the cause of all the fish dying, the temperature change probably just aided in the ich being able to effect the fish, but really wasn't much of a factor. A water change will not get rid of ich. A healthy fish can fight off ich for a little while, but if it becomes stressed for any reason, the ich is still present and will take advantage of the situation, which is probably what happened in your clowns case.
My suggestions are to set up a QT tank for all future fish, so that you can observe them, and treat if necessary, without infecting your main tank.
Since your main tank has now had ich introduced, it's going to need to remain fishless for 8 weeks. During this time, look into setting up a quarantine tank.
Since you're about to upgrade, I'd suggest still doing it. The upgrade is going to need to do a small cycle and resettle itself so you really shouldn't be adding fish during this time anyways. Upgrade to the 40 breeder, they're great reef tanks, and keep the 20L as a QT tank for new fish. And STOP buying fish from *****, especially without a QT setup.

 

[rcboone72]

Okay. I will have to be ordering all of my fish online which is fine with me. Also, after I had started my tank all up is when I realized I should have a QT tank, but to be honest I never thought I would go further then a clown and an anemene, I never made it to the corals and don't plan to for a long while. I still have the baby clown in the tank that I ordered from live aquaria. It looks good. I also got my ich med in and went ahead and used it in the tank, it is chealated copper treatment and all I have is the fish, and it said it would be safe for hermit crabs so I went with it. I plan to put a sump on the 40b, using a 20l tank. I also was planning on using the previous rock from my small display in my new display but it looks like I won't untill I am sure ich is gone. Pretty much I'm starting the 40b new. I use dry rock and then seed it with some live rock on my 20l. I have a large piece of dry left that wouldn't for and then ill get some new sand and put that in the 40b and let the cycle start. Will that copper be an issue in month or so when I go to put the old sand in rock in the new display, as in does it soak into the rock and then leach into my new water?
In the mean time I need to get another tank so I can have a sump and QT, and drill my 40b for the sump plumbing so I don't have to empty the tank and do it when I'm ready after it is stocked. Try it over again.

 

[meowzer]

I can tell you from MUCH experience that the fish that SWF.com sells are excellent specimens

 

[gemmy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by meowzer http:///t/388620/advice-im-shocked-a-little#post_3428345
I can tell you from MUCH experience that the fish that SWF.com sells are excellent specimens
Me too!! They also have great customer service and a 15 day guarantee.

 

[flower]

Hi, even from SWF.com still use a QT

 

[clown-keeper99]

I lost 9 fish this january and I'm still going strong
just remember to hurry up and wait

 

[rcboone72]

Well I found the baby clown dead tonight after work. So all thats left are the two crabs and the ich. Is there gonna be a problem with the ich staying attached to my piece of live rock I have been using to seed dry rock, I am using some chelated copper treatment for the next month while I get the 40b tank ready. Hopefully there won't be any problems.

 

[btldreef]

There are no treatments for ich that are reef or invert safe, despite what the bottle or salesman in the store might say. They're either ineffective in treating the parasite, or will kill inverts and leave your live rock and sand full of copper and may kill the live bacteria as well. Copper treated tanks can't be used again for inverts, nor can the live rock you treated in this tank. I know you were planning on using this tank as the sump for the upgrade, but now that it has copper in it, I really don't recommend it. Use this tank as a Quarantine tank, since you should be qt'ing ALL fish regardless of where you buy them from. I also don't recommend using the rock in this tank now that it too has been exposed to copper.
Yes, it is possible to transfer ich on live rock. It's much more common for ich to be transferred due to a sick fish, but ich can also be transferred on coral, rock, inverts, even water.
I really suggest starting from scratch except for mechanical equipment on your new setup. Soak all mechanical equipment in a white vinegar and water solution and then rinse thoroughly before using.

 

[rcboone72]

Okay, what if I soak my dry rock in a vinegar solution, will that do any good because its about $50 in dry rock, if not I will do it right then and restart, I will ne using different filters as well so even that won't be a problem. My crabs in there now are fine so the med must be ineffective then, my copper test shows 1ppm copper. What does this reading indicate to a more advanced sw aquarist? How is it that when a person buys live rock from a online reputable dealer that it does not transfer ich to the display tank? Or does it? Or is it that they have left it without a host and it died before they sell it?

 

[btldreef]

Okay, this is going to sound a little harsh, but you have A LOT of research to do before you start your next tank.
No, your rock can't be used now that it's been treated with copper, even soaking it isn't going to work.
When you buy live rock online, by the time it gets to you, there's a big die off that occurs and the rock really should be cured, at least for a few days. Live rock tanks usually don't usually have fish in them and the curing process usually kills the ich parasite.

 

[rcboone72]

I know about the Live rock curing process, thats why I went with dry rock and then a small piece or coraline encrusted rock. I know a lot about several aspects of sw tanks. I have done lots of research, I had it for 6 months with no problems then this ich came along and I never researched about possible infections and the does and don'ts of treatment. I know nothing about copper and the animals, I just read the bottle. I was in a panick to save my fish. I watched several YouTube videos on treatments, and a QT tank was always a highlight and it looks like my laziness in that area was my downfall. But I have done lots of research. Hours and hours even down to what the best filter sump refugium idea is. I had it all planned out, skimmer, fish that would be compatible in my tank. I just neglected the part of what if I get an infection. My next problem is budget, when I started my tank things were okay, half way through the process I had a large financial setback on another area which impacted what was gonna be a mini reef build that never came to be done or done correctly.

 

[clown-keeper99]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCBOONE72 http:///t/388620/advice-im-shocked-a-little#post_3429140
I know about the Live rock curing process, thats why I went with dry rock and then a small piece or coraline encrusted rock. I know a lot about several aspects of sw tanks. I have done lots of research, I had it for 6 months with no problems then this ich came along and I never researched about possible infections and the does and don'ts of treatment. I know nothing about copper and the animals, I just read the bottle. I was in a panick to save my fish. I watched several YouTube videos on treatments, and a QT tank was always a highlight and it looks like my laziness in that area was my downfall. But I have done lots of research. Hours and hours even down to what the best filter sump refugium idea is. I had it all planned out, skimmer, fish that would be compatible in my tank. I just neglected the part of what if I get an infection. My next problem is budget, when I started my tank things were okay, half way through the process I had a large financial setback on another area which impacted what was gonna be a mini reef build that never came to be done or done correctly.
sounds to me like you are digging yourself out of a hole that you dug yourself into
if you can't finacianaly do it right the first time then why risk it?
if you waited to do thing right then you wouldn't be in this mess
Sorry if I'm coming down hard but its just like BTLDreef said you have a lot of reserch to do before you start your next tank

 

[rcboone72]

Like I said, when I started I had enough money to do it, but about a month in when I was ready to stock the tank and start putting this and that in there I ran out of money. It was my fault, mostly because I was lazy and did not do a QT, but I'm not stupid, or totally oblivious to fish keeping, and I dang sure have done research, and you may be right, I need some more probly. I've had a heavy loaded FW tank for a long while and things such as bio load and water parameter and testing and water change and buffering to meet the need of my fish is nothing new to me. However there are new things I have learned and will still need to learn. No matter who you are you can't go into something and do it perfect, like the first few posters mentioned unless you have unlimited funds and time. I did mess up, its so little as letting a fish who was not quarantine infect my tank and me not having the resources to act fast enough nor the knowledge of SW parasite and disease. I'm not a dumb ten year old kid who said that fish is cool I want it and throws it in a bowl and dumps half a container of food in it. (Used to be when I was 10, Haha). My tank would still be doing fantastic if I would not have added an infected fish into the tank or if I could have acted in a manner in which to save my fish. I was just simply not prepared for such an infection. I would not have had the success I had before adding new fish off without all the research I did do. I am not taking ur 'bashing' and just disregarding it, I understand you are right, I should have went farther in my research of SW infections and treatments. I have a little now on ich for the future, now I need to see what other things are out there. I just simply don't see what makes you guys believe I should not have a tank because lack of research, I just had ich... I know more then you think I guess and there is no way for you to know that by what my previous posts read, I did sound new by posting that I killed my fish but I assure you I can successfully have a beautiful tank, hopefully soon again. My 20l was looking good, and thats why I was shocked when it just transformed into hell almost over night.

 

[rcboone72]

Oh, and to just clarify, am appreciative that you commented and used essentially constructive criticism. I'm not trying to have what you say just blow over mme even though I don't like it

 

[btldreef]

I was not trying to say you shouldn't have a tank, nor was I implying the words that Clown-Keeper just tried to put in my mouth. Budget has nothing to do with this and to tell you that you don't have the financial means is ridiculous and an insult. I also wasn't trying to imply you're an idiot. I just think that you need to do some more research into disease and quarantining as well as what should be done for an upgrade. What threw up a little red flag for me was your use of copper and not knowing what to do with the rock now that it's been treated with copper, as well as live rock that is shipped.
Bottom line, we all make mistakes. There are certain things that are wrong to do in this hobby, but there definitely is no one set right way. I don't recommend using anything that has now been treated with copper on your new setup, as it could leach into the new system and cause issues. That being said, there are some of us that have used copper treated tanks with luck (my 155 was copper treated), but since a 20 gallon is a fairly inexpensive tank and you don't have anything else for a quarantine tank, I wouldn't risk it.

 

[btldreef]

sounds to me like you are digging yourself out of a hole that you dug yourself into
if you can't finacianaly do it right the first time then why risk it?
if you waited to do thing right then you wouldn't be in this mess
Sorry if I'm coming down hard but its just like BTLDreef said you have a lot of reserch to do before you start your next tank
Woah! Financial issues happen. To attack someone for a financial mishap is completely inappropriate. Considering that you want to work in your local fish store, and based on many of your previous posts, I'm going to assume you're young and don't have a true grasp of financial obligations and mishaps in the real world. I also suggest that if you're going to be working with customers in this hobby, or any discipline, you learn a better way of explaining things and treating your customers with some respect.

 

[clown-keeper99]

Sorry about that but I to have Financial obligations (drivers ed., Fish, car payments, ect.) with very little parental help
when it comes to my fish tank I always try to do thing right and wait until I can, not matter how much I want it
yes but as rainbow grouper had said good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment
I guess I just went through a "I'm a teenager and I know everything" moment when I posted that but I meant it with no disrespect
But it is still going to cost him more in the long run for trying to save money
I do know how it feels to lose a tank load of fish and I hope the for the best with him
sorry for my comments

 

[rcboone72]

It's fine, I understand doing it all right the first time is key to better success overall. I understand. I'm going to try to do it better this time.