Afghanistan, your opinion...

V

vinnyraptor

Guest
do we send more troops? and if so what is their objective/stategy? as most of you know i'm an Obama guy and i was for sending more troops there and into the mountains of Paksitan with the objectve of wiping out the Taliban or severely crippling them.
now i say no, unless were gonna burn every poppy and pot field in the region and cripple them financially whats the point? i saw a news clip last night that said back in the 50's our military dug a canal in Afghanistan and this canal now feeds the farms that produce 80% of the worlds herion. these crops are Taliban cash registers. how can we justify sending more of our kids over there to fight a rugged ground battle but not destroy their real resource?
its not like i didn't know about the poppy, and the warlords, but this is insane. there are stories of marines actually guarding certain fields that are owned by warlords who are currently unfriendly to the Taliban.
then there is the history, it isnt called the graveyard of empires for nothing. from Rome to Russia nobody could conquer this land and people. Gengis Khan stood away, lol. look at a map when Khan ruled, its amazing. look at the height of Rome. it'll make Iraq look like a walk in the park and Vietnam a fond memory.
i dont want to hear your opinions on the President good or bad, i just wanna hear from those who understand the gravity of the situation and what they would do.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/3153433
do we send more troops? and if so what is their objective/stategy? as most of you know i'm an Obama guy and i was for sending more troops there and into the mountains of Paksitan with the objectve of wiping out the Taliban or severely crippling them.
now i say no, unless were gonna burn every poppy and pot field in the region and cripple them financially whats the point? i saw a news clip last night that said back in the 50's our military dug a canal in Afghanistan and this canal now feeds the farms that produce 80% of the worlds herion. these crops are Taliban cash registers. how can we justify sending more of our kids over there to fight a rugged ground battle but not destroy their real resource?
its not like i didn't know about the poppy, and the warlords, but this is insane. there are stories of marines actually guarding certain fields that are owned by warlords who are currently unfriendly to the Taliban.
then there is the history, it isnt called the graveyard of empires for nothing. from Rome to Russia nobody could conquer this land and people. Gengis Khan stood away, lol. look at a map when Khan ruled, its amazing. look at the height of Rome. it'll make Iraq look like a walk in the park and Vietnam a fond memory.
i dont want to hear your opinions on the President good or bad, i just wanna hear from those who understand the gravity of the situation and what they would do.
I pretty much agree with Yoda, Either do or do not, there is no try. If you put a guy in to implement a policy you said you agree with you give him what he asks for.
 
V

vinnyraptor

Guest
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3153441
I pretty much agree with Yoda, Either do or do not, there is no try. If you put a guy in to implement a policy you said you agree with you give him what he asks for.
so give the general 60,000 troops and go into the mountains and crush them while changing the government and winning over the population. what about the dope?
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/3153458
so give the general 60,000 troops and go into the mountains and crush them while changing the government and winning over the population. what about the dope?
I am talking about what Obama should do. It's his call. My son is most likely going to be back over there next year and I don't want them trying the halfass it.
If I was running things I am not so sure I wouldn't work out a deal with Pakistan to secretly help them fight the taliban there and pull back in Afghanistan so the taliban will retreat there.
As bad as it is to have the taliban in Afghanistan it would be worse to have them destabilize a nuclear power.
 
fishtaco

fishtaco

Active Member
Seems like no matter what we do, soon as we leave they will go back to herding goats and growing poppies in areas controlled by the guy with the most hired guns. I still don't understand why they did not put everything they had a the very beginning to close the border between the two countries. This trying to fight a war in a country where not everyone is a bad guy but everyone hates you is a no-win situation and wow, won't the world be a happy place if the Taliban in Pakistan manage to overthrow the government and gain control of the nuclear weapons. I hope someone on our sides knows exactly where they are and has a B-2 fueled up on stand-by and loaded up for the mission 24/7 in case that happens. I think we could have just conducted an air war and been almost as effective at this point in time.
Fishtaco
 
slf125

slf125

Member
Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/3153433
do we send more troops? and if so what is their objective/stategy? as most of you know i'm an Obama guy and i was for sending more troops there and into the mountains of Paksitan with the objectve of wiping out the Taliban or severely crippling them.
now i say no, unless were gonna burn every poppy and pot field in the region and cripple them financially whats the point? i saw a news clip last night that said back in the 50's our military dug a canal in Afghanistan and this canal now feeds the farms that produce 80% of the worlds herion. these crops are Taliban cash registers. how can we justify sending more of our kids over there to fight a rugged ground battle but not destroy their real resource?
its not like i didn't know about the poppy, and the warlords, but this is insane. there are stories of marines actually guarding certain fields that are owned by warlords who are currently unfriendly to the Taliban.
then there is the history, it isnt called the graveyard of empires for nothing. from Rome to Russia nobody could conquer this land and people. Gengis Khan stood away, lol. look at a map when Khan ruled, its amazing. look at the height of Rome. it'll make Iraq look like a walk in the park and Vietnam a fond memory.
i dont want to hear your opinions on the President good or bad, i just wanna hear from those who understand the gravity of the situation and what they would do.
Graveyard of Empires? What Empires? Genghis Khan did conquer Persia, I believe. Rome was shut down by their debt and encroaching barbarians. Napoleon sent troops into Russia and that was the end of his conquerings. Afghanistan never affected Hitler, as far as I know. Even when Russia attacked them, they were going to be crushed if not for our help and weapons. Not that I don't agree with you that this is an extremely hard battle to win, I just never quite... undersood that nickname. Then again, I may be extremely wrong and have no idea what im talking about.
Regardless, I agree with ReefRaff, Do or do not, there is no try. Don't halfass it obama!
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member

It is a civil war and we need to stay out of it. This is another Viet Nom (spelling?) They have been fighting since 1947...this time. All we are doing is killing our young men. We have, and will accomplish nothing by being over there now, or in the future.
The Taliban is in power because U.S. set them in that seat thinking it would be better...it got worse. Get rid of the Taliban and another stupid group will just take power for us to fight. This is a constant pattern with these people.
 
slf125

slf125

Member
The only ones that come to mind are Britains failed attempts to control them. Persia not bothering with it because there wasn't really anything there but mountains at the time. And ALexanders greatest deferat was handed to him in afghanistan, although im not entirely sure that was just the Afghans. Either way, i don't mean to get off topic.
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
Afghanistan is a nasty mess. We are committed there and the local population are on the side of the highest bidder. There is nothing there to protect, the only thing of value to us is to keep bad folks from turning it into another giant terrorist training camp. While I am all for freeing people and ending the barbarous treatment of women and girls, I think we may be better served pulling out and launching air and cruise missile strikes where they pop up when we're gone. It would have a secondary benefit of taking pressure off Pakistan, as well. I would love to win, but I doubt we can do much more than occupy until our strategic needs have been served.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
To accurately give an answer to the question proposed, One must understand how we have arrived at where we are.
First off, Pakistan supported and aided the Taliban for many years. After 9/11 they "withdrew" their support. However this nuclear power supported this organization for well over a decade. Keep this in mind. We will come back to it later.
In the beginning of this war we were using "shock and awe". Basically huge bombing runs..to demoralize and pound the enemy. This ws working, but it was done in conjunction with the northern alliance army. Be used shock and awe, and the northern lliance would come in an sweep and clear.
The Taliban had no answer for this tactic. It WAS effective. The problem was to many people forget this is a war and started crying and screaming about civilian casualties, the creation of refugees and such. During this time what was left of the taliban fled to the south and into pakistan as well.
Now, due to soft-hearted idealists we stop shock and awe. We change tactics and go into a ground warfare. This would have been fine, however Since Pakistan is a sovereign nation we needed permission to enter pakistan to finish them off. However recently pakistan has made a show of ysing their army to rebuff the taliban..however it was to little to late in my opinion. The taliban had received sucor and aid while regrouping in Pakistan already. I also raised my eyebrow when the pakistani ISI were implecated in a few terrorist activities in 2008. These action show there are still major elements withing the government that support and aid these guys.
So the removal of "shock and awe" to the use of ground forces, the actions of pakistan and their intelligence community, and the landscpe of the region are the reason we are now "stuck" in a mess.
Do we finish the job? Hell yes. Because not to do so shows we do not care about 3000 u.s. citizens that were brutally killed. It shows we have no heart in this country. we have become weak and will no longer face adversity. If we pull out of afghanistan and do not win the war decisively we will effectively give up our seat at the head of the world table. We will show we are spineless cowards and weak. And the taliban and al qaeda organization will exploit this. Think about it...how many people bandwagon jump when a football team is winning or does win the super bowl? The same thing will occur for the taliban and Al Qaeda....they will shown they can bring the might lion of the U.S. to our knees and send us packing in defeat. How many extremists and borderline extremists do you think will jump on their bandwagon after that?
So in short, give the general what he needs....ignore pakistan as a sovereign nation and hunt down the taliban bases in the pakistani mountains. For if the taliban gains control of the pakistani government, they have nuclear resources suddenly at their disposal.
And for god sakes, go back to the pounding of "shock and awe" if we need to....
 
ironeagle2006

ironeagle2006

Active Member
My idea is real simple tell the Generals that the LEASH IS OFF. Find them Hunt them down and KILL THEM. I do not care how you do it JUST GET IT DONE. Using a Moab to kill 10 terrorists is perfectly fine by me. Also the ROE is this if they are Taliban they are fair game even if they are hiding in a Mosque or any other place. Also the Us Soldier that kills Osama Bin Laden gets 20 Million Tax Free. You Bring him back alive it is 50 million tax free.
 
V

vinnyraptor

Guest
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3153475
I am talking about what Obama should do. It's his call. My son is most likely going to be back over there next year and I don't want them trying the halfass it.
If I was running things I am not so sure I wouldn't work out a deal with Pakistan to secretly help them fight the taliban there and pull back in Afghanistan so the taliban will retreat there.
As bad as it is to have the taliban in Afghanistan it would be worse to have them destabilize a nuclear power.
i hope your son doesn't get sent back there because i hope were outa there reef! i agree that we either ramp up or pull out there should be no half assing in war. but we know we have half assed it before like in Vietnam.
the taliban is incapable of overthowing the Pakistani government. you and i both know that. thats a scare tactic and propaganda to gain public support. the Pakistani people want no part of there law (Sherea?, mispelled im sure). the Taliban said they want one thing, to reinstate this law in Afghanistan.
i say cut off there drug money and help the Afghani farmers grow something else. build schools and hospitals, and gain the peoples support. help them prosper a little and show them a 21st century lifestyle. they'll quickly reject the Taliban and there primative ways. it will cost far less than an ongoing campaign and will save lives on both sides. that and constant bombing of there mountain hide outs will get the job done. it will take a three headed stategy, cut off there money supply, gain the trust of the people, and bomb the s H!t out of them!
my fisrt choice is to get out and use the cia and intel to find them world wide and do what needs to be done...
 
V

vinnyraptor

Guest
Originally Posted by SLF125
http:///forum/post/3153541
Graveyard of Empires? What Empires? Genghis Khan did conquer Persia, I believe. Rome was shut down by their debt and encroaching barbarians. Napoleon sent troops into Russia and that was the end of his conquerings. Afghanistan never affected Hitler, as far as I know. Even when Russia attacked them, they were going to be crushed if not for our help and weapons. Not that I don't agree with you that this is an extremely hard battle to win, I just never quite... undersood that nickname. Then again, I may be extremely wrong and have no idea what im talking about.
Regardless, I agree with ReefRaff, Do or do not, there is no try. Don't halfass it obama!
the first map is of the Mongol empire, the second is of Asia and the Middle East.

 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/3154091
i hope your son doesn't get sent back there because i hope were outa there reef! i agree that we either ramp up or pull out there should be no half assing in war. but we know we have half assed it before like in Vietnam.
the taliban is incapable of overthowing the Pakistani government. you and i both know that. thats a scare tactic and propaganda to gain public support. the Pakistani people want no part of there law (Sherea?, mispelled im sure). the Taliban said they want one thing, to reinstate this law in Afghanistan.
i say cut off there drug money and help the Afghani farmers grow something else. build schools and hospitals, and gain the peoples support. help them prosper a little and show them a 21st century lifestyle. they'll quickly reject the Taliban and there primative ways. it will cost far less than an ongoing campaign and will save lives on both sides. that and constant bombing of there mountain hide outs will get the job done. it will take a three headed stategy, cut off there money supply, gain the trust of the people, and bomb the s H!t out of them!
my fisrt choice is to get out and use the cia and intel to find them world wide and do what needs to be done...
What the Taliban can do is destabilize the Pakistan government to the point it collapses and a more fundamentalist government will take control. There would be elements of the taliban included in that and is is very possible for that to happen. The Taliban already has a lot of support in certain regions of the country.
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
I could not agree more. My fear is that , like the easily winnable Vietnam conflict, we will beat them and the politicians will grab defeat out of the mouth of victory. I am an emotional guy. Even though I was 7 in 1975, the bitterness of 58000+ dead and missing American boys makes me weep. And for what? They gave their lives for freedom only to be dishonored by the actions of the cowards in Washington. That is my fear for what is happening in Afghanistan. How many may have to die before candy---- politicians get nervous and give up, making their sacrifice pointless. I don't want to see it again. Finish it or get out now.
(I copied the wrong quote-this is a response to Darthtang.)
 
zman1

zman1

Active Member
Agent orange the poppy fields..... so long as we aren't having troops there- we don'y need and more VET disabilites from AO....
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/3155790
Agent orange the poppy fields..... so long as we aren't having troops there- we don'y need and more VET disabilites from AO....
I think they need to develop some kind of herbicide that could genetically alter the poppies so they wont produce the opiates any more. Napalm and agent orange in the meantime. Of course the ACLU would probably argue we are violating the rights of the poor downtrodden taliban for doing it.
 
uneverno

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3153900
We did? When?Links, story, history lesson.....anything please to support this.
I'm not exactly with Flower on the statement, but we did have an indirect hand in setting the Taliban up. When the Soviets withdrew in '89, so did we, leaving the power vacuum that the Taliban eventually filled.
In the absence of Soviet military control and CIA funds, The Mujahideen/Northern Alliance (fuzzy distinction at best as allegiances were (and still are) constantly shifting) and the Taliban all used opium to fund their civil war.
Part of what needs to be remembered here though, is that the Taliban never controlled the whole country. They only had total control over the south and strips along the eastern and western borders. The center of the country was loosely controlled by them and the northern border region along Pakistan and Tajikistan was firmly in the hands of the Northern Alliance (aka warlords).
This is important in that, while not entirely opposed to it, (and for whatever else they are) it was the Taliban that eventually substantially reduced opium production in the territories they controlled. These are the areas now where, since their ouster, opium production has increased most substantially.
Disclaimer: I am in no way a supporter of the Taliban, nor am I claiming that the increase in opium production is somehow ours or the UN coalition's fault. I'm simply recounting history '89 to date.
 
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