Am I maxed out?

[danedodger]

Go ahead and dispute, Fixed! You certainly did it politely enough and it's just opinions. I love a good debate but fights have me running for cover!

I'm sure that fish have stress to some degree day in and day out but I study my fish both at home and at work and can tell when one is too stressed in any number of ways. I don't feel I'm anthropomorphising. Take chameleons, for example. I once worked for an awful petshop and they insisted on keeping chameleons in with juvenile iguanas. For anyone who doesn't know chameleons are actually very delicate reptiles that get stressed by too much handling or things moving around too much while juvie iguanas dash and dart around sometimes like little crackheads! These chameleons invariably didn't behave as a normal, relaxed specimin would. They would stay right in one lower corner, pitch black, just look generally miserable, and die. The owner finally quit getting them in saying that they were too hard to keep. They're not too hard to keep if you do it right!
We can look at how a fish behaves in the wild and make some educated predictions about what conditions need to be met in order for them to be happy and healthy in our home tanks. And it seems to me that most often these predictions are proven true when you compare the behaviors and survival of those kept "properly" and the ones kept otherwise.

 

[darth tang]

Originally Posted by Fixed
I'm not disputing what you're saying, but do we really know that fish are "stressed" from being around too many others, or from living in a tank 4 feet long instead of 7 feet? Has anyone really done a scientific study on whether a fish would live 30 years or 50 years, based upon its tank and tank mates? Sometimes it seems that might be engaging in a good deal of anthropomorphism, rather than scientific fact. Too often we might project how we might feel upon our fish, which may not be accurate. I'm not saying be inhumane, but what constitutes being inhumane might be subject to a great deal of debate, largely centered around unproven facts.
In fact many marine biologist have done studies on this. Now the studys aren't always spot on. There will be the RARE exception. You proposed question isn't exactly a good one though. The fish are live creatures with a brain. They have the ability to feel stress. They are just like you dog or cat. Maybe not as intelligent but they still can react to what they deem a harmful environment. Your question implies no creatures other than Humans can feel stressed. If that were the case, then we wouldn't have laws about animal cruelty. You could beat your animal as essentially it doesn't "feel" anything. You could force your dog to live in a closet with it's own feces. Does this affect how a dog behaves? Of course....when you take a large fish and place them in a very small environment essentially you are treating them like the dog in the closet. They may live through it, but is it Healthy?

 

[fixed]

I don't intend to imply anything, as I really don't know. My primary point is whether there really is scientific support for what many of us say here, things like "so many inches of fish per gallon" and "tangs need at least 70 gallons" etc.
I know absolutely for certain the sometimes fish stress. You should have seen my small clown when I added a 4 inch maroon. The little one was totally wigged out. Things settled down and all is ok now, but he certainly appeared to be stressed. I can easily understand bad water conditions causing stress, too. However, it's the more subtle points that I truly wonder about, when we're discussing nuances of load and swimming room.
Also, it may be foreseeable that fish could stress at times but easily adapt to conditions, isn't it? Does that mean the fish is chronically stressed, or that it learns to live with it's environment without stress? All I'm saying is that I don't have a clue, and I'd love to see some good studies on the subject.
Regardless, I try to follow the common guidelines people discuss here. If nothing else, a consensus is most likely a good way to go, even if unscientific.

 

[danedodger]

However, it's the more subtle points that I truly wonder about, when we're discussing nuances of load and swimming room.
I hear ya, Fixed. I think it's like I often say, these measurements and "rules" we toss around on the boards should be considered very crude, rule of thumb starting points. After that starting point there's a lot more to consider.
Also, it may be foreseeable that fish could stress at times but easily adapt to conditions, isn't it? Does that mean the fish is chronically stressed, or that it learns to live with it's environment without stress? All I'm saying is that I don't have a clue, and I'd love to see some good studies on the subject.
It would make for a really interesting study! My best answer to those two questions right now would be that it would greatly depend on a large number of variables. I mean in general I'd say that a damsel has a much better chance of adapting to stressful conditions than a hippo tang but it also depends on what the stressor is, the health of the fish, the individual personality of the fish, etc.

 

[darth tang]

You could run your own study right here. This is all you would need to do. Ask the following questions of the fellow posters.
Have you ever owned a tang. How big of a tank was it in. What kind. How long has it lived or did it live. What killed it if known. what kind of tang?
You could formulate a pretty good scientific study based off the information given and have a pretty good idea of the tang's needs for tank size.

 

[fixed]

Incidentally, does everyone agree that bigger is always better (for water quality and the fish)? Is it normal to always want a bigger tank?

 

[darth tang]

Yes, for the most part......with seahorses I might disagree....there will be a point where size of tank is to big to adequently feed all.......but that may the rare case and just my opinion.

 

[danedodger]

All things being equal I think it's only logical that for water quality a larger tank is going to be better and it seems like that's been upheld in practice. As for the fish it also seems that if the first is true then bigger would be better for the fish as well.
Some people, though, enjoy the challenges of going smaller like nano tanks.

 

[fixed]

When going bigger, is tank length the primary factor, as opposed to front/back or height dimensions? In terms of fish stress/room to swim, that is.

 

[darth tang]

depends on the species, seahorse height is the key, tangs swimming length, eels and such just water volume...it all depends.

 

[danedodger]

Yep, what Darth said

But putting aside what Darth said I think the reason many people want a bigger tank to be longer/wider rather than taller is that, again all things being equal, you can put more fish into a longer/wider tank than a taller one because the surface area of the water is greater.

 

[darth tang]

Touching on Dane's point..by ultimately going longer you can have a wider variety of fish, which is what many go for.

 

[jcrim]

Interesting debate. We would all agree that there are absolutes. Such as a clown trigger should not be in a 12 gallon (sound familiar). A shark should not be in a 60 gallon. These issues have come up on these boards. There is really no intelligent debate on these issues.
The debate comes up in the grey areas... can a coral cat be in a 125?... can a yellow tang be in a 50? I do agree with Fixed that with the borderline issues, the answer is not as absolute. I think those issues depend on several factors, such as filtration, tankmates and the individual stress levels among specific fish.
Generally in these posts people try to err on the side of caution. With our own tanks, though, we like to have as much life as possible. Personally, I don't condemn people who work in these grey areas. I don't find this to be irresponsible. Do any of us know how stressed a fish is in a 50 gallon as opposed to a 60 gallon or 75 gallon when that fish came from the ocean. We act like having a tang in a 75 or a 90 is sooo humane but a tank with 6" less of width is sooo cruel. Just a thought.

 

[fixed]

Yes, and for all we know, a fish in captivity, even in a smaller tank, might feel a whole lot less stressed than in the wild. No worries about being gobbled up, storm currents -- mainly being gobbled up. Pure conjecture, but I'd think at least a possibility.

 

[jcrim]

I just think that people tend to SPECULATE on the emotional status of fish. For me I think in simpler terms... if you keep your fish alive, you're doing ok.

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by Fixed
My primary point is whether there really is scientific support for what many of us say here, things like "so many inches of fish per gallon" and "tangs need at least 70 gallons" etc.
Not that I know of. My opinion is strictly based on anecdotal evidence. I've seen a lot of tanks, I've seen a lot of Tangs, and I've seen a lot of problems. In my experience I have seen lots of Tangs in smaller tanks. Other than the 10 year old Sailfin you mentioned I have never seen nor heard of an older Tang that grew up in a smaller tank. It's just anecdotal evidence but it's a pretty strong correlation, probably around 1000 to 1.
I'll start an "unscientific" poll and see what comes up. It won't be proof but it will be more evidence either for or against..

 

[ophiura]

I agree...no Blue Linckia in that size tank. Almost certain to die of starvation. PLEASE don't get one. And I also agree that in general the tank is already maximally stocked.
I would also like to take a moment to commend the participants of this thread. This is a mature, informative discussion on a normally very heated issue!

 

[batman1820]

I know everyone is telling you that it is overstocked, and the truth is:
It most definitely is.
But i know many peoople will buy another fish anyway just cause they cant resist soo... get a niger trigger... love those. but they get kinda big so only get one if you have a home for it when it gets too big.
And i don't even think luvtang even reads this anymore since he/she hasnt posted in a while.

 

[danedodger]

The debate comes up in the grey areas... can a coral cat be in a 125?... can a yellow tang be in a 50? I do agree with Fixed that with the borderline issues, the answer is not as absolute. I think those issues depend on several factors, such as filtration, tankmates and the individual stress levels among specific fish.
I do agree with that, jcrim! There are definitely "grey areas" in this hobby. For example, I've seen several different "rules" for stocking tanks, anywhere from 1" of fish per 3 gallons on up to 1" per 10 gallons. All I can say is definitely true (barring exceptions and variables) is that one should be safer then the other but there DOES come a point where you have to ask yourself if you're not being overly cautious. That's when you have to take variables into account like you mentioned. I think Fenner said it best (I think it was him and paraphrasing VERY roughly) when he said that marine aquariums are part science, part art, and part just plain ole voodoo!
Yes, and for all we know, a fish in captivity, even in a smaller tank, might feel a whole lot less stressed than in the wild.
I seriously tend to doubt it though just based on my own studies of animals of all sorts. When an animal is born in the wild it learns the "rules" early on, it knows when it's safe, when it's not, the best places to run... There probably are times of stress such as when a predator comes around but then take that same animal and put it in a whole new world with completely different variables such as no where to get away, constantly seeing, to them, HUGE shapes always moving around, etc.! I believe that the fish in our tanks are almost certainly under more stress. It's absolutely amazing to me when you think about all of it that our fish learn to accept us as much as they do!
I just think that people tend to SPECULATE on the emotional status of fish. For me I think in simpler terms... if you keep your fish alive, you're doing ok.
I do disagree with ya on that one, though! Take yesterday at work for an example. The minute I came in and looked at my tanks from a distance I could tell something was wrong with the fish. They just weren't moving and behaving as they usually do. Sure enough, I got up close to examine them and all of them are absolutely INFESTED with ich (I'd really pay a lot to know what people are doing back there when I'm not there for entire sections of animals to just suddenly come down with this bad a case of ich overnight on my ONE day off

) They're ALIVE but are they happy and healthy? Are they stressed? My sailfin is swimming in place with his nose straight up, tail straight down, my puffer and trigger are huddled together in the tiny spot where the water comes out after filtration, my bicolor angel is trying to cram himself into the little spot between the wall and the hi-lo box... It's pure speculation on my part precisely what emotion they're feeling but I think I can safely say that it's not a pleasant emotion!
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I would also like to take a moment to commend the participants of this thread. This is a mature, informative discussion on a normally very heated issue!
I adore a good debate :cheer: I think I learn more at times like these than any other!
And i don't even think luvtang even reads this anymore since he/she hasnt posted in a while.
Yeah, but it's still a great discussion and likely very helpful to anyone else reading it so party on!!

 

[jcrim]

Originally Posted by DaneDodger
I do disagree with ya on that one, though! Take yesterday at work for an example. The minute I came in and looked at my tanks from a distance I could tell something was wrong with the fish. They just weren't moving and behaving as they usually do. Sure enough, I got up close to examine them and all of them are absolutely INFESTED with ich (I'd really pay a lot to know what people are doing back there when I'm not there for entire sections of animals to just suddenly come down with this bad a case of ich overnight on my ONE day off

) They're ALIVE but are they happy and healthy? Are they stressed? My sailfin is swimming in place with his nose straight up, tail straight down, my puffer and trigger are huddled together in the tiny spot where the water comes out after filtration, my bicolor angel is trying to cram himself into the little spot between the wall and the hi-lo box... It's pure speculation on my part precisely what emotion they're feeling but I think I can safely say that it's not a pleasant emotion!
When I was talking about speculating as to the emotions of a fish, I was referring to an apparently healthy fish. Of course fish can show physical signs of stress and disease, but when none are present, people sometimes still refer to a fish not being "happy" or "comfortable".