Another Introduced Species

[ophiura]

I solemnly swear that I in no way intended to implicate Hardcrab67, or any other RESPONSIBLE hobbyist, in the first posted thread. Please make every attempt to educate those who are not RESPONSIBLE hobbyists. This is my hope, passion, and intent in posting. It is a serious issue, worthy of a rant, frankly (and if you look around long enough in this hobby you will see rants on far less important topics!!

). A well known aquarium guru in fact has a "rant of the month"...and sometimes more frequently! I don't get real worked up about a lot, but this is a big issue, and needs a big voice from us!
IMO, there are responsible hobbyists who are impulse buyers, impulse buyers who become responsible hobbyists, etc, etc, and not all of these people will release fish. There are people who genuinely believe they are doing the right thing, though irresponsible. People can change through awareness of the reality of this issue and education. Make it so

Thanks,
Ophiura

 

[hardcrab67]

Originally Posted by Gexkko
The exact quote was thanks to fellow hobbyists, not my fellow hobbyists.
Since she was speaking directly to members of the board, "fellow hobbyists" implies hobbyists outside the confines of this message board. She did not state "you" in reference to members of the board, or "my fellow hobbyists" which would have been reference to those not her, including those on this board. As I stated above, her terminology was a clearly implied reference to those hobbyists (or impulse buyers as you choose to refer to them) not reading these boards.
However, it was not a reference to all hobbyists not reading these boards. It was a reference quite simply to those hobbyists who have, in fact, introduced non-native species, a reference she made using fewer words, apparently a mistake (hence my multi-paragraph explanation).
Now, your taking offense at the stated term was not due to any fault of Ophiura, but rather your own hypersensitivity and inability to grasp the nuances of written English. Do not attack Ophiura, an educated source and valued member of these boards, simply because you can't grasp the language she uses; language, I might add, which is quite clear to myself and many others it seems.
Okay I stand corrected on this part of the thread anyway, but at the end it was truly directed at the board in the last sentence. So I guess thats why I took an offense and used it to voice my opinion about this and other threads, that her and I have conversed on.

 

[hardcrab67]

Originally Posted by ophiura
There were complains about the avatar in question. This site is not a "public" free speech board. The company has a right to decide what customers they want, and what they want people to see. And that is not what they generally want people to see on a fish board. I am sorry if you disagree, but it is part of my "job" to watch out for such things, nor is it a RIGHT for people to have such avatars on this board.
You have taken things very personally, and I do not know why. But it is a true waste of time, frankly, to continue on nit picky things like this.
I just took it as you using your powers as a MOD to hardline someone on your personal preference, after all there was nothing indecent about it and still being used. Don't know if it was true, but user said she was one of them in the pic. I don't get the big deal about it.

 

[hardcrab67]

Originally Posted by ophiura
I solemnly swear that I in no way intended to implicate Hardcrab67, or any other RESPONSIBLE hobbyist, in the first posted thread. Please make every attempt to educate those who are not RESPONSIBLE hobbyists. This is my hope, passion, and intent in posting. It is a serious issue, worthy of a rant, frankly (and if you look around long enough in this hobby you will see rants on far less important topics!!

). A well known aquarium guru in fact has a "rant of the month"...and sometimes more frequently! I don't get real worked up about a lot, but this is a big issue, and needs a big voice from us!
IMO, there are responsible hobbyists who are impulse buyers, impulse buyers who become responsible hobbyists, etc, etc, and not all of these people will release fish. There are people who genuinely believe they are doing the right thing, though irresponsible. People can change through awareness of the reality of this issue and education. Make it so

Thanks,
Ophiura
Okay Mrs. Picard, will do

 

[hot883]

I want to thank you for posting the informative article. I also want to thank you for helping me in the past many, many times. You can't please everyone all the time. So what. Feathers and fins get ruffled. Thanks Ophiura (you little girl)

 

[dogstar]

I agree that some cases of aquatic introduced species are the result of the hobby, for many reasons. And one can single out the hobby and ask that more attention be placed on it if thats how they feel. I agree that many hobbiest are not aware of the potenial problems that releaseing exotic, non native, invasive, whatever you choose to call them , into the wild can cause problems with native species or other damage to benifical species, dangers to humans, ect.
But it is true that in many cases the introductions thru history have not been only by the hobbiest.
Many other major problems are caused by other industries such as food and fish farming allowing species to escape. Many cases were scientist themselfs recomending to Governments to use introduced species to control other invasive ones and those programs going bad. Public Aquariums also have been blamed for releasing invasive species to the wild, Scientis themselves and college programs and many reaserch institutions are all to blame for many cases thru the years. Public and private programs for sport hunting and fishing.
And yes, shipping industy also.
Can loss of habitat and other enviomental changes cause unusual migrations and then to talk about non aquatic examples, flowers and plants, birds and other livestock for disply and research, sport, farming for food or fur, ect. has been going on for ever. We have horses in America....
Some may want to outlaw the hobby all together and some day that may be a reality as its beginning in some areas of the counrty and world now, but will stop the problem??
Again, im not saying the careless hobbiest is not responcble for some cases but I think there a bigger picture to look at......

 

[misty7850]

Originally Posted by lion_crazz
Not that she needs to be defended at all, but Ophiura is extremely intelligent and incredibly calm and kind. The things you said about her could not be any more wrong.
Ophiura, I totally agree with you on this subject and wish more aquarists were more responsible and conscientious when it comes to the hobby that we all love.

Ditto lion_crazz... Ophiura and the rest of the mods are most helpful.. One should not take the information personal.. its all informative and helpful in one way or another.. Unfortunately there are people, professional and others that put the species they no longer want into the rivers, ocean, etc... near where they live.....
**I take it as "If the shoe fits wear it, If it doesn't then don't worry about it".. Its all helpful information for one person or another.

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by Dogstar
Some may want to outlaw the hobby all together and some day that may be a reality as its beginning in some areas of the counrty and world now, but will stop the problem??
Again, im not saying the careless hobbiest is not responcble for some cases but I think there a bigger picture to look at......

Dogstar,
As always, thanks for your point of view. We don't always agree, but I ALWAYS appreciate your perspective, and ability to present it. Thanks

I agree really with all your points. My primary concern, though, is that we really need to be aware of what this hobby is getting "saddled" with, what perceptions are around it, and really get on the ball with doing what we can from the HOBBY perspective to educate. I think the Habitattitude link is quite helpful and a great step in the right direction

Many of the other sources of introduction are under a lot of study to minimize introductions, but there seems to be less patience for this hobby and hobbyists. The first step, IMO, is that people really DO need to be aware that it only takes a few people to unfortunately make a big impact through releases.l

 

[cjason3041]

hey side bar.... i have had a fowlr for going on 3 years.... i love it i have a question. i have had a brittle star for a year or year and a half. he has gotten quite large, probably 1 foot in diameter, maybe a bit bigger. so how much bigger will he get...he is starting to look cramped in my 10gal tank. can i put him back in the ocean. i live by virginia beach?.... no no i am joking, he is in a 55 gal and i would never release. but seriously how big will he get? can i use this to convince my wife we NEED a bigger tank?

 

[ophiura]

Well, what color is it?
But absolutely you need a bigger tank. Absolutely.

 

[cjason3041]

a greenish color...which i heard could be agressive?...but i have NEVER had a problem, but i noticed my coral beauty nip at him the other day during a feeding!!! bad fish, i scolded him and he has not done it again

 

[alyssia]

Originally Posted by hardcrab67
You may not be the tang police, but a few weeks ago you felt like you had to be the avatar police, that and the statements toward me in the other debate, set this off. For this I do not apologize either.

Wow, I can never figure out why the mods get bashed for doing their jobs. It's what they are SUPPOSED to do!

 

[tx reef]

Originally Posted by TX Reef

:hilarious

You beat me to it.
I was going to say the same thing.
A dolphin is a fish, a porpoise is a mammal...

I was just making a joke to lighten the situation.
I really do not want to get caught up in this.
If I offended anyone, I am sorry.
Accept my apologies and get this thread back on track.

And yes, Ophiura, the smiling fish is very cute.... :happyfish

 

[gexkko]

Ok, now that we all seem to have finished offending each other, time to get back to the real issue.
Dogstar, you are absolutely 100% correct. Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that even if hobbiests are the cause of only 5% (and I think I'm being very generous there, I'd give it an even lower perecentage) of all introduced species problems, and even if that was only caused by say 5% of those in the hobby (may or may not be accurate), public opinion still places 90% of the blame on us (of course, my percentages are all completely made up to show a point...)
Commercial industry brings in too much money to be blamed. Scientists are only trying to help. The Government just wants whats best for its people. Hobbiests though...damn them all, they want to exploit the environment for their own personal enjoyment and then release everything back into the wild... (end sarcasm)
The only way to get the blame off the shoulders of responsible aquarists (sp?) and other hobbiests for that matter (I'm a huge reptile nut as well as a fledgling SW nut) is to make everyone who has a tank a responsible owner. Until people can see the beauty of the hobby, and all the efforts that hobbiests take to protect the environment (aquaculturing and fragging anyone?), we will continue to be blamed for the errors of everyone, not just the irresponsible hobbiests...
Of course, when dishing out blame, the uneducated always seem to forget about the merchants who irresponsibly sold the "impulse buyer" (sorry hardcrab, I must steal it because it is a fitting term) everything they needed to make an expensive mistake and subsequent "humane" release into the wild...

 

[reef diver]

LOL It's a bit off topic, but I heard that customs in the U.S. and mexico, allow for someone to return to the states from mexico carrying a bag of several hermits. As long as it is known they are going to an aquarium is this true?

 

[gexkko]

You can come back from mexico with a lot of wierd stuff.

 

[promisetbg]

Originally Posted by hardcrab67
I believe you stated the ocean was the maximum care level and yet you yourself said you suggest 30gal is a good start, when you know the people buying them are going to want that pretty little yellow fish to go in it and your boss would fire you if thats what they want and you didn't sell it to them.
My boss and I both will not sell a tang to people with a tank that is too small or too new for that matter. The same goes for everything else in the store, as long as the customer is being honest with the tank they have and how it's set up. It seems you make alot of assumptions in your posts. Do you feel better now?

 

[hardcrab67]

Not really, but thx for asking. I will stay in my shell and offer nothing else but this- I'm wrong, everyone else is right. I'm the only one who flames his opinions and assumptions! My point is the only one that should not be viewed or discussed(unless I'm personally attacked), and Lord knows I can't build a soapbox high enough to get past the elevated nostrils. When I asked this board for help, I got zip, noda. It finally took being sarcastic to get a response(which still offered no help). With all the wealth in knowledge on here, I couldn't scrape a dime's worth off a post. So there you have it, in a crabshell. Ophiura, I apologize. I'm just as passionate in my vitriolic sludge(good one, actually had to look it up) as the next person and for this I'm wrong. Since condescending rhetoric is so prevalent here, I let it get the best of me.

 

[ophiura]

I appreciate that.
And let me just say this, because it has come up many times in "why posts don't get answered" threads.
It can be for a number of reasons. It can be a common question that people don't want to answer again. It can be because people genuinely just don't have a clue. There have been times I didn't know what the question was so didn't answer. There can be times when people aren't quick to supply requested information, so people don't bother to continue. There can be all manner of reasons why people don't answer threads...but as people don't KNOW you, it is not a personal thing. It is a matter of trying to figure out what it may be in the question that is not working.
As for tone, I know you didn't think that was a good answer when I mentioned it but it is a VERY common problem when writing. I am at work, I do give what are, frankly, terse answers sometimes because that is what I have time for. I am not saying "man, this guy is an idiot so I am going to answer in such and such a way." Often its like "oh, man, I want to get a quick answer in there before I have to go" and it is that or sometimes nothing. But not a personal thing. If I thought someone was really beyond reach, then I wouldn't answer anything at all.
Are the answers abrupt sometimes? yes...I've been around a long time, and answered the same questions many times, and each time don't put the same effort into it. I have the same issues others do...it gets "old" answering the same questions when there is a search feature.
I am guilty of that, but don't read further into the tone. As I've said many many many times in my threads I am NOT a fan of escalation in threads. I don't think it gets anywhere. If you think someone (even me ) was mean, maybe just say "hey, I don't know if it was meant that way but...?" And often they may respond with "oh no, didn't mean that." If people did that more often, so many of the flare ups we see would never get anywhere, because rarely is their truly intent to be mean - most are unintentional misunderstandings, not "condescending rhetoric"

 

[coachklm]

Originally Posted by Gexkko
You can come back from mexico with a lot of wierd stuff.
:thinking: do I sence an expeirience in that tone :hilarious :hilarious :hilarious

:hilarious :hilarious
that was the funniest post in this thread....
and yeah I agree on the topic of the thread.... yes that was a diplomatic opinion open for interpretation... :hilarious
P>S> To Each, Their Own