darth tang
Active Member
I also wanted to add we have went in with troops into many countries with no oil, that needed aid and such to stop genocides and other issues. Problem is, you can't be everywhere.
Any of you guys sign the declaration for the ONE org.?
- Thread starter nemo lover
- Start date
ophiura
Active Member
Africa is a huge potential oil source and has several major proven fields and ongoing exploration by several major oil companies. So that hasn't helped much. Must always keep your bribe money in hand to try and do the work and stay alive. So it is a microcosm: the same issues that are the true plague in Africa on a smaller scale.
We've donated billions upon billions of dollars, not to mention debt relief, most of which ended up in the hands of or benefit of corrupt African leaders. Tribal hatred and wars still dominate in much of the region and who cares if you are able to starve out your enemy and their children..it is an extremely effective way to win. Don't have to spend much on an army. No amount of money will change beliefs like that.
How about this? How about having your rock concerts in beautiful Uganda and Namibia and take pretty pretentious little rocker people to the source. Someplace other than South Africa. These little preachy things who are probably back stage throwing temper tantrums at what the caterer dared to serve them while preaching about waste and starvation and our role in it. May lure a few thousand people there to really see things. To really see potential and the waste and the true source of problems. Its easy to put money where your mouth is...try putting your feet there instead. Visit beautiful Zimba
e...give Mugabe a hug for me and a promise of a few more million dollars on his way. I wonder if these politicos are just THRILLED to know these concerts are going on. Several must be booking their next holiday waiting for the money to roll in. Grants or not, people hand out bribes for their lives.
Its like a ***** thread...so easy to blame the big company/countries/religions (as the Catholic church is getting much of the blame for the AIDS crisis there). So easy to ignore what they've done in the past to try and change things and keep blaming. Maybe if that tune changed people would pay more attention. For me it is the same song I've heard for a long time. Its my fault, its my governments fault...yadda yadda yadda. I've got no problem with giving money or taxmoney to good causes, I've got no issue sending in our troops for good causes, its not a democrat/republican, rich/poor issue.
It is a failure of those at the root of the problem in Africa to desire change and demonstrate acceptance of responsibility.
A bunch of rock stars, or even the G-8 countries with the best of intent, won't solve that problem without African leaders accepting responsibility. Somehow I don't think my name on a petition will change their minds, but I guess it won't hurt either. Just be honest with yourself as to the source of the problem...IMO, the western world has not turned their back on Africa and doesn't intend too.
Yes, I did have to get that off my chest.
I'm really tired of rock stars and actors and their preaching. Some are good, some are....whatever. I won't say more
We've donated billions upon billions of dollars, not to mention debt relief, most of which ended up in the hands of or benefit of corrupt African leaders. Tribal hatred and wars still dominate in much of the region and who cares if you are able to starve out your enemy and their children..it is an extremely effective way to win. Don't have to spend much on an army. No amount of money will change beliefs like that.
How about this? How about having your rock concerts in beautiful Uganda and Namibia and take pretty pretentious little rocker people to the source. Someplace other than South Africa. These little preachy things who are probably back stage throwing temper tantrums at what the caterer dared to serve them while preaching about waste and starvation and our role in it. May lure a few thousand people there to really see things. To really see potential and the waste and the true source of problems. Its easy to put money where your mouth is...try putting your feet there instead. Visit beautiful Zimba
Its like a ***** thread...so easy to blame the big company/countries/religions (as the Catholic church is getting much of the blame for the AIDS crisis there). So easy to ignore what they've done in the past to try and change things and keep blaming. Maybe if that tune changed people would pay more attention. For me it is the same song I've heard for a long time. Its my fault, its my governments fault...yadda yadda yadda. I've got no problem with giving money or taxmoney to good causes, I've got no issue sending in our troops for good causes, its not a democrat/republican, rich/poor issue.
It is a failure of those at the root of the problem in Africa to desire change and demonstrate acceptance of responsibility.
A bunch of rock stars, or even the G-8 countries with the best of intent, won't solve that problem without African leaders accepting responsibility. Somehow I don't think my name on a petition will change their minds, but I guess it won't hurt either. Just be honest with yourself as to the source of the problem...IMO, the western world has not turned their back on Africa and doesn't intend too.
Yes, I did have to get that off my chest.
sleeper
Member
Ophiura, I certainly agree that it is all too easy to blame one faction, one group for something, without really considering the whole picture. A great example is liberals in the U.S. who blame the Republican party for the war in Iraq (I am a pretty liberal guy, BTW), when just as many Democrats voted to authorize "the use of force", and all of the presidential candidates (except Dean and Kucinich) were in favor of the intervention. The same goes for the ***** debate, the same goes for any conflicts at all!
However, I greatly distrust this theory that African leadership "has to get its act together" as though that's some kind of realist option. I think it's sort of like saying the parents of abused chiuldren need to "get their act together" and we shouldn't be interfering with families. The average African citizen is still grossly undereducated, underfed, lacks basic privations and medicine, and in many cases, are the victims of some of the world's worst dictaotrs (many of whom have enjoyed U.S. and European support, to boot).
NGOs that seek to circumvent those governments... even the governments that aren't necessarily ductatorships but have big policy gaps on AIDs and hunger, can only be part of the solution, whether they're a bit naive or no.
I do believe we have been a bit guilty of turning our backs on these poor, poor people, too put down by their neighbors to even have the strength or wherewithal to improve their own circumstances. Can you imagine if the U.S. North had simply waited for Southern leaders to get their acts together, instead of doing something about slavery? While signing a silly petition may be useless -- and while some rock stars are just completely clueless -- in the end, if we don't start realizing our connection to all other humans, and animals at that, we're going to be the cause of our own doom as a race.
However, I greatly distrust this theory that African leadership "has to get its act together" as though that's some kind of realist option. I think it's sort of like saying the parents of abused chiuldren need to "get their act together" and we shouldn't be interfering with families. The average African citizen is still grossly undereducated, underfed, lacks basic privations and medicine, and in many cases, are the victims of some of the world's worst dictaotrs (many of whom have enjoyed U.S. and European support, to boot).
NGOs that seek to circumvent those governments... even the governments that aren't necessarily ductatorships but have big policy gaps on AIDs and hunger, can only be part of the solution, whether they're a bit naive or no.
I do believe we have been a bit guilty of turning our backs on these poor, poor people, too put down by their neighbors to even have the strength or wherewithal to improve their own circumstances. Can you imagine if the U.S. North had simply waited for Southern leaders to get their acts together, instead of doing something about slavery? While signing a silly petition may be useless -- and while some rock stars are just completely clueless -- in the end, if we don't start realizing our connection to all other humans, and animals at that, we're going to be the cause of our own doom as a race.
ophiura
Active Member
If it is not a realistic option for African leaders to get their act together, then I honestly don't see a solution to the problem. Because I don't see realistic intervention that will be a long term solution. We've been pouring money into the continent for quite some time...so what is the solution? I don't think brute force will go over well. I don't think convincing will go over well. Continue bribery and payoffs? I just don't know what the solution is without African participation in that solution. I think that accepting that they have the power and responsibility to solve the actual problem is crucial to long term success in the region. :nope: Maybe that is me turning my back on it. Maybe you're right on that. I just don't know, and am tired of being blamed as an American for the problems...and as a Catholic for the AIDS problem there too.
sleeper
Member
I don't really see it as blame.
I see it as an indictment to help.
If you walk past a woman being assaulted and don't do anything, nobody BLAMES you... but they might still think you're kind of a creep for letting it happen.
As a raised Catholic... no longer practicing... I have to say, the Catholic Church's opposition to condoms and birthcontrol in developing countries is pretty outlandish. And that would be bad enough, but they're campaigning AGAINST the rather than just refusing to support them. That, to me, is outright culpable behavior.
I don't think anyone blames you, Ophiura. You're obviously an intelligent, caring person (based on your concern for animals here on this site), and I should also mention damn cute (I've seen the pics) ... but these are areas where those in power have perhaps been negligent and borish in their dealings with the outside world. I would almost think as a *woman* you would be equally offended at the church's stance on the priesthood, and how condemning birth control makes women into second class citizens, even here in the U.S.
None of this is to say these powerful countries, or religions, are evil. It's simply to say that with great power comes great responsability. And sometimes it's the task of the little man on the saltwaterfish forums to call out the big guys who aren't coming through, that's all.
I see it as an indictment to help.
If you walk past a woman being assaulted and don't do anything, nobody BLAMES you... but they might still think you're kind of a creep for letting it happen.
As a raised Catholic... no longer practicing... I have to say, the Catholic Church's opposition to condoms and birthcontrol in developing countries is pretty outlandish. And that would be bad enough, but they're campaigning AGAINST the rather than just refusing to support them. That, to me, is outright culpable behavior.
I don't think anyone blames you, Ophiura. You're obviously an intelligent, caring person (based on your concern for animals here on this site), and I should also mention damn cute (I've seen the pics)
... but these are areas where those in power have perhaps been negligent and borish in their dealings with the outside world. I would almost think as a *woman* you would be equally offended at the church's stance on the priesthood, and how condemning birth control makes women into second class citizens, even here in the U.S.None of this is to say these powerful countries, or religions, are evil. It's simply to say that with great power comes great responsability. And sometimes it's the task of the little man on the saltwaterfish forums to call out the big guys who aren't coming through, that's all.
ophiura
Active Member
Originally Posted by sleeper
None of this is to say these powerful countries, or religions, are evil. It's simply to say that with great power comes great responsability. And sometimes it's the task of the little man on the saltwaterfish forums to call out the big guys who aren't coming through, that's all.
I think we will simply have to agree to disagree with the best of intents :yes: I don't think we will change each other's minds on this one
I think that the G-8 countries are trying to help, and the people of the west have been trying to help, and I expect the powerful people in Africa to be held accountable and try to help too. I don't think you can be "let off" simply because you are some two-bit warlord in Africa. If you are starving people to death, you are a powerful person and have responsibility. And if you are having ---, you have personal responsibility. If you are a Catholic, that actually means no premarital ---, and afterward --- within the confines of a committed and exclusive marriage. You can't ignore those, and then say "oh but I can't use a condom." Blaming the church, IMO, is somewhat of a cop out. I didn't think married Catholics were a high risk group for AIDS.
I will not comment on my feelings as a woman and a Catholic because this is not a religious thread. However I will say that I am not offended by the teachings of the church but often insulted by men who assume that because I AM a *woman* I must surely have certain beliefs. I don't like to be "generalized" in any way. :yes:
None of this is to say these powerful countries, or religions, are evil. It's simply to say that with great power comes great responsability. And sometimes it's the task of the little man on the saltwaterfish forums to call out the big guys who aren't coming through, that's all.
I think we will simply have to agree to disagree with the best of intents :yes: I don't think we will change each other's minds on this one
I think that the G-8 countries are trying to help, and the people of the west have been trying to help, and I expect the powerful people in Africa to be held accountable and try to help too. I don't think you can be "let off" simply because you are some two-bit warlord in Africa. If you are starving people to death, you are a powerful person and have responsibility. And if you are having ---, you have personal responsibility. If you are a Catholic, that actually means no premarital ---, and afterward --- within the confines of a committed and exclusive marriage. You can't ignore those, and then say "oh but I can't use a condom." Blaming the church, IMO, is somewhat of a cop out. I didn't think married Catholics were a high risk group for AIDS.
I will not comment on my feelings as a woman and a Catholic because this is not a religious thread. However I will say that I am not offended by the teachings of the church but often insulted by men who assume that because I AM a *woman* I must surely have certain beliefs. I don't like to be "generalized" in any way.
:yes:
nemo lover
Member
but most of these women don't have a chance to consent or not. Its just taken.
Everyone has great opinions some I agree with, and some I don't. Based on Humanity and my beliefs. I know there is a cause for concern. That us as a whole need to address.
Everyone has great opinions some I agree with, and some I don't. Based on Humanity and my beliefs. I know there is a cause for concern. That us as a whole need to address.
reefraff
Active Member
It seems like world leaders and the media are afraid to point out the problems with the African leadership lest they be branded as racists. I think the answer is true reform of the UN. It can't be a country or countries, it has to be the world. As long as the US is paying better that a quarter of the price for the UN we ought to use that as a club to insist on a little reform. If we could get a UN head that was more interested in making a difference rather than making his kid rich on oil for food contracts the UN could do a lot of good.
I also think that if there was a lot of oil readily available in africa the world would be much more involed. Notice how the blue blood Eurotrash who delight in looking down their noses at us greedy Americans aren't there either? The problem is a lot closer to their back yard than ours. I'd really like to see us work a little harder to reform Mexico. If they could wipe out government corruption there we would have to solicite those people to come up here to work.
I also think that if there was a lot of oil readily available in africa the world would be much more involed. Notice how the blue blood Eurotrash who delight in looking down their noses at us greedy Americans aren't there either? The problem is a lot closer to their back yard than ours. I'd really like to see us work a little harder to reform Mexico. If they could wipe out government corruption there we would have to solicite those people to come up here to work.
darth tang
Active Member
It can't be a country or countries, it has to be the world.
You may as well ask for the winning numbers to the next Powerball in advance. There is a better chance of that occurring. You are basicly asking over 300 countries with their own problems, issues, famine, natural disasters, and education issues to get involved in a region that basicly has no effect on their own countries livelihood. United Nations intervention? The leaders of the countries in question are on the UN panel in various forms. Thus able to politic their way out of "responsibility". Look at the Oil for Food scandal. This was a program set up by the UN to "help" the people of Iraq and force Sadaam to be "responsible". Yet we find out more and more of the corruption involved in that and how "responsible" Hussein was with that program as well as other "concerned" UN officials.
Bottomline, without direct military intervention by our country (which will never happen because as a country I feel we have lost the will to get our hands dirty for the benefit of the world) things will remain the same for a longtime, no matter how much money we pump into the continent.
As a sidenote, the AIDS epidemic is brought on not by the cathlic church's opposition to condoms but by money. I watched an HBO documentary that discussed the women selling their bodies in Africa and the aids correlation. Many of the women will accept --- without a condom if the customer is willing to pay more than normal price. Who's fault is that? The Catholic church, government, or the individual's?
You may as well ask for the winning numbers to the next Powerball in advance. There is a better chance of that occurring. You are basicly asking over 300 countries with their own problems, issues, famine, natural disasters, and education issues to get involved in a region that basicly has no effect on their own countries livelihood. United Nations intervention? The leaders of the countries in question are on the UN panel in various forms. Thus able to politic their way out of "responsibility". Look at the Oil for Food scandal. This was a program set up by the UN to "help" the people of Iraq and force Sadaam to be "responsible". Yet we find out more and more of the corruption involved in that and how "responsible" Hussein was with that program as well as other "concerned" UN officials.
Bottomline, without direct military intervention by our country (which will never happen because as a country I feel we have lost the will to get our hands dirty for the benefit of the world) things will remain the same for a longtime, no matter how much money we pump into the continent.
As a sidenote, the AIDS epidemic is brought on not by the cathlic church's opposition to condoms but by money. I watched an HBO documentary that discussed the women selling their bodies in Africa and the aids correlation. Many of the women will accept --- without a condom if the customer is willing to pay more than normal price. Who's fault is that? The Catholic church, government, or the individual's?
ophiura
Active Member
The individuals, IMO!! :yes: However unpopular it may be
The Catholic church does not condone prostitution, --- outside of marriage, and multiple partners. So blaming the Catholic church, as some do, because of their stance on condoms is a bit strange..."oh, I can have --- with all the people (even though THAT is against my religion), but I can't use a condom because it is against my religion." Say what? What makes people think that if the church changed their whole teaching just because of Africa, that people would start using condoms?? Come on. People will still pay more to not use a condom. The "blame the Catholic Church" is a cop out, IMO. Having --- but not using a condom is not the church's problem or decision, that is picking and choosing your sins which you are given the free will to do but you must accept them as your own.
Its like buying something at *****, and blaming them when you bought something you can't keep. Its easy to do and it makes you feel better to think there is some evil corporate entity out there trying to keep you down...whether it is a country, church or corporation. Makes people feel they are off the hook.
Part of the African problem is trying to lay blame anywhere else but where it should...with the individual warlords, dictators and others. It is a rampant problem with AIDS and the distrubition of food, money, education, etc in Africa.
I personally agree that the only true Western "solution" would involve military intervention. I think there is too much corruption in the UN as an institution - not as a theory but as it actually is run at this time. But it is not likely to happen. More money is a nice idea, maybe a short term solution...but it doesn't solve the problem, IMO, which is why it is still an issue. When was Live Aid.....Do they know its Christmas time at alllll.......When was USA for Africa?
:yes: However unpopular it may be The Catholic church does not condone prostitution, --- outside of marriage, and multiple partners. So blaming the Catholic church, as some do, because of their stance on condoms is a bit strange..."oh, I can have --- with all the people (even though THAT is against my religion), but I can't use a condom because it is against my religion." Say what? What makes people think that if the church changed their whole teaching just because of Africa, that people would start using condoms?? Come on. People will still pay more to not use a condom. The "blame the Catholic Church" is a cop out, IMO. Having --- but not using a condom is not the church's problem or decision, that is picking and choosing your sins which you are given the free will to do but you must accept them as your own.
Its like buying something at *****, and blaming them when you bought something you can't keep. Its easy to do and it makes you feel better to think there is some evil corporate entity out there trying to keep you down...whether it is a country, church or corporation. Makes people feel they are off the hook.
Part of the African problem is trying to lay blame anywhere else but where it should...with the individual warlords, dictators and others. It is a rampant problem with AIDS and the distrubition of food, money, education, etc in Africa.
I personally agree that the only true Western "solution" would involve military intervention. I think there is too much corruption in the UN as an institution - not as a theory but as it actually is run at this time. But it is not likely to happen. More money is a nice idea, maybe a short term solution...but it doesn't solve the problem, IMO, which is why it is still an issue. When was Live Aid.....Do they know its Christmas time at alllll.......When was USA for Africa?
ericp2311
Member
Well, this thread is certainly more interesting than "yep...yep..."
Reading this, I am reminded of how lucky we all are, to be where we are. However much we may gripe about the policies of the US (some more than others) or the current administration, we all enjoy an extremely high standard of living.
I say "we all" because I assume that everyone reading this has a SW aquarium, which indicates that we all have disposable income (again, some more than others).
I honestly couldn't even imagine what life is like in Africa...especially amongst the poor there. I wonder if I myself would have the strength, the ingenuity, the perseverence or the determination that it takes to eke out a living in that unforgiving land.
The need of the people there is so great, it seems, sometimes, like an empty gesture to attend a rock concert, or buy a bottle of water, or drop off my old clothing. But am I really willing to do more?
It's really a lot to think about! I thought my fish tank was complicated!!
Eric
Reading this, I am reminded of how lucky we all are, to be where we are. However much we may gripe about the policies of the US (some more than others) or the current administration, we all enjoy an extremely high standard of living.
I say "we all" because I assume that everyone reading this has a SW aquarium, which indicates that we all have disposable income (again, some more than others).
I honestly couldn't even imagine what life is like in Africa...especially amongst the poor there. I wonder if I myself would have the strength, the ingenuity, the perseverence or the determination that it takes to eke out a living in that unforgiving land.
The need of the people there is so great, it seems, sometimes, like an empty gesture to attend a rock concert, or buy a bottle of water, or drop off my old clothing. But am I really willing to do more?
It's really a lot to think about! I thought my fish tank was complicated!!
Eric
