Anyone Reduced Nitrates Effectively?

[fmarini]

Hi:
this is a copy of the response i gave in the other forum to his same question. I will also say that one of the main problems is excessive bioload, however in this case it doesn't seem all that high. The filtration appears fine, but there is no export mechanism to remove the excessive nitrates, and they don't magically go away (w/o a DSB) so figure out a way to remove the nitrates and you'll be set.
see below

[hr]
Hi:
This is what i will recommedn to reduce nitrate levels
1)- water changes, big ones and frequently, like the group in my 180gal I do 60gal/month. If i need to knock em down quick I do 2 changes of 50 gal/each 2 days apart.
2)- have a real good skimmer and make sures its working optimally. I have a BulletXl driven by a MAK4 I get prolly 6-8oz of black gunk every 2 days, believe me if you see the funk that comes out of your tank when you skim you'll wonder why people don't use skimmers.
3)-clean... do you have a CC substrate? if so i guarentee you have all kinds of poop and waste trapped in it. I vaccum 1/3 of my substrate evey month, and then do my water change.
4) reduce your feedings or fish load. Everytime you feed you add more nutrients into the water column and w/o anywhere for them to go. Check your water chemistry 1 day after you feed, especially if you feed meaty foods frequently. You'll be in for a surprise. Also remember more fish =more waste. So reduce fishload=reduced waste load
5)- if you have a sump consider adding a 4-6 " DSB in it, and consider adding plants ito create a refugium.
6)- as a last resort there is a product called AZ-NO3 (stands for absolutely zero-nitrates), this product will knock down 50ppm of nitrate to under 5ppm in 2-3 days. One bottle will treat approx100gal. This is a temporay thing, your Nitrates will stay down for about 2 weeks. However during this time you implement all the corrective actions to ensure you good water parameters.
Of course you could just concern yourself less about your nitrate problems. I equate nitrate to smog, while its not great to live in smog, its not immediately lethal, its more of a chronic problem. Personally, i would try to keep them down.
frank

 

[sgt__york]

Gotta agree w/stingray... what i've constantly said is the nitrate level is a direct result of the bio load - and only feel compelled to 'remind' ppl of that when they bash the bio-balls as a source of 'higher than normal' nitrate levels. Seems like doing so changes the focus of nitrate production - which is the bio-load.
I have to give credit to the DSB that it does slow the 'rate' of nitrate production due to it's anerobic bacteria conversion (just as a refugium does as well - and likely even better) BUT that shouldn't show bad light onto the bio-balls - as (it is thought) a DSB can be utilized with bio-balls as well to create this nitrate rate reduction.
It was this that led to the discussion of - whether DSB needs to also perform it's ammoni/nitrite conversion "locally" instead of "remotely" which I personally find a very interesting aspect and have not seen much literature on. In my opinion, this is the key to assertaining the true value of a DSB. If this is true - it opens up all kinds of other questions interesting to explore.
But getting back to an individuals case of 'how to reduce' nitrates - I gotta agree with marini - he hit the nail on the head in a list order. That's what you do lol

PS: Stingray 2 fish in a 135 gal? I hope that's not the maximum quantity speeding limit - if so, i'm going to get arrested for wreckless endangerment having 3 fish in a 75gal with plans to max out at 5 total rofl
Btw, i heard the hear the 'rule of thumb' in fish quantities was 1" of fish per 5 gal of tank in a REEF tank and add another 50% if it's a fish only tank. Ie, 75gal tank = 15" of fish for reef (keeping in mind adult sizing - and returning fish if they get too big) and 22" of fish if it's a fish only tank.
Thus in a 135 gal tank = 27" of fish for reef and 40" if fish only. If keeping only 2 fish could have 2 BIG 20" fishies -- but i think they would be too big for the length of the tank lol
My goal is: 2 percula (currently 1.25" likely get 2.5" ea) + hippo tang (currently 2.5" likely get 6") + yellow tang (looking for a 3" likely to get 6") + some small wrass or dottyback (likely 2" avg). Means if i can get to about 15" - i currently have 5" - will max out in short term of 10" once i have all 5 fish which gives me about 5" of growth. As this is a rule of thumb, i think i'm well within safe limits. Add a refugium into the picture to further reduce nitrate growth rates and i should be righteous.
Time will tell - theory and actual can be 2 diff things at times hahaha Guess it takes 'experience' to turn one into the other I had 5 fish in the past - same fish actually (substitute the yellow for an achilles tang tho) - but i didn't have much in the way of corals OR a refugium. Looking forward to expanding my horizons

 

[ijeh99]

I read all your comments . . . esp. how to lower to nitrate and ammonia level. How long does it take to lower the levels if I have done water changes weekly? I have cc - I do water changes which includes vacuuming the cc weekly. I only use distilled water. I understand people use ro/di - but if i only use distilled how bad is this? I do not use tap water.
Is it really bad if my ammonia is .5 and my nitrate is 5.0?
I would appreciate comments.
I just purchased the test kit today - after not owning one for over three months. The LFS didn't have one in stock and recommended I didn't need one - I went to another store who don't carry sw fish and found the appropriate sw kit. I tested the water quality less than 24 hours after I added 2 new fish to the aquarium.

 

[sgt__york]

I think you need to provide the board with more info on your setup. How long has it been setup? What size is it? Is it a Fish Only Tank or do you have corals? Do you have Live Rock - if so, how much and how long has it been in there? What is your current bio load (including ur 2 new fish)?
Your nitrate level is NOT high. If you can 'maintain' that level that's even good for reef/coral keeping. The ammonia is a bit high tho - not likely enough to seriously stress out fish - but any higher and it will be. If it is sustained levels would need to find the source - whether it's overfeeding or something dying in the tank.
Regarding your water - here's an article for you. Talks about most types of water source - including the distilled water you mentioned.
http://www.thereefweb.com/water_selection.htm
Best of luck to you.

 

[heavenly damsel]

You also might consider changing your CC to a DSB. The advantages are numerous, including not having to vacuum weekly. Do a search on CC vs DSB to fully understand the benefits and differences.
Why do LFS reccomend CC when you are starting out?

 

[fmarini]

quote
"Why do LFS reccomend CC when you are starting out?"
becuz most of these stores are uneducated in the new ideas. CC was the substrate of choice for SW tanks in the 1980s. This is when reeftanks and FO got big, and this is when most LFS owners got into the hobby.
Also DSB "technology" is still considered unproven to many, and even a LFS here in town, sets up all new reeftanks w/ DSB and wetdry filters, why? becuz they sell more equipment and they don't trust DSBs. They know that people want DSB so they provide them, but given their druthers they would use CC and wet/drys still.
really a shame
frank

 

[ijeh99]

sgt__york,
My aquarium has been set up for over three months for FO. A few days ago I found out that I have a 21 g versus 30 g (what a bummer). I do not have corals. I did have 1 LR but you can say it is almost dead - but that is another story (it has no brittle worms or anything on it).
I currently have in my aquarium - 1 chromias, 1 talbot's damsel, 1 pseudochromis porphyreus, 1 true percula clownfish, 2 camelback shrimp, 1 sea slug, and 4 turbo snails. I am not planning to purchase any more stock except for astrea snails.
I just purchased my first test kit yesterday at a different freshwater LFS. My sw LFS said I didn't need one plus they didn't have any in stock all this time. When I came home I tested the water and I was wondering about the results.
I'm glad my nitrate is not high.
In regards to my ammonia of .5 - I do not overfeed my fish and there is nothing decaying on the bottom of the cc esp. if I clean it thoroughly each week. So I am wondering what else I may do to lower my ammonia besides water changes. Any other ideas?
In regards to the distilled water - I distill my own for my general use at home plus use for the aquarium. I live in the city but I do not care for the smell of the chlorine.
Thanks for the article for me to read.
Any additional input would help. Thanks.

 

[sgt__york]

One problem is the ammonia - which should be 0 not .5
The cause of that needs to be determined for healthier and less-stressed fish and stock.
You said you only have 1 pice of LR (and it's dead) - do you have a wet/dry at all?
I think you said you had CC earlier so i'm wondering - where is your bacteria being housed to handle your bio load??
If it's limited to that one piece of rock, and the surfaces it can find inside the tank (cc and glass) i think that might be your reason for ammonia - not enough biological filter media.
HOWEVER, let me say i am NOT experienced in smaller tanks like that - and hope others more experienced with such tanks can jump in and help shed more light on this for you.
I have a strong suspicion that one thing your going to hear (and likely need to do) is change your substrate from CC to a DSB - and begin to introduce mroe live rock. These 2 things will give you much more surface area for your biological media necessities.

 

[ijeh99]

In regards to my ammonia - I will change my water every second day and see if I can get my ammonia down so I can get a reading of 0.
I do not have a wet/dry - I have read many comments that one does not necessarily need it - I am hoping this is still true.
Good question about where my bacteria is being housed - I guess it is in the cc and in the sponge of the filter. Also, I have 5 aquarium rocks (bleached corals that you buy in the store) in it that are for sw aquariums - these rocks are still brown (diatom) even after three months. Would this not help the biological filter media?
I was hoping I could stay with cc as I don't mind vacuuming it each week. If it ends up being a real hassle than I will get PS and LS.
Thanks for your comments.

 

[sgt__york]

Yea, in my opinion you don't have adequate biological filtration. If you do NOT use a wet/dry you really need to use Live rock and live sand. I think that is the source of your ammonia.

 

[bang guy]

I agree with Sgt_York. Not enough prime surface area to house bacteria. Detritus begons to decompose within hours in your CC so unless you vacuum it every day you're going to have some ammonia. If you can get enough waterflow across the CC you may be able to get by, but if anything out of the ordinary happens it could crash your tank. How much waterflow do you have?
IMO 0.5 is HIGH ammonia and will stress any animal you put in there.

 

[ijeh99]

I have an aquaclear 150 running on full blast and a large air stone in the aquarium. If I decide to get a skimmer and skip on the wet/dry filter - would that be okay? Or visa versa?
Thanks.

 

[sgt__york]

is there any reason your against a wet/dry OR Live Sand and Live Rock combination??? A protein skimmer removes proteins, but if you don't have eough bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate - you will STILL have ammonia in the tank. Protein skimmers do'nt remove ammonia. Removing detris will definately help - but if you do'nt have the biological media - you will still have ammonia.
Personally, I really think you need 1 or the other. Your trying to do without, argueably, the most important part of a salt-water tank - the biological media.
For a tank your size - it cannot be that expensive to remove your CC and go with a Live Sand base - AND add 2-3 pieces of live rock. You can order them online for about $5/lb - would only need about 30 lbs - that's the SAME COST as a protein skimmer and would do you better.
If you want to keep your CC, then buy or MAKE a wet/dry. There are tons of pics and such of where people have made them for LESS than $30 using rubbermaid container as a sump - a 5 gallon bucket converted as a tower to house bio-balls (if you use them) and some minor plumbing to get the water to flow to your wet/dry and back into your tank. And an efficient wet/dry would take care of your ammonia problem w/o having to get rid of your CC if you like it so much.
There are various options - depending on your taste and desires - HOWEVER just ommitting an important aspect like your biological media is nothing but trouble.
that's my opinion.

 

[fmarini]

I agree whole heartedly.
Skimping out on filtration is not gonna make this easy. If you don't have either a wet/dry, live rock, or DSB you just don't have enuf surface for your filtration.
I highly recommend a skimmer, the best skimmer you can afford. Actually in a Fo tank, IMO skimmers are critical piece of equipment, if they're working properly, they remove all kinds of organic waste before it gets converted to ammonia or any by-product, it just makes sense, its a safety valve, and is good water quality practice.
I'm w/ Guy on this one, an ammonia reading of 0.5 is of concern. Have you confirmed this number by bringing a smaple to the LFS to retest?
As an a side the term protein skimmer is a misnomer. There is so little actual protein in your fish tank that the skimmer is removing mainly DOC (this is still really important at keeping your waste level low). A report which surveyed 23 hobbyists tank found 0+/-0 ug/l protein. The ocean =20ug/l (very little).You can read how and why your skimmer works here
frank

 

[ijeh99]

Wow! Lots of information and yet confusing. I don't have a problem getting a wet/dry or LS and LR. I thought since I had a smaller tank I didn't have to get that many things. I guess I'm wrong. I do know people have suggested LS or LR or protein skimmer - now I really don't know what I should do. I see that you have an argonite substrate - do you have to vacuum it regularly and is that why you have a wet/dry system?
Reading some people's opinions on cc - they said it was work but didn't mind it or changed it because of the vacuuming.
What exactly is the biological media? The build of algae and stuff over a number of months?
The two LFS for sw won't do a test for ammonia for me or any type of tests for that matter. Well, one will do nitrate for me and it was perfect a month ago before I bought my own kit. I checked the ammonia reading twice with my new kit before I asked an opinion if this was dangerous.
Thanks for the article about skimmers. Now I know how they work and it was interesting to read about them. They sound expensive.
I will check out how these things look very soon.
Thanks so much for your inputs.

 

[sgt__york]

Salt Water Aquariums is definately not a CHEAP hobby.
And 'smaller' tank doesn't necessarily mean THAT MUCH cheaper - much of the SAME equipment is needed - only in smaller strengths.
Keep in mind also - there is less forgiveness in a smaller tank - because when something goes wrong it doesn't have as much water volume to get diluted in. For example a fish dies in a 30gal tank - ammonia might spike up to .5 or 1.0 - whereas the SAME fish dies in a 120gal it might spike to .25 'if' at all.
Regarding the biological media - this is the area where you grow bacteria that consumes ammonia and converts it to nitrite. It is ALSO the area where you grow a 2nd bacteria that consumes nitrites and converts them to nitrates. Both ammonia and nitrite are toxic to fish and corals. Nitrate must be of a higher dose until it becomes 'as' stressful to them.
This bacteria is generally grown inside a wet/dry system, on Live Rock and/OR live sand. Since your tank is only a 30gal - i would recommend going with Live ROCK and Live SAnd. You don't need that much to cover your small tank. You can do a search on the board about "DSB" and find tons of info on what type of sand to use - granular sizes - and types.
Regarding Crushed Coral - this is not considered a good bacteria medium. CC being so porous also tends to capture fish debris (waste) and allows it to decompose - which produces additional ammonia (or adds to your bio-load as if it were an additional fish). CC needs to be vaccumed on occassion to remove this debris (if your bacteria media is not large enough to convert this ammonia). I have heard people that do and don't vaccum their CC regularly - but that's a discussion for another time/thread. Surfice to say - CC is "NOT" considered a media of choice for the purpose of housing your biological media.
Regarding a protein skimmer - yes you likely need to get one of those as well. As we said the hobby isn't cheap, but you can likely find an online source for 'hardware' often cheaper than you will at your LFS. You can also likely find Live Rock and Live Sand cheaper as well - at least you won't need the quantities to make that very expensive.
If you are doing a Fish ONLY tank - you don't have to be as worried about expensive lighting. If you are going for some Corals then you will - and can cross that bridge once you get your ammonia's down to 0 and the tank is ready for such things.
I also strongly recommend you get a book to help you understand more about this wonderful hobby. I recommend the following - it's a GREAT beginners book that covers most everything you will need to know and more to keep 'fish'.
The Marine Aquarium Handbook: Beginner to Breeder
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...315887-4805742
You can get a 'used' copy for LESS than $8.00 - and it will be the most VALUABLE money spent. It will give you the information to SAVE YOU MONEY from wasting it on mistakes and buying tht which you do NOT need.
Best of luck to you