cincyreefer
Active Member
No, I believe as a last chance effort to save itself it will go sexual instead of die... very similar to polyp bail. I could be wrong though.
Aquarium Pharmaceuticals tap water filter...
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overanalyzer
Active Member
Hey Bob I like your in tank refugium.... interesting idea - though with all the money you saved on lighting and water filtration I think you should've gone with a reef ready tank!
Oh well!
I don't toally agree or disagree - but I will say you are passionate about your beliefs ....
Oh well!
I don't toally agree or disagree - but I will say you are passionate about your beliefs ....
neoreef
Member
very interesting reading...
I am struck by the similarities and contrasts in our more experienced aquarists.
Both Bang Guy and Beaslebob have been doing this since the 70's and thus have seen a lot of changes.
I am impressed that Bob sticks to his method despite pointed criticism, and is pleased with the system he has. A little dangerous though, to us newbee's as his way may not work for everyone. Not everyone can do what Bob does.
Guy on the other hand does not recommend a 900g refugium to every newbee, well water, or various other things he does that do not pertain to new folks starting up their first adventure in reef aquaria. Guy knows what he is doing, and also sees that not everyone would want to do what he does.
Interesting reading.
By the way, Bob, RO/DI water is not corrosive, it is simply water. If a filter failed, it would not poison the tank, it would simply not filter, thus the tap water would remain unchanged. The failure of any the "mechanical" systems you object to would result in a slow deterioration, not a crash, IMO. A little maintainance, which for some of us is part of the fun, is all it takes.
God Bless America
I am struck by the similarities and contrasts in our more experienced aquarists.
Both Bang Guy and Beaslebob have been doing this since the 70's and thus have seen a lot of changes.
I am impressed that Bob sticks to his method despite pointed criticism, and is pleased with the system he has. A little dangerous though, to us newbee's as his way may not work for everyone. Not everyone can do what Bob does.
Guy on the other hand does not recommend a 900g refugium to every newbee, well water, or various other things he does that do not pertain to new folks starting up their first adventure in reef aquaria. Guy knows what he is doing, and also sees that not everyone would want to do what he does.
Interesting reading.
By the way, Bob, RO/DI water is not corrosive, it is simply water. If a filter failed, it would not poison the tank, it would simply not filter, thus the tap water would remain unchanged. The failure of any the "mechanical" systems you object to would result in a slow deterioration, not a crash, IMO. A little maintainance, which for some of us is part of the fun, is all it takes.
God Bless America
1journeyman
Active Member
Well, I've done a lot of reading on Fenner's webpage today:
He's firmly for skimmers, so guess I am too!
I'm glad Bob here likes his tank, but I think new aquarists might be mislead a bit by his opinions.
He's firmly for skimmers, so guess I am too!
I'm glad Bob here likes his tank, but I think new aquarists might be mislead a bit by his opinions.
dburr
Active Member
Some things suffered when nitrAtes spikes because the plant life slowed down.
Wrong, nitrates go up slowly. It's part of a cycle, it does not simply spike. Plant life slowing down cannot cause this anyway.
Additionally, the macro culture tank went from 160ppm++ nitrates (fish died and decomposed for 4 days) to 0.0 in three weeks with a baby molly growing 3/4" with no feeding,no circulation, and no filtration other than the macros. and all with tap water and no water changes.
Again, even with these failures, the fish are thriving. And most of the corals are also especially considering my $40.00 light setup and the presence of the tang and coral beauty.
Hmmm...very contradicting, how can you say fish and corals are thriving?
Plants more waste= more plant growth=more filtering. Seems stable to me.
Don't forget, your adding the first part "more waste" in the tap.
Machanical more waste= clogged mechanical filters,= less filtering. not too stable.
Lets say this is true(not) Plants would be a good "backup plan". And you wouldn't have failures, swings, fish and corals dying, ect....
Skimmers to remove proteins that reduce to ammonia and nitrates. If they cost $1.99 then they might be worth it. But at $150.00+ they are not. And again another mechanical thing that must be adjusted, maintained, and can fail.
I have run skimmerless for 2+ years. The last 4 months I've kept mainly LPS and SPS. About 6weeks ago I turned on my skimmer and the SPS have been coloring up nicely.
I have always said a new person should run a skimmer. It only makes it easier for them in the water quality department. How much do corals cost? lets say $20 on a average. 8 corals $160 bucks. Anybody that has a reef for more than 6 months has way more than that. But $150 skimmer can be the differance between saving corals from a macro crash. That makes it worth the money.
BTW: your nitrates trending down, can you just TRY RO/DI water top off and a 25% water change for a month? See for yourself how fast they will go down.
Wrong, nitrates go up slowly. It's part of a cycle, it does not simply spike. Plant life slowing down cannot cause this anyway.
Additionally, the macro culture tank went from 160ppm++ nitrates (fish died and decomposed for 4 days) to 0.0 in three weeks with a baby molly growing 3/4" with no feeding,no circulation, and no filtration other than the macros. and all with tap water and no water changes.
Again, even with these failures, the fish are thriving. And most of the corals are also especially considering my $40.00 light setup and the presence of the tang and coral beauty.
Hmmm...very contradicting, how can you say fish and corals are thriving?
Plants more waste= more plant growth=more filtering. Seems stable to me.
Don't forget, your adding the first part "more waste" in the tap.
Machanical more waste= clogged mechanical filters,= less filtering. not too stable.
Lets say this is true(not) Plants would be a good "backup plan". And you wouldn't have failures, swings, fish and corals dying, ect....
Skimmers to remove proteins that reduce to ammonia and nitrates. If they cost $1.99 then they might be worth it. But at $150.00+ they are not. And again another mechanical thing that must be adjusted, maintained, and can fail.
I have run skimmerless for 2+ years. The last 4 months I've kept mainly LPS and SPS. About 6weeks ago I turned on my skimmer and the SPS have been coloring up nicely.
I have always said a new person should run a skimmer. It only makes it easier for them in the water quality department. How much do corals cost? lets say $20 on a average. 8 corals $160 bucks. Anybody that has a reef for more than 6 months has way more than that. But $150 skimmer can be the differance between saving corals from a macro crash. That makes it worth the money.BTW: your nitrates trending down, can you just TRY RO/DI water top off and a 25% water change for a month? See for yourself how fast they will go down.
blackomne
Member
I have been reading the posts and I think that both groups have part of a good idea. Filtered water and (macro) plant life. I use the tap water filter for the moment and I have Caulerpa growing like crazy in my tank. I have been struggling for months with things and now my ph is 8.0, ammonia = 0, nitrates = 0, nitrates = 0. Best of both worlds.
Except that my red legged crabs just ate my new camelback shrimps. Them bastages.
jja
Member
I have been using this site for quite a while now and have learned more from it than any books or lfs. My view has recently changed on this topic and I feel strongly about it. I started out with a 55 with wet/dry, no skimmer and tap water. I was very successful for 2 years doing this with 10% water changes every 10 days. My corals and fish thrived( my bubble probably grew 3 times it's size.) However, I switched over to a 90 with an ecosystem and a 30 gallon fuge with calupera several months ago. Everything was doing great until one day I noticed one of the heads of my torch was completely gone! Then I looked at my wall hammer that I had for 2+years and saw it literally falling off it's base. I panicked, tested water and everything was at or around 0. I then took it to the store and got the same results. Then I bought a phosphate test kit and saw my problem. My phos. were .50! I tested my tap water and it was 3.0! I have now spent over $100 in phosphate products to try to bring it back and I am still fighting. I have also done approx. 35% in water changes with r/o water and only r/o water for top offs and still can't win. My corals seem to be holding their ground but my hammer lost probably 75% of it's tentacles.
my only thought is that maybe after all these years the phosphates from the tap leeched into the l/r and keeps putting it back in. Sorry for the long post but this has been a very sad and frustrating experience. Thankfully it was only 2 corals affected but something that could have been prevented in hindsight.
cincyreefer
Active Member
How deep is your sandbed?
bang guy
Moderator
Originally posted by jja
I have also done approx. 35% in water changes with r/o water and only r/o water for top offs and still can't win.
Just a couple of comments.
Phosphate is an integral part of Protein. If you feed your fish you add Phosphate. Just be sure not to overfeed and the fish will keep most of the phosphate for growth. If you feed frozen Brine shrimp don't add the liquid part. Thaw, strain & feed.
Most tap water is very high in Phosphate, 3.0 is actually pretty low for tap water. RO membranes can only remove about 70% of the phosphate in tap water so you're still adding 1ppm PO4 with your topoff & water changes. DI rosins will remove the other 30% if you want to use pure water.
bang guy
Moderator
Just about everything removes Phosphates. Algae, sand bed infauna, zooxanthellae, corals fish, pods.
Unfortunately, just about everything we put in the tank adds phosphate. Limiting how much is added is the best solution. Pulling it out via algae mass is great also but it's a lot better to add less in the first place.... always.
There's also a limit to how fast PO4 can be removed with algae.
Unfortunately, just about everything we put in the tank adds phosphate. Limiting how much is added is the best solution. Pulling it out via algae mass is great also but it's a lot better to add less in the first place.... always.
There's also a limit to how fast PO4 can be removed with algae.
newfishliny
Member
WHATS A MATTER WITH DISTILLED WATER: I HAVE BEEN USEING IT FOR ALMOST 2 YEARS , BUYING BY THE CASE
POLLAND SPRING--- GET IT AT MY STORE .70 GALLON
MY REEF IS DOING FINE, I WISH WE CAN USE TAP WATER
NEW FISH
cincyreefer
Active Member
Wow, 70 cents a gallon... Isn't there a LFS around you that sells Ro/DI?
newfishliny
Member
Originally posted by cincyreefer
Wow, 70 cents a gallon... Isn't there a LFS around you that sells Ro/DI?
THATS A WHOLE SALE PRICE AT MY COST, IN NEW YORK RO
WATER IS $ 1.50 GALLON
jja
Member
Thanks for the input. As far as my sandbed it is mixed sand and cc about 6 inches plus my ecosystem below with miracle mud,calupera,pods,snails etc.. I only feed small amounts of formula 1 and 2 and seaweed selects on a clip. I didn't actually have a coral die completely but most of it is gone. The part of the hammer that is left seems to be doing good but only after I used all the phosphate removal products.(seachums,kents and poly filter.) After I remove the products it seems that after 3-4 days it spikes up again that is why I am wondering if it is leeching back in from my rocks/substrate. I have about 125 lbs of l/r.
tangman99
Active Member
WOW! I've been gone for several months and I come back and Kip and Bob are still at it about tap water? It's feels like I never left .
How about water pistols at 20 paces. RO/DI for Kip and Tap for Bob of course.
I'm with Kip on this as I'm a true believer in RO/DI, but I have to give to Bob credit for being persistent even if 99.9% of us disagree with you.
Tangman.
.How about water pistols at 20 paces. RO/DI for Kip and Tap for Bob of course.
I'm with Kip on this as I'm a true believer in RO/DI, but I have to give to Bob credit for being persistent even if 99.9% of us disagree with you.
Tangman.
blackomne
Member
So I tested the tap water at my house and got a TDS of 63. (Not so bad for tap) Then I tested the filtered water off of the same tap; 99 TDS.
I checked the water from the tap water filter. I got a tap reading of 180 and a filtered reading of 45. Seems to be working the alaklinity is much much lower. There was no ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. But the Filter is new so I will TDS the water after each use.
I checked the water from the tap water filter. I got a tap reading of 180 and a filtered reading of 45. Seems to be working the alaklinity is much much lower. There was no ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. But the Filter is new so I will TDS the water after each use.