Are you still tithing during the recession?

[yearofthenick]

Christianity has been driven so far from what it was originally intended. I almost took a job at the Crystal Cathedral, and I was privied to a lot of the issues within their organization. The reason the "Hour of Power" is going feet up is because Senior Schuller ousted his son, which he gave the church to a few years ago. Schuller Jr was a good pastor but Senior Schuller didn't like the changes that were being made, so he came back and threw Jr. out. This is the primary reason no one is giving to the church anymore.... and rightfully so - Senior's made his bed, he has to sleep in it.
Another issue with Christianity is the gross misrepresentation of poverty. People think you are supposed to live a life of poverty and give everything to the church, because poverty means humility and that's what we're supposed to have, right? WRONG. Humility is a great thing, but it's just another way christianity has been manipulated so the pastors can keep their budgets nice and fat. Just disgusting!
On a similar thread - if God created us, why in the world would he create us to live in poverty and give everything to the church? Sounds a little backwards to me. I believe God created us to prosper and be successful on this earth... to be blessed by God so that we can be a blessing to others.
I believe that God intends to bless us with more than we need. This way, we can use the extra money for His good. IF God puts on your heart to feed 100,000 orphans in California, it's going to take money to do that. In order for this to be realized, two things need to happen. We need to have integrity and follow-through with the desires God has given us, and we need to give even when we're not sure if we'll receive.
As Christians, we believe that God gives us everything we have... we should give back to God's ministry as a response to everything we've been given. To some that might mean 10%, to some it might mean more.
Lastly, giving a tithe should never be throwing money into the dark. If you're going to tithe, it should be because you want to aide in the mission or purpose that the church is working for. I will never give a cent to the Crystal Cathedral, because I don't think ministry is being done there. Did you know that each pastor there has a 24/7 limo service? There's no way I'm going to give to help fund THAT, which they're choosing to blow money on - totally over the top. Drive your own cars around.
But I WILL give to christian organizations who seek to do God's will, which means helping the poor or serving a local community... even the global community. Man us americans are such pigs, in every area of life. Some people don't even have a roof over their heads. I want to give my tithe to a christian organization that provides water to tribes in Africa. People in africa die every day because there isn't clean water. How much would that suck? Dying because of dysentery or dehydration. Man, terrible. And here we are throwing a lever to get fresh water.
To answer your question, I tithe with every cent I receive, because I believe that it's ultimately God that made the way available for me to receive it. If my wife works as a server in a good section at her restaurant and makes $300, sure it could be a coincidence, but it's been happening a lot more since I've been tithing.
P.S. Interesting how much we blame God for all the bad things, but whenever something good happens, it couldn't be God... nooo way. Even some non-believers blame God whenever something bad happens. Man, make up your mind!

 

[yearofthenick]

To add to the Crystal Cathedral thing....
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...KZNiwD96290IG1
http://christianpost.com/church/Mega...sells-land-27/

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Ray J Neal
http:///forum/post/2938111
Actually, the phrase was coined by David Hannum rather than Barnum. Hannum was quoted saying the phrase when reffering to the spectators that Barnum's hoax exhibits would draw.
Hey! It's Journey Jr.!

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2938327
You don't have to give 10%. 10% comes from the Old Testament laws. Each person is to give to his own ability. (paraphrasing JC)
You have to be a little realistic here. Unless you feel that God has called you to work and give it all to the church, please don't try this. You will soon be jobless as well as homeless. God never asked me to be homeless.
We give in other ways, too. We help in the community. Our church takes on projects which we (as a church body) fund and supply labor to complete. Personally, we do things for people in need when we can. We show someone the love of God by meeting their everyday needs in some way.
If you have a problem with a particular pastor or church then by all means don't send them money. We have truly been blessed and try to be a blessing to others. Part of this is done through money given to the chuch. Money that I don't consider to be "mine" in the first place.
If you feel led to give, give.
If you do not, then don't.
Seems simple enough to me.
I assumed that you attended a church of some sort and were having financial trouble thus feeling guilty for tithing less. God doesn't try to make you feel guilty. That job is reserved for Lucifer. God wants your soul, not money.

Who me? I haven't been to church in 30 years. I used to go, but got absolutely nothing out of it. I just find it sad that there's so many people who are struggling just to buy the basic necessities in this trying economy, and they still give money to these glutonous organizations. I'm not saying all chuches take advantage of the money they receive. Catholic chuches in particular don't use their funds for the betterment of the priests or nuns who run those facilities. They truly believe in serving God, and using any money they earn to help the less fortunate in their community. It's these Mega Church Corporations that you see every Sunday I have an issue with. Sure they do notable things for their community, and also things abroad. But I'd have to guess they only give back that 10% number we keep talking about, and keep the other 90% for their benefit.
Reading some of the responses from the more religious followers here, it almost sounds like these churches you attend have this 'brainwashing effect' on you. You truly believe if you give all your worldly possessions to the church, that something wonderful will come from it. I guess for you, the church gives you peace of mind and tranquility. So that alone is worth all money you have. If that's why you do it, then good for you. I personally don't get it. I prefer to give my own way - giving direct to the people I feel who need it.

 

[stdreb27]

While it is clear the intent of this thread, I'll bite.
Originally Posted by TangMan99
http:///forum/post/2937700
The mega churches cropping up everywhere just prove how lucrative starting a church can be. They are nothing more than a tax free business.
My .02 only
I tend to agree. It is troubling what people do in "god name".
However, from personal experience, not all rich churches are money hungry beggars. I've been involved in "rich churches". Not a mega church in the traditional sense but they had money and lots of it. And they've turned around and given away a good portion (much more than the 10%) of their income. Not just to evangelistic outreaches.
The church I was involved with actually donated the majority of funding for a private school, (more than the church with the name on the front of the building.
They had a fund for local first responders families who died in the line of duty. (we're talking a 6 figure check to the fallen's family, no strings or media attached).
I could go on.
The problem is the people and church's who do it right, don't tell anyone, (it is scriptural) and the ones who do it for the wrong reasons tell the whole world.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2938455
...
Reading some of the responses from the more religious followers here, it almost sounds like these churches you attend have this 'brainwashing effect' on you. You truly believe if you give all your worldly possessions to the church, that something wonderful will come from it. ....
Which posts gave you this impression?

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2938714
Which posts gave you this impression?
socal's and lil guppy. Their responses are similar to those individuals who attend one of these mega churches. I have an individual who works for me that sounds just like them. He's one of the Hagee followers. His church even contacted our Accounting Dept. to see if they could do a direct withdrawal from his check.

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2938455
Who me? I haven't been to church in 30 years. I used to go, but got absolutely nothing out of it. I just find it sad that there's so many people who are struggling just to buy the basic necessities in this trying economy, and they still give money to these glutonous organizations. I'm not saying all chuches take advantage of the money they receive. Catholic chuches in particular don't use their funds for the betterment of the priests or nuns who run those facilities. They truly believe in serving God, and using any money they earn to help the less fortunate in their community. It's these Mega Church Corporations that you see every Sunday I have an issue with. Sure they do notable things for their community, and also things abroad. But I'd have to guess they only give back that 10% number we keep talking about, and keep the other 90% for their benefit.
Reading some of the responses from the more religious followers here, it almost sounds like these churches you attend have this 'brainwashing effect' on you. You truly believe if you give all your worldly possessions to the church, that something wonderful will come from it. I guess for you, the church gives you peace of mind and tranquility. So that alone is worth all money you have. If that's why you do it, then good for you. I personally don't get it. I prefer to give my own way - giving direct to the people I feel who need it.
man, did you totally blow over my posts? i was agreeing with you!

Many churches contort what it means to give today. I quit my job 6 months ago at a church, and I was the #2 guy there.... but hated the pastor and his thinking. I ultimately quit because this church was one of the worst ones when it came to what NOT to do as a church. Since my resignation, some members have left, and instead of reaching out to the community and trying to do more good for people in the area, the pastor preached FROM THE PULPIT that the remaining congregants are to each give a 27% tithe!!!!!

That's outright abuse of the bible right there. Outright abuse. I wish the churches had laws with consequences, because I'd have that man thrown into jail for his heresy. But I think he's digging his own grave anyway... if anyone has a brain they'll see through the B.S. in that.

 

[blacktop pete]

catholic churches what a joke. the priests are a bunch of child molesters. i know my lil brother has been screwed up for many years thanks to the catholic priest lending him a helping hand. save your money or give it to worthy charity. men of god what a joke.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2938742
socal's and lil guppy. Their responses are similar to those individuals who attend one of these mega churches. I have an individual who works for me that sounds just like them. He's one of the Hagee followers. His church even contacted our Accounting Dept. to see if they could do a direct withdrawal from his check.
Lil Guppy said "...I dont do the whole 10% rule but I do give something when I can."
Socal said "..I am just showing that I realize that what I have is actually His and I am merely the steward. "
Neither is in any way advocating giving everything they own to the church.
Did your employee's church ask accounting to take 100% of your employee's paycheck?
Giving back to the Church is a Biblical tenet. If you don't believe the Bible, then it stands to reason you won't accept this.
I would point out, however, in hard times more people depend on the church and therefore for believers it is more important than ever to give.
Every church I've been involved with has had 100% accountability with the money it spent. And in each case providing for the poor, spreading the Gospel, and providing for foreign churches has been the bulk of the budget. That's even the case with the "mega" church I now attend when back in country.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2939307
Lil Guppy said "...I dont do the whole 10% rule but I do give something when I can."
Socal said "..I am just showing that I realize that what I have is actually His and I am merely the steward. "
Neither is in any way advocating giving everything they own to the church.
Did your employee's church ask accounting to take 100% of your employee's paycheck?
Giving back to the Church is a Biblical tenet. If you don't believe the Bible, then it stands to reason you won't accept this.
I would point out, however, in hard times more people depend on the church and therefore for believers it is more important than ever to give.
Every church I've been involved with has had 100% accountability with the money it spent. And in each case providing for the poor, spreading the Gospel, and providing for foreign churches has been the bulk of the budget. That's even the case with the "mega" church I now attend when back in country.

There you go again, taking snippets of a conversation and twisting them to suit your agenda. Trust me, I know more about Hagee than I've lead you to believe. This guy is a ripoff from the get go. And you must be a REAL gullible person if you think these mega churches have 100% accountability of where the money goes. Do you as someone that goes to one of these churches feel it's justified for your preacher to live in some multimillion dollar home, fly around in a private plane, have a nice little ranch 'retreat', and drive around in an $80,000 car on the money you contribute? That's what Hagee does.
What kind of reverse thinking or you trying to convey? So someone whose broke goes to church for spiritual advise, yet still gives money to the church he can't afford to give? So do they become one of the people the church helps in trying times? Does the church give these people who've been kicked out of their houses due to foreclosure, some of the money they've given through the years so they can have a roof over their heads and food on the table?
As far as the church pulling money from his account - If the guy wants to let his church take his paycheck, that's his perogative. All he has to do is fill out a direct deposit form with the churches bank account information. But if he does, it'll be for his entire paycheck. Our accounting department isn't going to split his paycheck up and send it to multiple bank accounts. That's not their responsibility.

 

[1journeyman]

Bionic, you claimed SoCal and Lil Guppy said something they clearly did not. Who is trying to twist something to fit their agenda?

 

[jacknjill]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2939421
Bionic, you claimed SoCal and Lil Guppy said something they clearly did not. Who is trying to twist something to fit their agenda?

I agree. The intent of both of their posts was very clear.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2938455
It's these Mega Church Corporations that you see every Sunday I have an issue with.
I don't see them.
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2938455
Reading some of the responses from the more religious followers here, it almost sounds like these churches you attend have this 'brainwashing effect' on you. You truly believe if you give all your worldly possessions to the church, that something wonderful will come from it. I guess for you, the church gives you peace of mind and tranquility. So that alone is worth all money you have. If that's why you do it, then good for you. I personally don't get it. I prefer to give my own way - giving direct to the people I feel who need it.

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2938742
socal's...
I would never give expecting something in return. That makes it "buying" not giving. I give out of respect to God. He is the reason I have something to give. I don't give expecting Him to replenish.
My wife asked me once about the money we give. If someone uses that money for a new Cadillac then should we have given it. My answer was "yes." We are giving the money to God. Our part is over. We made a sacrifice by giving our first fruits to God. What the preacher does with the money consecrated to God is between the preacher and the Creator. If we find that our church is blatently misappropriating money, then we will give in some other way. (like the San Diego Rescue Mission) IIRC, Jesus didn't have much good to say about organized religion either.
Just for the record, I have only followed Christ for a few years but will never go back to the life I led before. There is no way I could begin to express the joy and peace I know because I now know Him. Giving back and helping others is just a small way I can say thanks for everything.
Church is not a building or pastor or denomination. Church is people. People are sinners. I realize that we place money in the hands of people capable of making the same poor judgement as myself. I trust that God is not concerned with money, but my heart.

 

[t316]

Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2939900
I don't see them.
I would never give expecting something in return. That makes it "buying" not giving. I give out of respect to God. He is the reason I have something to give. I don't give expecting Him to replenish.
My wife asked me once about the money we give. If someone uses that money for a new Cadillac then should we have given it. My answer was "yes." We are giving the money to God. Our part is over. We made a sacrifice by giving our first fruits to God. What the preacher does with the money consecrated to God is between the preacher and the Creator. If we find that our church is blatently misappropriating money, then we will give in some other way. (like the San Diego Rescue Mission) IIRC, Jesus didn't have much good to say about organized religion either.
Just for the record, I have only followed Christ for a few years but will never go back to the life I led before. There is no way I could begin to express the joy and peace I know because I now know Him. Giving back and helping others is just a small way I can say thanks for everything.
Church is not a building or pastor or denomination. Church is people. People are sinners. I realize that we place money in the hands of people capable of making the same poor judgement as myself. I trust that God is not concerned with money, but my heart.
Socal....Well said brother...

+10,000
I have just been sitting back watching this thread, laughing at times and about to speak up at others. Having been the Treasurer of my church for 3 yrs., I understand the hardships of the accounting end of it. But I also see the "appearance" of the abuse that some are talking about, especially when referring to the mega churches. Let me ask this, why can't the pastor have a $50K car, if you can? Just because he was called into the ministry, you assume that he must live a humble life in a mobile home, driving a moped?
Oh well, I don't expect an answer, but I tend to agree with socal. If you are not happy with what those that you have entrusted with your money is doing, then donate somewhere else. But by all means, don't use this as a cop-out to hoard your money and/or talents. I cannot stress enough that there is no bigger reward that one will ever receive, other than that which comes from giving to someone else.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by T316
http:///forum/post/2939913
Socal....Well said brother...

+10,000
I have just been sitting back watching this thread, laughing at times and about to speak up at others. Having been the Treasurer of my church for 3 yrs., I understand the hardships of the accounting end of it. But I also see the "appearance" of the abuse that some are talking about, especially when referring to the mega churches. Let me ask this, why can't the pastor have a $50K car, if you can? Just because he was called into the ministry, you assume that he must live a humble life in a mobile home, driving a moped?
Oh well, I don't expect an answer, but I tend to agree with socal. If you are not happy with what those that you have entrusted with your money is doing, then donate somewhere else. But by all means, don't use this as a cop-out to hoard your money and/or talents. I cannot stress enough that there is no bigger reward that one will ever receive, other than that which comes from giving to someone else.
If this pastor is earning his income legally, I have no problems with him driving a $50K car. The issue I have with these individuals running these mega churches, is they don't have other jobs that produce income. The rely solely on the money contributed to their church to sustain their income. So because someone like a John Hagee comes up with a 'new concept' in which to preach his Gospel, he deserves a cut of all the contributions his constituents provide? Cornerstone Church here in San Antonio averages around 15,000 followers. Some of those individuals make over 6 figures, others 7 figures. But you also have the people who are middle and lower income. Everyone of them is expected to tithe the same amount, regardless of how much they make. Hagee rakes a portion of all of this. He lives in an exclusive neighborhood called The Dominion. His house is listed at well over $5 million. He has a 'ranch' about 40 miles outside of San Antonio that he calls his personal retreat. I've never heard of the guy flying commercial, so I can only assume he has a private jet. Basically he has made a business and a conglomeration off of his 'followers' money. Apparently the people who go there have no issue with it, since his domain has grown exponentially over the years. It's just sad that the guy preaches humility and passion for your fellow man, yet he lives in the lap of luxury off those same people.
I refuse to contribute money to any religious organization. Don't trust them. But I do donate my time and efforts to causes I feel more deserving - Goodwill, Habitat For Hunamity, Batter Womens and Childrens Shelter, Jimenez Thanksgiving Turkey Dinner... I personally see where my money and efforts are going when I contribute to these organizations. I don't need someone to tell me that 'if I donate to God, everything good will come to you in due time'. If God wants my money, he'll have to show me some physical proof he exists before he gets it.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2940054
If God wants my money, he'll have to show me some physical proof he exists before he gets it.
And there-in lies the problem, you are talking two totally different points of view. No offense, but if that is your view of religion then you'll never understand why people give to christian organizations, churches, mega-churches or whatever.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by socal57che
http:///forum/post/2939900
I would never give expecting something in return. That makes it "buying" not giving. I give out of respect to God. He is the reason I have something to give. I don't give expecting Him to replenish.
My wife asked me once about the money we give. If someone uses that money for a new Cadillac then should we have given it. My answer was "yes." We are giving the money to God. Our part is over. We made a sacrifice by giving our first fruits to God. What the preacher does with the money consecrated to God is between the preacher and the Creator. If we find that our church is blatently misappropriating money, then we will give in some other way. (like the San Diego Rescue Mission) IIRC, Jesus didn't have much good to say about organized religion either.
Just for the record, I have only followed Christ for a few years but will never go back to the life I led before. There is no way I could begin to express the joy and peace I know because I now know Him. Giving back and helping others is just a small way I can say thanks for everything.
Church is not a building or pastor or denomination. Church is people. People are sinners. I realize that we place money in the hands of people capable of making the same poor judgement as myself. I trust that God is not concerned with money, but my heart.
At some point, you do have to judge what you are putting your money into. Because in some ways bionicarm is right, there are good speakers out there entirely there as a money making motive running a church.

 

[dcoyle11]

It’s all about the relationship not the religion… Christians do not be gullible or stupid.. Just use the mind the Lord has given you be discerning, go to church, and read the Word and you cannot go wrong in your giving.
As for the original post give what you feel comfortable giving and have faith that the Lord will provide for you.. never give with a grieved heart, but a joyous trusting one.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2938455
Catholic chuches in particular don't use their funds for the betterment of the priests or nuns who run those facilities. They truly believe in serving God, and using any money they earn to help the less fortunate in their community.
You obviously have never been to the Vatican or looked at the cost involved with a lot of those catholic cathedrals. They are no different in many ways that the TV corporate churchs you claim to dislike.
You criticize the lifestyle hagee and other evangelist maintain. Yet these people, write books, work on television, and receive royalties from both...They are no different than say the author of Harry Potter, or Oprah Winfrey. Those folks collect money off the "work" they do, why Can't Hagee and other evangelists. You hold a double standard for them and believe just because the "serve god" they should live the life of a pauper. Yet you claim the Catholic church does not do the same. You obviously have no clue and are just showing your hatred for organized religion. Do us a favor and just state you hate anything God/religion oriented and leave it at that. Don't try to justify your own dislikes based off the lifestyles of others. Especially when it is clearly obvious you have no clue how Tithing works, where it goes for the most part, and the clear purpose behind it.
You spout off several Charities, yet I can poke similar holes in all of them. But since these are the charities YOU donate to it makes them ok. It makes you feel good to donate to them because YOU believe your money is going to a someone that will benefit from it, yet you have no idea truly. for all you know your donation may pay the salary of the CEO at Goodwill, which incidentally is around 500,000 dollars per year. Shouldn't this guy live a meager life as well? I mean, after all, Goodwill is supposed to help people that need it, not pay someone 500,000 per year. Is Goodwill going to see that I get my money back if I lose my job and or home as you suggest the Church should? I can guarantee you I will receive more help from my church than I would goodwill.
The bottom line, give where you want to to further your fellow man in the best way YOU deem proper. But DO NOT BELITTLE OTHERS that give in other places you disagree with. As all Charitable organizations, be they religious or not, are paying someone a ridiculous salary to run things.....One is not better than the other, they are just different.