Are you still tithing during the recession?

[darthtang aw]

The following religious charities devote more than 80% of their budgets to their programs and services. That means that less than 20% of your dollars are going to such costs as fundraising and administration, including the salary of the CEO. This is a better percentage than any of the organizations you listed that you donate to.
Christ for humanity
Our lady's inn
Crossroads Center.

 

[shyfish]

Hi,
I might regret this, but...This is not a religious site, it is a saltwater fish site. Religious debates can get heated. here is my personal e-mail shalom.613@live.com
If you just like your chosen religion, and don't care what scripture says LEAVE ME ALONE.
If you want scripture feel free to e-mail me privately. I open the door. be forewarned...I am Jewish, tithing is as christians call it an "OLD TESTAMENT" commandment. There is absolutely nothing in the "new testament" about tithing. So my perspective on tithing is all "old testament (Tanach)"
If you think you got something in the new...go for it. I am happy to discus scripture but not religion.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2940130
You obviously have never been to the Vatican or looked at the cost involved with a lot of those catholic cathedrals. They are no different in many ways that the TV corporate churchs you claim to dislike.
You criticize the lifestyle hagee and other evangelist maintain. Yet these people, write books, work on television, and receive royalties from both...They are no different than say the author of Harry Potter, or Oprah Winfrey. Those folks collect money off the "work" they do, why Can't Hagee and other evangelists. You hold a double standard for them and believe just because the "serve god" they should live the life of a pauper. Yet you claim the Catholic church does not do the same. You obviously have no clue and are just showing your hatred for organized religion. Do us a favor and just state you hate anything God/religion oriented and leave it at that. Don't try to justify your own dislikes based off the lifestyles of others. Especially when it is clearly obvious you have no clue how Tithing works, where it goes for the most part, and the clear purpose behind it.
You spout off several Charities, yet I can poke similar holes in all of them. But since these are the charities YOU donate to it makes them ok. It makes you feel good to donate to them because YOU believe your money is going to a someone that will benefit from it, yet you have no idea truly. for all you know your donation may pay the salary of the CEO at Goodwill, which incidentally is around 500,000 dollars per year. Shouldn't this guy live a meager life as well? I mean, after all, Goodwill is supposed to help people that need it, not pay someone 500,000 per year. Is Goodwill going to see that I get my money back if I lose my job and or home as you suggest the Church should? I can guarantee you I will receive more help from my church than I would goodwill.
The bottom line, give where you want to to further your fellow man in the best way YOU deem proper. But DO NOT BELITTLE OTHERS that give in other places you disagree with. As all Charitable organizations, be they religious or not, are paying someone a ridiculous salary to run things.....One is not better than the other, they are just different.
I will agree with you that any charitable organization can be corrupt, and can take advantage of the money given to them. I wouldn't doubt they do. However, the main issue I have with these religious conglomerates, whether it's the Vatican, these mega churches, or the small church down the street, is they use the power of religion and the fear of God to 'persuade' people to give them their money. You should donate to the church knowing your money is going to help someone who is less fortunate than you. Not because you're being told 'God says you should do it.', or 'you will live a life of eternal damnation' if you don't hand your money over to the church. And why do these churches require this minimal tithing amount if it's supposed to be your choice whether you give or not? Please don't lecture me on the art of tithing. I grew up Catholic, and am very aware on the amount of money my mother has given to her church over the 60 years she's attended it.
Most of my charitable contribution are my time. I spend hours helping the less fortunate and local organizations. If I give money, it's me personally buying materials needed for projects, or food for whoever needs it. I don't believe in blindly handing my money over to a group of people where I really don't know where it's being used.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2940147
You should donate to the church knowing your money is going to help someone who is less fortunate than you... ...or 'you will live a life of eternal damnation' if you don't hand your money over to the church.
You're absolutely right, but as a whole, I think you'll find (if you actually were involved) that most churches handle their money quite well. Although there are many that don't, unfortunately they're the loudest, because that is their stream of income.
Btw God did say to give.
Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2940147
I don't believe in blindly handing my money over to a group of people where I really don't know where it's being used.
Neither do I.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2940147
Not because you're being told 'God says you should do it.', or 'you will live a life of eternal damnation' if you don't hand your money over to the church. And why do these churches require this minimal tithing amount if it's supposed to be your choice whether you give or not?
You grew up Catholic, their rules and laws are vastly different than most of Christianity. It gets thrown in the category, but they are different in many ways. Tithing being one of them. I have never been told I will experience eternal damnation if I do not Tithe. And I have only been asked to Tithe what I feel comfortable Tithing, not a set amount.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2940054
If this pastor is earning his income legally, I have no problems with him driving a $50K car. The issue I have with these individuals running these mega churches, is they don't have other jobs that produce income. The rely solely on the money contributed to their church to sustain their income. ....
At the risk of being ridiculed for correcting you...
Do a quick search on any online bookseller for books written by Pastor Hagee. Then tell me he has no other source of income...
Pastors of mega churches are highly sought for speaking engagements, conferences, etc. as well.

 

[yearofthenick]

TO EVERYONE:
You all have your own opinions about tithing and what it means, so hopefully this post will help you out.
The first four books of the new testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were an account of Jesus' life, death and resurrection. Acts is like the sequel to the movie... the book that described what happened after all that. It's pretty cool when you read it to see how the early church was formed as God originally intended it. Here's a passage about the first gathering of the new believers. In this passage alone we can see many aspects of the early church that have been forgotten...
Acts 2:42-47
42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Verse 45 is what I'm talking about. Let me clarify the verse by saying that NOT ALL people sold EVERYTHING they had and lived in complete poverty. Think of it more like a yard sale... people looked at their lives and sold their exceess, giving the money to the church. When it says "They gave to anyone as he had need" that's exactly what happened. There was NO POVERTY in this church. That's the key.
Most church leaders tend to look at what other churches are doing, look at how the word 'tithe' has evolved, and allow it to continue to evolve into what churches make it, but that couldn't be more wrong. The tithe in the New Testament church shows that money given should be turned around and given away to those in need. That simple. We shouldn't use it to absorb costs that maintain an enormous church. Think of the crystal cathedral... it's all windows, and those windows get cleaned sometimes weekly. That must cost hundreds of thousands annually. If they had gone with a less flashy sanctuary, maybe they could have used that money to reach out to the poor in that area. Also, the Crystal Cathedral is AMIDST a very poor area. They have brick walls and iron gates and 24/7 security patrolling the place... that isn't a church! A church that looks like a mighty castle in the midst of peasants? Tell me when Jesus would have ever set foot in a place like that? Absolutely not! He was living with the losers because no one else would. Jesus was the only truly non-discriminatory ministry leader - and he believed everyone should be loved and respected equally, which is why he spent so much time with the less fortunate - this isn't the case today and it's sad.
If churches truly did have a heart for every person, there wouldn't be any poverty. I wish Crystal Cathedral would sell their gaudy sanctuary and use the money to keep kids in their same neighbrohood off the streets... pay off mortgages for single moms who have 6 kids... that's what the early church did. They gave to those in need. That's the purpose of the tithe.
We see this even in the Old Testament. Deuteronomy states pretty clearly that the tithe should be ten percent, given for the glory of God, and then given at the end of the year to those in need.
We need to be very careful where we give our tithe... if we give our tithe to a church that completely absorbs it internally, then our tithe is in vain. Bionicarm is right in saying that churches abuse money. It happens. And good stuff happens too. It's what you get when you're imperfect people and are in charge of church. But acts is pretty clear. I can provide more verses if needed.
Most of you are right about rich pastors though... they do receive a LOT of money off royalties for books they've written. Joel Osteen does not receive a dime through the payroll at his 40,000 member church in Texas. He gets all his money from royalties... and there's nothing wrong with that. He wrote the book so he should get the money when someone buys it. That has nothing to do with church. However, he should tithe on the money he makes to the church. For all I know, Joel does.
Last thought: Tithing should ultimately be a response back to God for the things you've been given. If you believe God provides you with the things you have, you should thank God by giving some of it to the church - ultimately to those less fortunate than you.... hence the tithe like in Acts 2:45. That's kind of the thought process behind it all.
Hope this helps.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2940265
At the risk of being ridiculed for correcting you...
Do a quick search on any online bookseller for books written by Pastor Hagee. Then tell me he has no other source of income...
Pastors of mega churches are highly sought for speaking engagements, conferences, etc. as well.
I have no doubt he has books, speaking engagements, etc. But of course all those stemmed from his creation of this mega church he runs. But knowing the man personally, I can tell you that's not the only source of his income, and where he obtained his massive wealth. If it weren't for the contributions of his followers from the onset, he wouldn't be where he is today.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2940449
I have no doubt he has books, speaking engagements, etc. But of course all those stemmed from his creation of this mega church he runs. But knowing the man personally, I can tell you that's not the only source of his income, and where he obtained his massive wealth. If it weren't for the contributions of his followers from the onset, he wouldn't be where he is today.
And it if weren't for the contibutions of those better off than the less fortunate and poor, the CEO of Goodwill wouldn't make 500,000 a year. What is your point. That the world isn't fair?
You have commented that some churches use fear of God to collect Tithes. I can point out Charitable organizations that use the same fear to collect for themselves. Feed the Children is a good example, how much money does it cost to make and air that video of starved kids in a foreign country...just to collect 23 cents a day from you.....
Private charities are no worse or better than church tithing ......that is the bottomline truth. As I stated before, you have an issue about religion and its vercity that is fine. But don't place a charity on a pedestal and try to claim it is better than church tithing as it isn't. The majority of it is the same as Hagee, and Haggee is the exception to the rule...most small churches do not have a pastor with a huge house and 50,000 dollar car.

 

[jimmy 4]

I think the bible is a good book and all, but I don't trust the people who wrote/translated it. For instance there were no apples in the Garden of Eden because they didn't exist in the area at that time. The Romans may have changed it because their word for apple was the same as their word for devil. It was probably a fig or something. So if people are willing to change as small of a thing as what kind of fruit gave man his shame then I have to question what else has been changed or left out in the bible. I'm not saying that there is no god; I just don't trust organizations like churches. They are similar to government. The bible is the law book, the churches are the tax collectors and schools, and the fear of god is the law enforcement.
I wish the vengeful god would come back and treat the world like Sodom and Gomorrah. I can't imangine that those two cities were be any more sinful than 90% of the world today.

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by Jimmy 4
http:///forum/post/2940464
I think the bible is a good book and all, but I don't trust the people who wrote/translated it. For instance there were no apples in the Garden of Eden because they didn't exist in the area at that time. The Romans may have changed it because their word for apple was the same as their word for devil. It was probably a fig or something.
Actually, some think it was a pomegranate.
The Garden of Eden could very well have had apples in it. I mean, if it's the place where God hung out, He probably had all kinds of stuff there that we've never even heard of.
But to correct your statement, the bible never said 'apple'... it always says 'fruit' and that it's from a tree. That's all we really know about the forbidden fruit.
Originally Posted by Jimmy 4
http:///forum/post/2940464
So if people are willing to change as small of a thing as what kind of fruit gave man his shame then I have to question what else has been changed or left out in the bible.
Again, I'm not sure if they changed the word 'fruit' but I do know that when the bible has been translated into english, that thousands of scholars and religious leaders have worked collaboratively in doing it. Even with this ridiculous form of redundancy, we still have a lot of different translations (NIV, TNIV, ESV, KJV, NLT, AMP to name a few).
Originally Posted by Jimmy 4
http:///forum/post/2940464
I'm not saying that there is no god; I just don't trust organizations like churches. They are similar to government. The bible is the law book, the churches are the tax collectors and schools, and the fear of god is the law enforcement.
This is such an excellent representation! I honestly really love this analogy because, unfortunately for us, it's becoming more and more true these days. At the same time, more and more people are rising up who are beciming more dissatisfied with the state of the church and it's liturgy, Christendom, and Catholic-based laws. More people (myself included) are moving away from the evolved church and are seeking churches who want to be the kind of church there was in the book of Acts.
Originally Posted by Jimmy 4
http:///forum/post/2940464
I wish the vengeful god would come back and treat the world like Sodom and Gomorrah. I can't imangine that those two cities were be any more sinful than 90% of the world today.
We'll see how it all plays out in the second coming.
P.S. : Yes, i agree... #5 IS alive.

 

[bionicarm]

Here's another example of 'Reverend abuse'...
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/MYS..._html6560.html

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Jimmy 4
http:///forum/post/2940464
I think the bible is a good book and all, but I don't trust the people who wrote/translated it. For instance there were no apples in the Garden of Eden because they didn't exist in the area at that time. The Romans may have changed it because their word for apple was the same as their word for devil. It was probably a fig or something. So if people are willing to change as small of a thing as what kind of fruit gave man his shame then I have to question what else has been changed or left out in the bible. I'm not saying that there is no god; I just don't trust organizations like churches. They are similar to government. The bible is the law book, the churches are the tax collectors and schools, and the fear of god is the law enforcement.
I wish the vengeful god would come back and treat the world like Sodom and Gomorrah. I can't imangine that those two cities were be any more sinful than 90% of the world today.
Jimmy I would encourage you to read the Bible for yourself. Study the history of the Bible, the origins of the literature, etc.
From your statement it is unfortunately clear that you have not done this and our missing out on a good bit of info. The word "apple" for instance, does not appear in the Creation/Fall story of Genesis.. It was only later that the word apple began to be used instead of what the Bible actually says.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/2940507
Here's another example of 'Reverend abuse'...
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/MYS..._html6560.html
Here is a story of a soldier abusing his wife; Is our military bad?
Here is a story of a teacher abusing her student; Should we abolish schools?
Here is a story of a police officer abusing a criminal; Shall we abolish the law?
Here is a story of a Dr. abusing his patient; Shall we stop medical research?
Here is a story of an investment house swindling their clients; Should we close Wall Street?
Here is a story of a charity robbing their donors; Should we quit giving?
No one is saying all churches are perfect Bionic. You seem to be trying to morph the thread completely afield of where it began.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2940524
No one is saying all churches are perfect Bionic. You seem to be trying to morph the thread completely afield of where it began.
I think this was his point all a long.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2940562
I think this was his point all a long.
Of course it was. How can it not be for someone that has such disdain for religion?

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2940524
Here is a story of a soldier abusing his wife; Is our military bad?
Here is a story of a teacher abusing her student; Should we abolish schools?
Here is a story of a police officer abusing a criminal; Shall we abolish the law?
Here is a story of a Dr. abusing his patient; Shall we stop medical research?
Here is a story of an investment house swindling their clients; Should we close Wall Street?
Here is a story of a charity robbing their donors; Should we quit giving?
No one is saying all churches are perfect Bionic. You seem to be trying to morph the thread completely afield of where it began.

Great analogies journey. Unfortunately, this report is more the norm than the exception. You just choose to ignore it.
Morphing the thread? No. Just showing all those who are adament about tithing, regardless what their economic situation is, where their hard-earned money goes.
Based on the findings of this thread, it appears the devout religious sect has no problems giving their money to the church, regardless what they're economic situations are.

 

[yearofthenick]

man I've totally forgotten about the economic times... now is the best time to give to the church... during bad economic times.

 

[jimmy 4]

Yeah I dont really know much about the bible. I've never read it. I just go by what I remember from church school, and just like highschool all you have to do to get through church school is show up. So like wikipedia im not a reliable source. The reason I can't fully trust organized religion is that I have no faith in man.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2940625
man I've totally forgotten about the economic times... now is the best time to give to the church... during bad economic times.
This is where I don't understand your logic. If people are struggling just to pay their bills, why is it a good time to donate to a church? That is the point of this thread. I understand you get this spiritual rise and feeling of self worth when you do contribute to a church's cause. But is that feeling worth the possibility of losing your house, not putting food on your table, or having just the essentials needed to live? Spirituality is a wonderful thing, and can be the determining factor in whether some people choose to continue to live. But it doesn't pay the bills. That's where I don't see how a church would even accept tithing from someone who can't even keep up a quality standard of living. If they do, then they are just being hypocritical of their intended cause.