Ban Santa and the Easter bunny!!

dogstar

dogstar

Active Member
Tizzo, with respect, You started the thread.....Ppl. on both sides get bent in these threads much to easy.
You aswered your own question "" It's fun, it's magical etc..."" There are many ppl. of other faith in this country who do not celebrate Christmas and dont teach their children any of that Santa stuff so Im just trying to understand your point. "" My point is, how can people sit there and act all offended because Jesus, who they DO NOT believe in, is being represented.... ""( and here is where I add my point,.... buy the Goverment ).
The debate is not about trying to stop anyone from freely practicing their faith.
As I said in the other thread...I am a Christain too but that should not matter here.
I try to be a good Christain, not to judge, do unto others, give unto Ceaser..ect.
But I also try to be a good Amercian....to understand what that means....Some ppl. feel you cant be a good Americian unless your a Christain and to me thats wrong....
So this debate about the Goverments involvment in respecting one religion over all others will go on.. if thats what the tree or religion in the school means or not and bringing in the history and forefathers and numbers of who is and who aint and others bringing up the constitution and the Bill of Rights will go on....
Time often solves these issues for better.
Merry Christmas...
 
happyvac

happyvac

Member
I don't think you should ever "tell" your kid...I figured it out when I was like 5 when I found out that magic didn't exist. They'll figure it out on their own...don't keep them sheltered forever.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Kid do figure it out, and then pretend to continue to believe so that parents will still keep laying on the presents. LOL
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
Lol, as real as Jesus.
I don’t believe that there are any surviving Roman records that refer to Jesus…then again, it’s not like the Romans ever took note of important people...
Jesus wasn't an "important" person to the Romans.. Jesus taught to respect authority, pay your taxes, not to murder, forgive, etc... The Romans were too busy dodging knives and trying to keep order to worry about documenting a "teacher". It was not until the death of Christ that the Romans took notice as to what was taking place.
 
scubadoo

scubadoo

Active Member
No SAnta......never...these are old but I still get a chuckle when I read them...I cleaned them up a little...ho ho ho
Dear Santa,
I don't know if you can do this, but for Christmas, I'd like for my mommy and daddy to get back together. Please see what you can do.
Love, Eddie.
Dear Eddie,
What -- and ruin that hot affair your dad's still having with the babysitter? He's banging her like a screen door in a hurricane, son! Let me get you some nice Legos instead.
Santa.
Dear Santa,
I wud like a kool toy space ranjur fer Xmas. Iv ben a gud boy all yeer.
Yer Frend, BiLLY
Dear Billy,
Nice spelling. You're on your way to a career in lawn care. How about I send you a book so you can learn to read and write? I'm giving your older brother the space ranger. At least HE can spell!
Santa
Dear Santa,
I have been a good girl all year, and the only thing I ask for is peace and joy in the world for everybody!
Love, Sarah
Dear Sarah,
Your parents smoked pot when they had you, didn't they?
Santa
Dear Santa,
I want a new bike, a Playstation, a train, some G.I. Joes, a dog, a drum kit, a pony and a tuba.
Love, Francis
Dear Francis,
Who names their kid "Francis" nowadays? I bet you're gay.
Santa
Dear Santa,
I left milk and cookies for you under the tree, and I left carrots for your reindeer outside the back door.
Love, Susan
Dear Susan,
Milk gives me the runs and carrots make the deer fart in my face when riding in the sleigh. You want to do me a favor? Leave me a bottle of scotch.
Santa
Dear Santa,
What do you do the other 364 days of the year? Are you busy making toys?
Your friend, Thomas
Dear Thomas,
All the toys are made in China. I have a condo in Vegas, where I spend most of my time making low-budget

[hr]
films. I unwind by drinking myself silly and squeezing the butts of cocktail waitresses while losing money at the craps table. Hey, you wanted to know.
Santa
Dear Santa,
I really really want a puppy this year. Please, please, please, PLEASE, PLEASE, could! I! have one?
Timmy
Timmy,
That whiney begging crap may work with your folks, but that crap doesn't work with me. You're getting a sweater again.
Santa
Dearest Santa,
We don't have a chimney in our house, how do you get into our home?
Love, Marky
Mark,
First, stop calling yourself "Marky", that's why you're getting your butt whipped at school. Second, you don't live in a house, you live in a low-rent apartment complex. Third, I get inside your pad just like all the burglars do, through your bedroom window.
Sweet Dreams, Santa
 
dogstar

dogstar

Active Member
The earliest know documents that mention Jesus is by a jewish historian.
Josephus ben Matthias , born in 37 CE
Search him if you wish.
Most history scholars in the feild beleive Josephus confirms the accuracy of the Canonical Gospels (and Acts) in the following recollections:
The time frame that the Gospels place Jesus in,
Jesus had a reputation for teaching wisdom,
Jesus was believed to have performed miracles,
Jesus had a brother named James,
Some Jewish leaders were involved with Jesus' execution,
Pilate was Prefect and had Jesus executed,
Jesus was executed by crucifixion,
Jesus was known as a messianic figure,
Jesus was the founder of Christianity,
Acts' portrayal of James as the leader of the Jerusalem Church is confirmed,
The existence of early Jewish persecution of Christians in Jerusalem, and,
That the early Christians reported that Jesus was raised from the dead as foretold by the Jewish prophets (based on Eisler's reconstruction and Mason's comments on linguistic similarities).
 
scubadoo

scubadoo

Active Member
I belive many will argue that it is the governemnt sponsored religious symbols placed on government owned property they are agaisnt and/or offended by.
Some that argue this still beleive in Christ...and maybe Santa too.
I really do not thiink most are offended...they simply do not want the "symbols" on government property.
They probably have too much time on their hands.
I'm not certain I could draw an equal coorelation between a fictional charcter with no religious ties...to Jesus CHrist and the religious association. I can see one promoting Santa...while not believing in Christ. SAnta, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy really have nothing to do with religion as they are presented/promoted to children.
I understand that a case can be made that promoting one fictional character...and being offended at those promoting Jesus may seem to nbe hypocritical..as the ones offended beleive Christ to be a fictional character. However ar , I'm not sure you can place all in the same category of fictional characters. One is religious...the other non-religious as presented/promoted to kids.
I'm not sure this makes sense...its late I'm tired.
I am a Christian...just trying to be objective and look at it from the other side.
JMO
 
reefbabe

reefbabe

Member
It would be funny if all time was based on a mythical character, lol. B.C.-A.D.
Also, I think it's great Birdy, that you allow Santa to ONLY fill your children's stockings (same rule in my house). Santa can sometimes take away the true celebration of Christmas. We like to have a reconstruction of the birth of Christ by using a little play toy model of the nativity that the kids have a constent access to "play" with during the season. I think it helps to keep their minds focused...plus, they like to get things just right when acting it out, so they ask lots of questions!
 
farmboy

farmboy

Active Member
I like the idea of playing with the nativity.

We are sticking with: It is a BIG birthday party for Jesus! He was the best gift EVER! My kids like the idea of getting the presents, though.
 
T

tizzo

Guest
Scooba Doo,
I started this topic as an irony not necessarily a debate. You know if Christ and santa are both fictional then we should ban santa as well as Christ...
But of all the posts (that stayed on topic) yours makes the most sense to me. Santa is a cartoon character while christ is a religous figure. So, I thank you for sifting through all the mumbo jumbo and putting it simply.
But I am thinking...if I were an athiest, and I saw a nativity scene in somebodies front yard while their neighbor had a big blow up santa, shouldn't they both affect me the same?? If I am raising my kids to believe that God and Jesus are fictional characters that people, who have to justify their existence like to place their faith, believe in and that he doesn't pertain to us and our household... then, taking it one step further and raising them to believe that Christianity is for the week minded, niave, brainwashed people, and then turn around and, for the fun of it, explain how santa comes around etc etc...
Would simply seeing the figures still promote religion, do you think?? I know he IS a religious figure, but if you teach your kids he is fictional from the start, is he still a threat, IYO...
 
T

thomas712

Guest
Originally Posted by Jmick
Lol, as real as Jesus.
I don’t believe that there are any surviving Roman records that refer to Jesus…then again, it’s not like the Romans ever took note of important people...

It seems that such independent corroboration does, indeed, exist. Tantalizing scraps of evidence have come down to us in the writings of ancient historians like Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius.
The Greco-Roman Sources
1) Tacitus
The first Roman historian to mention Christ is Tacitus, who wrote his last significant work, the Annals, around A.D. 115. In this treatise, Tacitus describes the great fire of Rome during the reign of Nero and the emperor's subsequent persecution of the Christians there. He states:
"Nero created scapegoats and subjected to the most refined tortures those whom the common people called 'Christians'....Their name comes from Christ, who, during the reign of Tiberius, had been executed by the procurator Pontius Pilate" (Annals 15:44).
At first glance, this is an impressive passage for the Christian apologist. But let's dig a little deeper. Where did Tacitus get his information about Jesus' execution? It is doubtful that he was quoting an official Roman document from the period because, as scholars are quick to point out, he mistakenly calls Pilate a procurator when he was actually a prefect.
Perhaps Tacitus received it from his close friend Pliny the Younger, who may well have shared the knowledge he had acquired from contact with Christians in Asia Minor. But even if this is the case, the most we can say is that Tacitus is simply repeating what Christians of his day were saying about their origins. There is not much basis here for concluding that he was presenting independent testimony about the historical figure of Jesus.
2) Suetonius
In his biography of the emperor Claudius, written around A.D. 120, Suetonius writes about the expulsion of the Jews from Rome in A.D. 49. He states: "Since the Jews were constantly causing disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome" (Claudius 25:4).
Chrestus was a popular misspelling of the Greek Christos (Christ). Some scholars believe that Suetonius may have used a source that understood "Chrestus" to be Jesus. But he obviously misunderstood the police records, thinking that "Chrestus" was the name of some Jewish slave who became a ringleader during the riots of A.D. 49. Suetonius' account makes for interesting reading. But, again, it is far from being an independent witness to the historical Jesus.
3) Pliny the Younger
Pliny the Younger was proconsul of Bythinia, in Asia Minor, between A.D. 111 and 113. Pliny wrote a letter to the Emperor Trajan asking for advice on how to deal with the rapid growth of the Christian community in his area. Among other things, he describes the Christian custom of holding weekly meetings to sing praises "to Christ as to a god" (Letter 10. 96).
This passage is significant, because it is the only non-Christian source that tells us that Christians treated Christ as a "god." But Pliny is merely describing an element of Christian worship. His comments say nothing about the historicity of Jesus.
4) Lucian
The Roman satirist Lucian of Samosata lived from A.D. 115-200. In The Passing of Perigrinus, Lucian mocks the Christian life, describing Christians as those who worship "that crucified sophist [Jesus] himself," and live "under his laws." Again, we learn only what some educated people from the second century may have heard about Jesus. Lucian is definitely not an independent source of historical knowledge concerning Jesus of Nazareth.
 
T

thomas712

Guest
5) Josephus
Perhaps the most significant "witness" to the life of Jesus in ancient literature is in the writings of Joseph ben Matthias, better known as Flavius Josephus (named after his patrons, the Flavian emperors Vespasian, Titus and Domitian). Josephus lived from A.D. 37 to 100, and wrote two famous works: The Jewish War, which was initially drafted in Aramaic, and then translated into Greek five to ten years after the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. His second work, Jewish Antiquities, was completed more than a decade later. This work was much longer, and recounts Jewish history from creation to the Jewish revolt against Rome (A.D. 66-70).
Contrary to what many Christians may think, Josephus does not give us much information about Jesus. In his 28 volumes of Jewish history, there are only two passages that mention Jesus. And even these references are difficult to assess. The trouble is that Josephus' writings were preserved for posterity by Christians (the Jews disowned him as a traitor). The texts available to us today contain statements that were added later by Christian editors. This is clearly seen in the famous Testimonium Flavianum, "the testimony of Josephus," found in Antiquities 18:63-64. It reads as follows:
At that time there appeared Jesus, a wise man, if indeed someone should call him a man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. He was the Messiah. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. For he appeared to them on the third day, living again, just as the divine prophets had spoken of these and countless other wondrous things about him. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out.
Scholars of Josephus have been divided over the authenticity of this entire passage, although both sides acknowledge the obvious Christian additions (highlighted in italics above).
On one hand, some scholars argue for the genuineness of the passage (without the italicized parts). They stress that the language and grammar are typical of Josephus' style and language.
The other school of thought argues that the passage is bogus. They point to the clear Christian redaction. But they also emphasize that there are only three Greek manuscripts of Book 18 of The Antiquities – the earliest dating only to the 11th century – and the text of these is often in doubt.
The other well-known passage in Antiquities is the reference to "James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ" (Antiquities 20:200). Scholars generally agree that this is authentic Josephus. They do so for several reasons: First, this narrative is found in the major Greek manuscript tradition of Antiquities without variation. Second, Christian editors would not refer to James as "the brother of Jesus." Instead, they would use the reverential phrase, "the brother of the Lord" (see, for example, Paul's description of James in Galatians 1:19).
Third, the famous fourth-century church historian Eusebius also quotes this passage in his Ecclesiastical History (2.23.22). Interestingly, Eusebius does not quote the Testimonium Flavianum.
 
T

thomas712

Guest
How Do We Know About Jesus?
The most we can say, then, is that Josephus is our only independent source of information about the historical Jesus. And, as we have seen, only one of his brief references to Jesus is generally recognized by the scholarly community.
So let's ask again the questions we posed at the beginning. Do these passages provide any real basis for a knowledge of Jesus as a historical figure? I think you will agree that the answer is "No." More importantly, should we use these passages as a primary means by which we bolster our faith in Jesus of Nazareth? Again, I hope you would agree that the answer is an emphatic "No!"
Our faith in Jesus Christ is not based on a few brief texts in the writings of Jewish and Greco-Roman historians – however fascinating they may be. How do we know about Jesus? Primarily through the most reliable witnesses, the Gospels – the great theological histories of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Some Christians may be disappointed that all the substantial evidence for Jesus comes from Christian sources. If you are disappointed, here are a couple of questions you might want to consider:
First, why would Jesus leave any traces on the pages of secular history? He was virtually unknown – an traveling teacher who enjoyed limited popularity within a small community in a remote province on the eastern edge of the Roman empire. In the words of John P. Meier, professor of New Testament at the Catholic University of America in Washington D.C.: "Jesus was a marginal Jew leading a marginal movement in a marginal province of a vast Roman empire. The wonder is that any learned Jew or pagan would have known or referred to him at all in the first or second centuries" (A Marginal Jew, p. 56).
Second, does the fact that our evidence for Jesus comes from Christian sources mean that the evidence is too biased to be trusted? New Testament scholar Dr. R.T. France, former principal of Wycliffe Hall, Oxford University, gives us an excellent answer:
The Gospel writers tell us about Jesus because they think he is worth telling about, and they want others to follow him as well. But what worthwhile history or biography has ever been written by people who have no personal interest in what they write? Why should a 'bias' in favor of the subject render the history unreliable? Surely those who had been captivated by Jesus might be expected to take pains to pass on truth about him (Jesus 2000, p. 15).
Just to name a few
Thomas
 
jacksdad

jacksdad

Member
Originally Posted by bigarn
Please understand I will not start a debate ..... but IMO youth should enjoy the wonders of youth, and yes that includes Santa, Easter Bunny, and even the tooth fairy for that matter. They'll have enough "reality" to deal with for the rest of thier lives. Do what you want, but that's just how I feel.
I couldn't have said it any better myself. We tend to make children into little adults and it's not fair of us to do that.
Thomas:
Always the scholar!
Right on the money as well.
Bob
 
T

tizzo

Guest
Holy Cow thomas!! What DON'T you learn!!

Farmboy..I'll be honest, the only reason I wanted to "stay on topic" is cause I cannot keep up with all the politics and drama that people can pull from different sources. I have only been a Christian for about 5 years now, so I haven't been able to learn all the "ammnition" that it entails, being said, I do not care to learn it either. Since I was pretty much an athiest my entire life and my best friend was a Christian, I know how futile all that info is...
Heck, I still don't even know how a Christmas tree and religion are related. Never even knew they WERE til these topics, so see it's all a matter of perspective til your taught.
 
darth tang

darth tang

Active Member
The tree has a history of causing conflict. In 1851 a Pasto in Ohio decorated a tree inside his church. Many of the Church goers were offended by this as it was a "pagan" ritual historically. Christmas Trees were NOT used during colonial times as it was viewed as wrong and against the teachings of GOD.
I find it funny that many schools have moved away from calling Christmas, Christmas. Many are now calling it the Winter Solstice. Which is a Pagan religion holiday for the ancient Druids.
Some history on Christmas trees and their origins:
Not having evergreen trees, the ancient Egyptians considered the palm tree to symbolize resurrection. They decorated their homes with its branches during the winter solstice. "The first decorating of an evergreen tree began with the heathen Greeks and their worship of their god Adonia, who allegedly was brought back to life by the serpent Aessulapius after having been slain."
The ancient Pagan Romans decorated their "trees with bits of metal and replicas of their god, Bacchus [a fertility god]. They also placed 12 candles on the tree in honor of their sun god" 2 Their mid-winter festival of Saturnalia started on DEC-17 and often lasted until a few days after the Solstice.
In Northern Europe, the ancient Druids tied fruit and attached candles to evergreen tree branches, in honor of their god Woden. Trees were viewed as symbolizing eternal life. This is the deity after which Wednesday was named. The trees joined holly, mistletoe, the wassail bowl and the Yule log as symbols of the season. All predated Christianity.
But everyone is told the Christmas tree is strictly a religious symbol for Christianity. I find this humorous as History proves otherwise.
 
T

tizzo

Guest
So then, from a Cristian religion perspective...Why DO we put up and decorate pine trees?? Sincerely I am asking, not to start a debate about it...
 
scubadoo

scubadoo

Active Member
Originally Posted by Tizzo
Scooba Doo,
I started this topic as an irony not necessarily a debate. You know if Christ and santa are both fictional then we should ban santa as well as Christ...
But of all the posts (that stayed on topic) yours makes the most sense to me. Santa is a cartoon character while christ is a religous figure. So, I thank you for sifting through all the mumbo jumbo and putting it simply.
But I am thinking...if I were an athiest, and I saw a nativity scene in somebodies front yard while their neighbor had a big blow up santa, shouldn't they both affect me the same?? If I am raising my kids to believe that God and Jesus are fictional characters that people, who have to justify their existence like to place their faith, believe in and that he doesn't pertain to us and our household... then, taking it one step further and raising them to believe that Christianity is for the week minded, niave, brainwashed people, and then turn around and, for the fun of it, explain how santa comes around etc etc...
Would simply seeing the figures still promote religion, do you think?? I know he IS a religious figure, but if you teach your kids he is fictional from the start, is he still a threat, IYO...
Unless you are forced to bowdown, worship, etc I feel no figure is a threat. Those that see it as a threat simply do so in their mind. Even the debate regarding a Christmas tree goes too far. As far as I know, the fact a goverment in this country places a tree on their property and calls it a Christmas tree poses no real threat. Those that wish to pursue this only do so for that separation of church and state that they beleive to be in the constitution. Whether one interprets this from the wording or not ...what real threat does a nativity scene or tree pose? If you are not forced to look atit worship it.....or celebarte it....how can it be a threat to anyone? because thay believe it to be in their mind.
I beleive thier are more improtant issues in this country...leave the darn Christmas trees alone and focuse on more importnat matters.
JMO
 
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