bioballs = waste of time?

[gregvabch]

i'm trying to set up a refugium and i would like to replace my current filter with a wet/dry using bioballs but i've heard some bad things about them. is it worth my time to incorporate bioballs in a wet/dry environment? can anyone recommend something better to go with a refugium? i would like to get my back pack filter off the tank and upgrade to better filtration as well.

 

[jlem]

The whole thing is that bioballs do not convert nitrate, but live rock and a DSB will, so as long as you use a prefilter before the bioballs then they should not be a problem. Now if you do a refuge then you will probably take out the bioballs to make room for the algae that will reduce nitrates. A emperor 400 is a good filter for that size of tank. are you experiencing a problem with water quality. What is your maintenance schedule. Before you go and spend alot of money on different filtration lets see if you even need it. Your emperor 400 is a wet/dry in that the biowheels are exposed to the air as well as the spray bars.

 

[gregvabch]

in the last month i've started changing about 10 gallons of water a week, also using ro/di water for my changes but i just got the unit last week. my nitrates are usually around 10 to 15 ppm. they were a lot worse before i got rid of my cc, but i would like to have them below 5 ppm. i just want to know if a wet/dry is worth my while or if i should just stick with my emperor 400 and build just the fuge.

 

[jlem]

A wetdry won't do anything more than your 400. A refuge should lower nitrates but so will a DSB and the DSB will cost less. Your nitrates are not that high and if you just recently replaced your C/C then give your SB time to see if it is deep enough to lower nitrates. Do you add any trace elements. With that many water changes you should not have to add anything exept MAYBE calcium and buffer. It sounds like you have changed alot of stuff recently so just give what you have time to do it's thing. Nitrates at zero is a pretty recent thing that was of little concern for years. They can be a problem in a reef if they get high but low amounts I have read won't hurt corals. When I get back to the states soon I will read what the limit was and post it.

 

[slick]

Originally posted by jlem
A wetdry won't do anything more than your 400.
I will have to disagree on this. A wet/dry has a lot more surface area for bateria to grow. As long as the bio balls are kept clean you should br fine.

 

[gregvabch]

ok so what do you mean by kept clean? like once a year? cleaning them would remove bacteria right?

 

[jlem]

A large sump with lots of bioballs will house more bacteria than a 400. A small sump with bioballs will not. The tank is only a 55, and a the biowheels will house more than enough bacteria. If greg had a 250 full of messy fish then a large wet/dry full of bioballs would probably be a better choice then an emporer 400. He/she only has a 55 though. Cleaning them meaning rinsing them in saltwater and removing gunk that may have got trapped on them. You never need to clean biowheels. You clean the filter of course but the wheels you just drop into the tank until you are done cleaning the filter and then put them back on.

 

[slick]

That is true.
To clean your bio balls you will have to take them out and rinse them in a tub of saltwater. NEVER use reqular water as it will kill all the bacteria.

 

[bang guy]

Just an opinion -
I see that you don't have a DSB, more of a shallow sand bed. I believe your shallow sand bed has much more surface area than a few gallons of bio-balls. I believe the balls would be a waste of money but they would not hurt anything.
If you ever decided to use a DSB for Nitrate reduction I believe any bio-balls would detract from the Nitrate reducing potential of the DSB.
I'm pretty much alone in that opinion though. I still believe I'm right, even if I'm the only one
Guy <--- awaiting the fallout....

 

[gregvabch]

ok, about the dsb. when i put my sand in, i rinsed it all before putting it in. later on i read that you shouldn't rinse the sand because the really fine stuff is what creates the "oxygen free" zone at the bottom which completes the nitrogen cycle. is this accurate? if so, if i added some more sand, without rinsing it, would the finer stuff eventually make it to the bottom to create the complete dsb? also, a guy at my llfs told me that dsb's only cause algae problems. dunno what to make of that advice...specially since i was buying the sand there and me buying more sand meant more of a sale for him.

 

[saltwaterdave]

What kind of sand are you using?Did you buy it from animal jungle? I am in N.N............I would ditch the bio-balls and go with a dsb about 4" ,and you will be fine.Later on you can get a cup or 2 of some Ls from some local's and you dsb will start to get some life in it and function the way you want.
David

 

[wamp]

I'm pretty much alone in that opinion though. I still believe I'm right, even if I'm the only one
And the Tumble weed blows across the land.............
Yep, I still have yet to hear a defenitive argument for your theroy. That said, I do rember reading a post by you about the theroy, it was very well thought out but no evidence. But, I have not seen written evidence to the contriary either.. Funny how these things go.
However, the nitrogen cycle does not care how it happens, just that it happens. Rather it be, balls, rock or sand, it makes no diffrence. If the balls convert the ammonia and nitrite, the DSB is left with the trate conversion. What would it matter about the ammonia conversion. If anything, I would think it would help the process along.

 

[gregvabch]

i bought the sand from fish safari on lynnhaven, animal jungle has gone way down hill since a few people quit working there. the sand i have is aragonite, although i don't remember where they claim it came from, it's about mid grade as far as the size of the granules or whatever. do you think i should go with a smaller size/texture if i add any? i could definetly use some live sand to seed mine. i bought a bag of that aragalive stuff as well when i changed over to sand, but i don't think it's the same as using sand from an established sand bed. i didn't think to save any of the crushed coral when i took it out, i just wanted to get rid of it.

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by wamp
What would it matter about the ammonia conversion. If anything, I would think it would help the process along.
Absolutely... it will even help the Nitrite conversion. I just believe it will hinder the Nitrate conversion.
gregvabch - A couple handfulls of sand from a thriving sand bed will go far. Variable grain sizes in a sand bed are desireable IMO so if you can find some good fine sand you'll be better off.
Guy

 

[chris s]

i might be a little late but i heard that you can save money by buying plastic golf balls with the holes in them. one college guy was low on money and used the golf balls andhe said they turned out fine. i dont know how big his set up was though. just a thought for people in the future.
chris s

 

[dreeves]

Bang Guy...
I would be interested in hearing as to what leads you to believe bio-balls would hinder the nitrate process of the DSB?
Thanks

 

[thomas712]

Chris- that is one heck of a cheap and good solution for those that really want to save money. And brings up a good point that you can place manythings in that portion of the wet/dry. I have heard of people using coils of the weed wacker string, PVC parts, chopped up UGF, or anything plastic that can be cut up and placed in for the bacteria to get a hold of. Plastic golf balls=good idea for a poor mans bio balls.
Personally I would like to set up the 55 again, only this time with a wet/dry and external overflow, then I would (just for fun) take my old crushed coral and some portland cement and make my own bio balls using he CC.
Thomas

 

[thomas712]

Gregvabch - Personally I believe that adding the wet/dry to your system would be a fine idea. I really believe in the power of the bio ball, the high oxygen ability, the ability to break up the ammonia and nitrites.
Most of the downside that you hear about is whispered in the bathroom stalls and a bunch of bunk in my opinion.
Downside is that like anything else you will need to maintain them occationally, which means taking them out, about 1/4 of them, and rinsing any detruis or debis off of them using tank water preferably. or they can become a nitrate problem, just like overfeeding or any other type of filter except a DSB which has the power to finish the process by exporting the nitrates in the for m of a gas,
Thomas

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by dreeves
Bang Guy...
I would be interested in hearing as to what leads you to believe bio-balls would hinder the nitrate process of the DSB?
Thanks
My ideas were posted a long time ago. Do a search on
"Anyone Reduced Nitrates Effectively"
and my opinion is stated there. Bunk or not I've seen plenty of anectodal evidence supporting it.
Guy

 

[saltwaterdave]

just like overfeeding or any other type of filter except a DSB which has the power to finish the process by exporting the nitrates in the for m of a gas

That's why a dsb is perferred by some people