Breeders and The Future of Texas White Tails

[2quills]

Here's a short little play by play of what's going on. Essentially Texas legislators have been going after breeders of white tail deer for years now and they aren't being very nice about it.
Essentially what I and some of my associates believe is that state legislators and their supporters (who own a bunch of low fence hunting ranches) are regulating and using the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department to police breeders to death.
Why would they do that you ask? Basically because they have been losing a lot of money to breeders who produce genetically superior livestock that people prefer to hunt more. And they are using CWD (chronic wasting disease) as their doomsday scenario ploy to do it. Keep in mind than in the 10 years that Texas has closed it boarders to the importation and exportation of deer not a single case has ever been found or linked to breeders. One case was found in a wild herd two years ago thought to be associated with herds in New Mexico.
Here's a story from a couple of years back from a ranch that they hit and slaughter over 70 premium white tails. Essentially TPWD officials claimed the guy was a bad character and was illegally trafficking deer. I warn you it's kind of sad. http://www.houstonpress.com/2013-07-11/news/new-hornographers/full/
Which brings me to my next point because they just raided the ranch of an associate of mine and slaughtered 250+ deer as well as an untoled number of exotics (which are still being found) that had nothing to do with their investigation. I believe it's over money. And they are claiming poor record keeping and undocumented deer as their excuse to do it which actually isn't true. They seem to be trying to pin it on one of our investors and are now slandering him in the news with the charges and false claim that he let a hunter shoot a 22 point buck in a pen for an undisclosed amount of money. That's actually not the truth at all.
While I can't comment about the specific facts all I can say is that the lawyers have already began drawing up the papers for a number of law suits.
Here's a link to the local New story where there was a heated debate https://m.facebook.com/KIII3News/photos/a.113571931804.106585.113458336804/10152017882806805/?type=1&source=46
Link to the ranch..http://www.lonesomebullranch.com/
My question to you guys is, was this right or wrongful justice in your opinions?
Aggie, I'm going to respectfully ask you not to run wild with this please. It's not a joke to me.

 

[aggiealum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397666/breeders-and-the-future-of-texas-white-tails#post_3545222
Here's a short little play by play of what's going on. Essentially Texas legislators have been going after breeders of white tail deer for years now and they aren't being very nice about it.
Essentially what I and some of my associates believe is that state legislators and their supporters (who own a bunch of low fence hunting ranches) are regulating and using the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department to police breeders to death.
Why would they do that you ask? Basically because they have been losing a lot of money to breeders who produce genetically superior livestock that people prefer to hunt more. And they are using CWD (chronic wasting disease) as their doomsday scenario ploy to do it. Keep in mind than in the 10 years that Texas has closed it boarders to the importation and exportation of deer not a single case has ever been found or linked to breeders. One case was found in a wild herd two years ago thought to be associated with herds in New Mexico.
Here's a story from a couple of years back from a ranch that they hit and slaughter over 70 premium white tails. Essentially TPWD officials claimed the guy was a bad character and was illegally trafficking deer. I warn you it's kind of sad. http://www.houstonpress.com/2013-07-11/news/new-hornographers/full/
Which brings me to my next point because they just raided the ranch of an associate of mine and slaughtered 250+ deer as well as an untoled number of exotics (which are still being found) that had nothing to do with their investigation. I believe it's over money. And they are claiming poor record keeping and undocumented deer as their excuse to do it which actually isn't true. They seem to be trying to pin it on one of our investors and are now slandering him in the news with the charges and false claim that he let a hunter shoot a 22 point buck in a pen for an undisclosed amount of money. That's actually not the truth at all.
While I can't comment about the specific facts all I can say is that the lawyers have already began drawing up the papers for a number of law suits.
Here's a link to the local New story where there was a heated debate https://m.facebook.com/KIII3News/photos/a.113571931804.106585.113458336804/10152017882806805/?type=1&source=46
Link to the ranch..http://www.lonesomebullranch.com/
My question to you guys is, was this right or wrongful justice in your opinions?
Aggie, I'm going to respectfully ask you not to run wild with this please. It's not a joke to me.
Blame it on Obama. I'm sure his honorable Rick Perry and your Republican-dominated Texas Congress would have anything to do with this...


Do you have evidence these "Legislators" are specifically targeting your associates ranch? I know at least two similar "exotic ranches" out in the Texas Hill Country (Kerrville, Rocksprings, and Junction area), and none of those individuals have ever mentioned TPW wanting to come on their property and thin the Whitetail herd. I've gone on hunts on their property (before you ask, I use their bolt action rifles to hunt with), and what's sad is some of their livestock is nothing more that large pets. They feed them this special formulated diet that fattens them up, raise them from birth, and you can practically walk up and feed them by hand. Then they let them loose on their couple thousand acres, and take "hunters" out there to slaughter them without any effort. Sorry, but that's not my definition of "hunting".

Whitetails breed like cats and dogs. I have 5 - 10 of them living on the back section of my property as we speak. Our neighborhood tried to get TPW to do a "catch and release" a couple years ago because the deer got so bad you couldn't even keep any kind of plants or flowers in your yard because they'd eat it all. We wanted to do our own "kill", and they wouldn't let us.

 

[2quills]

Blame it on Obama.  I'm sure his honorable Rick Perry and your Republican-dominated Texas Congress would have anything to do with this...
Do you have evidence these "Legislators" are specifically targeting your associates ranch?  I know at least two similar "exotic ranches" out in the Texas Hill Country (Kerrville, Rocksprings, and Junction area), and none of those individuals have ever mentioned TPW wanting to come on their property and thin the Whitetail herd.  I've gone on hunts on their property (before you ask, I use their bolt action rifles to hunt with), and what's sad is some of their livestock is nothing more that large pets.  They feed them this special formulated diet that fattens them up, raise them from birth, and you can practically walk up and feed them by hand.  Then they let them loose on their couple thousand acres, and take "hunters" out there to slaughter them without any effort.  Sorry, but that's not my definition of "hunting".
Whitetails breed like cats and dogs.  I have 5 - 10 of them living on the back section of my property as we speak.  Our neighborhood tried to get TPW to do a "catch and release" a couple years ago because the deer got so bad you couldn't even keep any kind of plants or flowers in your yard because they'd eat it all.  We wanted to do our own "kill", and they wouldn't let us.
The hard evidence for what breeders believe is a little tricky to nail down. But I will agree with you that, Perry most likely would have no problem with it.
The only animals that are typically raised like pets would be babies abandoned by their mothers or mothers died. You wouldn't be hand feeding anything other than that here.

 

[darthtang aw]

I have never been a fan of what i call "bambi on stick" hunts. I admit i am lacking on the full information of this issue and may not completely understand the issue. So i will refrain from further comment until i do my homework.

 

[2quills]

It isn't about the exotics. The state has no jurisdiction over those animals. They are targeting breeders of native game or more precisely white tail breeders.
Aggie, do the exotic ranches that you hunt breed some of the largest white tails in the state?
Darth, love it or hate it, shooting an animal in a 200+ acre trap isn't much different than tracking out to state or other private land. If you're going to spend a few grand to go hunt do you want to wait for hours or days on end in hope that you see something or do you want to actually come home with meat and a large trophy?
Personally, I haven't hunted since I was a teen. No real desire for it. Fact of the matter is that you can "hunt" and they will make it a challenge for you or you can essentially harvest your own animal if the real hunt doesn't pay off the way you'd hoped. Harvesting animals is done on a large scale in this country every day to provide meat to the grocers that people pay money for. I've seen slaughter houses and its by far a more stressful experience for the animal leading up to the kill. Here, they are taken unaware in their home.

 

[aggiealum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397666/breeders-and-the-future-of-texas-white-tails#post_3545238
It isn't about the exotics. The state has no jurisdiction over those animals. They are targeting breeders of native game or more precisely white tail breeders.
Aggie, do the exotic ranches that you hunt breed some of the largest white tails in the state?
Darth, love it or hate it, shooting an animal in a 200+ acre trap isn't much different than tracking out to state or other private land. If you're going to spend a few grand to go hunt do you want to wait for hours or days on end in hope that you see something or do you want to actually come home with meat and a large trophy?
Personally, I haven't hunted since I was a teen. No real desire for it. Fact of the matter is that you can "hunt" and they will make it a challenge for you or you can essentially harvest your own animal if the real hunt doesn't pay off the way you'd hoped. Harvesting animals is done on a large scale in this country every day to provide meat to the grocers that people pay money for. I've seen slaughter houses and its by far a more stressful experience for the animal leading up to the kill. Here, they are taken unaware in their home.
Define "largest white tails in the state". The ranch I went to specialized in Axis and Sika Deer. The Whitetails on the property are just "natural" to the region. A client of mine in Houston is a family member of this ranch that's between Kerrville and Rocksprings, so I was fortunate that I didn't have to pay to go hunt on the property. I wasn't interested in a Boone and Crockett, nor did care for how many points it had on its rack. I just wanted a decent size buck for the meat (I can eat venison sausage and jerky every day). The last time I went was a couple years ago, and the buck I shot dressed out around 70 lbs. I was told this was "good sized" for the Whitetails for that year because the deer weren't growing that large due to the drought.

Exotic hunts are geared towards people who have money to burn and pay big bucks to make the appearance they're some experienced hunter and know how to track and shoot exotic game. All they do is buy a Boone and Crockett, and pay a premium for deer meat they probably don't even process or eat. Most deer hunts in Texas, even the one's that aren't on these types of ranches, I wouldn't call "challenging". You have these people that lease or own a couple hundred acres of land, and starting around August they stick these feeders in specific areas that are in the open and about 50 - 100 yards from a pre-built blind. They feed them deer corn for the next couple of months at pre-determined times, and essentially train them to come to the same place every day for "breakfast" and "dinner" like Pavlov's dog. Then comes opening day where they sit in their heated blind waiting for the breakfast or dinner "bell", and cherry pick which deer they want. I suppose the only skill in this type of hunting is waiting for the right buck to come out to play. Most older bucks are smarter than that, and that's why some of the more impressive racks are harder to obtain.

 

[2quills]

Define "largest white tails in the state".  The ranch I went to specialized in Axis and Sika Deer.  The Whitetails on the property are just "natural" to the region.  A client of mine in Houston is a family member of this ranch that's between Kerrville and Rocksprings, so I was fortunate that I didn't have to pay to go hunt on the property.  I wasn't interested in a Boone and Crockett, nor did care for how many points it had on its rack.  I just wanted a decent size buck for the meat (I can eat venison sausage and jerky every day).  The last time I went was a couple years ago, and the buck I shot dressed out around 70 lbs.  I was told this was "good sized" for the Whitetails for that year because the deer weren't growing that large due to the drought.
Exotic hunts are geared towards people who have money to burn and pay big bucks to make the appearance they're some experienced hunter and know how to track and shoot exotic game.  All they do is buy a Boone and Crockett, and pay a premium for deer meat they probably don't even process or eat.  Most deer hunts in Texas, even the one's that aren't on these types of ranches, I wouldn't call "challenging".  You have these people that lease or own a couple hundred acres of land, and starting around August they stick these feeders in specific areas that are in the open and about 50 - 100 yards from a pre-built blind.  They feed them deer corn for the next couple of months at pre-determined times, and essentially train them to come to the same place every day for "breakfast" and "dinner" like Pavlov's dog.  Then comes opening day where they sit in their heated blind waiting for the breakfast or dinner "bell", and cherry pick which deer they want.  I suppose the only skill in this type of hunting is waiting for the right buck to come out to play.  Most older bucks are smarter than that, and that's why some of the more impressive racks are harder to obtain.
20-30 pointers.
Define "skill". Skill IMO, is making a single shot kill from a few hundred yards. You can trek around the larger pastures all day long if you wish if that makes it more of a "challenge" for you. Most hunts the hunters simply post up in blinds all day waiting for their animal to come Into sight (if at all). And I do know the guys do not encourage ambushing the animals coming out of the feeder fences. High fence hunters are aware of the reputation some people trying to give them. Technically you can shoot them as soon as they come out. But in my time I haven't heard of that being allowed unless it was a last resort to satisfy a client.
Honestly, not all high fence hunters promote the type of hunting you're talking about. If that's what you think all breeders are about then I don't think you'd be accurate.
Also, Aggie you don't get to cherry pick. Animals are specifically selected for hunts before hand.

 

[2quills]

Let me break it down for you guys a little bit more so maybe you guy's can see why I feel this is such an issue.
Keep in mind I personally wasn't there so what ever I say could simply just be supposition. But I am in direct contact with the owners daily.
What I "think" happened is there was a Hunter. This Hunter knew the owners and family. The ranch had made a loan to the Hunter. The Hunter had a hard time paying off the loan but knew the family so no big deal. A 22 point buck needed to be euthanized after an injury. Family didn't want to do it themselves so the Hunter who was an authorized agent to euthanize animals if need be was brought in to do it as a way to pay down some of the debt. Which is why money was exchanged from the Hunter to the ranch. He wasn't there to kill a buck in a pen for an undisclosed amount of money. He was there to pay down some debt.
The Hunter, I believe got in some sort of trouble with the game wardens over some other issue somewhere else. What I believe happened is that the Hunter as a way to weasel himself out of trouble made a deal with the wardens. Something most likely to the effect that if he gave them a bigger fish to fry he could skate away from his charges.
All of a sudden on December 13, 2013 game wardens started showing up at the ranch to do routine checks to see that everything was in compliance. Keep in mind all deer are permitted and documented. The deaths started virtually right off the bat. They would dart the deer but never stick around to make sure they got up. In the beginning there was no talk of chronic waste disease. They simply kept coming and deaths kept happening. They would show up day after day sometimes and then sometimes not come back for a week or two but then pop back up again. Sometimes in the middle of the night. They cut locks off gates and would let themselves in. Left gates open all the time. Allowing animals to escape into areas they shouldn't.
They had nothing. Only thing they could come up with was some inconsistent logs that occurred as a result of some personnel changes that needed to be made durring that time. So they said undocumented deer are a risk so they all needed to be put down. The deer weren't undocumented. The ranch has all permits. Nothing was wild caught or illegally brought it. So they came back to slaughter the herd, arrested the ranch manager for allowing a hunter to shoot a deer in a pen and plastered his face all over the news.
The day they showed up for the final slaughter they came with about 30 trucks and 2 helicopters to round up and shoot them all. It took 3 days to kill 250+ white tails. They brought in large waste disposal dumpsters to haul them all off. Testing for chronic wast disease can only be done post mortem now mind you. They chased the animals all over the property for 3 days strait spooking all the herds, running them into fences etc.etc. They are still finding injuries and dead animals. None of the exotics received food or care durring that time.
Now remember. Chronic waste disease has not been discovered In white tails in the ten years that they started this campaign to prevent the disease from entering the state from neighboring states. Darth, if you hunt in New Mexico then this should concern you.
My question to you guys is...does any of this seem logical or reasonable to you? You can go to the "King Ranch" and bag a premium white tail for about $14,000. Or you can bag the same animal with us for a little cheaper. If you know anything about the King Ranch then you may be able to see how politics can tie into all of this.
2 years ago the authority for tracking the disease was transferred from the CDC (center for disease control) to the Texas parks and wildlife department. The CDC had no authority to police breeders. But the TPWD, does. So instead of using the CDC to track the disease they are using the states second largest law enforcement agency. 2 years ago they slaughtered the Anderson, herd. Which was the first link I posted. And now my associates.
Starting to make sense yet? The ranch will be going after the TPWD for damages, wrongful arrest and defimation. The tax payers will be paying for all of this. The slaughter, investigation, the testing and now the restitution.

 

[reefraff]

Dunno bout Texas but I've seen some places in Montana where I don't think you could call it fair chase and others where you could. I am sure Texas is the same way. Also saw a case where a private herd was destroyed due to CWD. It's pretty easy to check when the animals are somewhat contained. Environmental nut cases do use it as an excuse to try to eliminate private herds.

 

[aggiealum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397666/breeders-and-the-future-of-texas-white-tails#post_3545257
20-30 pointers.
Define "skill". Skill IMO, is making a single shot kill from a few hundred yards. You can trek around the larger pastures all day long if you wish if that makes it more of a "challenge" for you. Most hunts the hunters simply post up in blinds all day waiting for their animal to come Into sight (if at all). And I do know the guys do not encourage ambushing the animals coming out of the feeder fences. High fence hunters are aware of the reputation some people trying to give them. Technically you can shoot them as soon as they come out. But in my time I haven't heard of that being allowed unless it was a last resort to satisfy a client.
Honestly, not all high fence hunters promote the type of hunting you're talking about. If that's what you think all breeders are about then I don't think you'd be accurate.
Also, Aggie you don't get to cherry pick. Animals are specifically selected for hunts before hand.
20-30 pointers? Seriously? That's not a normal Whitetail deer, that's a biological mutant. So how many Boone and Crockett deer has this place produced? Oh wait, let me create my own B&C deer, stick it out in a field to be "selectively killed" and stick it in the record books.

LOL. What's the difference between cherry picking and "specifically selected"? Reputation? Every deer hunter I've known throughout my life hunt deer using feeders. The only one's I know that don't are one's that go out to Big Bend and hunt for mule deer. It's not logical to try and feed them there because they have thousands of acres to roam to find plenty of food. As far as "hunters simply post up in blinds all day waiting for their animal to come Into sight (if at all).", that only applies to someone wanting to kill a trophy buck. If all they wanted was meat, they could shoot their tags for the season on opening day by hitting a couple of good sized doe's. Making a single shot from a few hundred yards? Who sets up a blind more than 150 yards from their feeding area? I suppose if you're stupid enough to pay someone a couple thousand dollars to shoot one of their biologically-engineered pets they practically stake out for you to shoot, you might as well make it somewhat challenging by forcing to try and hit it from a couple hundred yards away.

 

[jay0705]

Ive gone to a preserve hunt once, for hogs. Never again!!!!! If I want to shoot a pig like that I'll go to the auction and buy one. That said, not all ranches practice that type of hunting. Low fence, high fence. If any animal is restricted in movement its not fair chase. Some are just fairer than others. Hunting is huge in Texas, so I can believe government is getting involved. They make millions off it a yr.

 

[reefraff]

By then, plenty of other hunters in the area were also looking to make whitetail history. Fearful that the deer would be shot by a neighboring hunter or poacher, get hit by a vehicle or break an antler while rubbing, the family recruited Doug’s son, Tony, to pursue him during September’s special youth season. This early season allows a youth accompanied by an adult to hunt deer with a bow, shotgun or muzzleloader prior to the regular archery season.

On Sept. 29, Tony accompanied Doug and Mark to a ground blind in one of the buck’s favorite areas. That evening a small buck stepped out, followed by the one they wanted. Tony’s 70-yard shot hit the buck in the midsection, and he was recovered the next day.

The 38-point rack received a “green” B&C score of 322 4/8 — far above the existing hunter-taken world record of 295 6/8 — and soon the hunting world was abuzz with the news. The Jan. and Feb. 2004 issues of North American Whitetail had the first photos and details of the hunt, bringing the remarkable story full circle. Although a panel of measurers later reduced the Lovstuen buck’s final score to 307 5/8, that was still enough to make him the “world’s biggest hunter-taken whitetail.” That designation and the events surrounding the deer’s life make him a trophy for the ages.
Read more: http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/2010/09/22/naw_0104promo/#ixzz31bD5mSev



http://www.kingsoutdoorworld.com/stories/mag7_story.htm

 

[2quills]

Reef, it's a pretty nasty disease similar to mad cow disease. I believe there have been cases to where it was certainly necessary to euthanize a herd. Wont argue with that. But nothing here in texas has been found Ever in regards to linking Texas breeders to it. If they could then this might be different.
Aggie, define what classifies a genetic mutant. By definition your dog is a genetic mutant, the food you eat and you yourself could be considered the same. The only blinds here posted near the vacinity of a feeder are for the bow hunters. Others are set up in specific locations for medium and long distance shots around the ponds and other locations. Every hunter loves a decent challenge. I do know that they try to provide that experience for clients. But in the end it always comes down to money. I'm sure it was a real challenge for you when your buddy let you take an animal from his property. Which ranch was this?

 

[2quills]

Jay, actually its a billion dollar a year industry here. Yes, its full of politics.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397666/breeders-and-the-future-of-texas-white-tails#post_3545294
Reef, it's a pretty nasty disease similar to mad cow disease. I believe there have been cases to where it was certainly necessary to euthanize a herd. Wont argue with that. But nothing here in texas has been found Ever in regards to linking Texas breeders to it. If they could then this might be different.
Aggie, define what classifies a genetic mutant. By definition your dog is a genetic mutant, the food you eat and you yourself could be considered the same. The only blinds here posted near the vacinity of a feeder are for the bow hunters. Others are set up in specific locations for medium and long distance shots around the ponds and other locations. Every hunter loves a decent challenge. I do know that they try to provide that experience for clients. But in the end it always comes down to money. I'm sure it was a real challenge for you when your buddy let you take an animal from his property. Which ranch was this?
Point being with a captive herd it's easy to rule out. They shoot Buffalo that leave Yellowstone because of the worry of Brucillosis (SP?) being spread to domestic cattle. Better safe than sorry cause there's no way to ever track down all those critters in the park.

 

[jay0705]

Billion! Lol yea I guess its true. Texas is the hunting capital of the u.s. its seems.
W the yellow stone buffalo. Its ranchers cattle domestic cattle, in danger. Why not immunize the cattle and let the buffalo roam.

 

[2quills]

Point being with a captive herd it's easy to rule out. They shoot Buffalo that leave Yellowstone because of the worry of Brucillosis (SP?) being spread to domestic cattle. Better safe than sorry cause there's no way to ever track down all those critters in the park. 
I'd also consider this...
If by chance the disease were to whipe out native populations then who do they think is going to help them rebuild?
Jay, that's a good point. In terms of the african exotics many species thrive here in the texas environment. Here they are renewable. In africa they are in danger of being poached to extinction.

 

[reefraff]

I don't believe it's possible to inoculate against brucellosis. Besides there are plenty of Buffalo in the park. Personally I think Montana should start a wild herd around the park and start selling the meat. It's fine eating and the only game animal I've ever shot.

 

[jay0705]

I have no issue w hunting buffalo, just the reasoning they use to do it.
W exotics I agree. No its not the African Experience, But U Can Still Go Hunt A Unique, Renewable Animal

 

[2quills]

I don't believe it's possible to inoculate against brucellosis.  Besides there are plenty of Buffalo in the park. Personally I think Montana should start a wild herd around the park and start selling the meat. It's fine eating and the only game animal I've ever shot. 
Those buffalo bring visitors to the park. My guess is they don't want to lose that revenue to the locals. Its pretty good. The wife and I get free meet from the ranch sometimes. There's a species of cattle from china I think called barasinga (sp?). Sells for upwards of a $100 a pound. Pretty tasty.