Breeders and The Future of Texas White Tails

darthtang aw

Active Member
I will say this. From what I have gleaned on the issue, while I disagree with these types of hunts they are legal under the law. The actions taken by the government seem extreme since a random sampling would glean the same results.
There is a way to test without destroying the animals from what I have read. However it is a long and costly process. If the animals comeback clean the government should be forced to pay back going rate per animal as if they were paid to to be hunted.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
I will say this. From what I have gleaned on the issue, while I disagree with these types of hunts they are legal under the law. The actions taken by the government seem extreme since a random sampling would glean the same results.
There is a way to test without destroying the animals from what I have read. However it is a long and costly process. If the animals comeback clean the government should be forced to pay back going rate per animal as if they were paid to to be hunted.
That's what we figured as well. Like I said, I'm not really a hunter myself. But these are associates of ours (investors) so I feel obligated to help bring out the truth. There is a lot of "old school" justice still going on in south texas.
My question is if they really felt that these deer were a problem then why not simply euthanize and test the animals they claim were a problem and go from there? Why spend months coming back and forth before they slaughtered them all to test? They are looking for reasons. Plain and simple.
Durring a period of time last year the ranch had a hard time finding a good forman. I think a couple of animals (youngsters) may have slipped through the cracks of not being identified properly on the paperwork. I'm not a 100% sure on that.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Nahhh, There are private as well as tribal herds in Montana already. The Buffalo are OK but Jellystone has a lot better things to see than them.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Nahhh, There are private as well as tribal herds in Montana already. The Buffalo are OK but Jellystone has a lot better things to see than them. 
The pictures look nice. :)
Never been up that way but I used to play pool with a custom cue maker who had some property over there somewhere south of Butte (sp?). Think he had a ranch called sugar loaf or something along those lines.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member

Why spend months coming back and forth before they slaughtered them all to test? They are looking for reasons. Plain and simple.
.
Why wait 20 years to impose cattle grazing fines?
 

2quills

Well-Known Member

Why wait 20 years to impose cattle grazing fines? I knew you were a smart guy. :)
Why is our federal government going after the family members of people it claims were over payed on social security benefits without showing any proof?
I'll tell you what. You can call me a conspiracy theorist all you want. But if the federal government works anything like the south texas justice system then its a bad day to call ourselves citizens indeed. We are under attack and the threat is coming from the inside. Sorry if that makes me sound crazy. But I've seen and heard too much to believe otherwise.
 

aggiealum

Member
Looks to me they lost their breeding permit..

http://www.kiiitv.com/story/25448540/game-warden-investigate-deer-breeding-facility-in-jim-wells-county-seize-animals

http://www.lsonews.com/busted-lonesome-bull-ranch-owner-arrested-deer-euthanized/

So are these the "good ole boys" that came down on your buddy and essentially shut him down if he can no longer breed these "super deer" for people to hunt?

http://www.texasdeerassociation.com/

Also seems the owner has had a run-in with the law in the past:

It's not his first run-in with the law. Rich received time in prison for federal charges that he scammed insurance companies out of thousands of dollars in fraudulent mold claims.
Prosecutors said Rich, who owned a company called Mold Inc., and two other men pled guilty to suing a technique called "cooking houses." It involved wetting down the inside of a home, shutting doors and windows, and then cranking up the heat to create mold.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Here's a short little play by play of what's going on. Essentially Texas legislators have been going after breeders of white tail deer for years now and they aren't being very nice about it.
Essentially what I and some of my associates believe is that state legislators and their supporters (who own a bunch of low fence hunting ranches) are regulating and using the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department to police breeders to death.
Why would they do that you ask? Basically because they have been losing a lot of money to breeders who produce genetically superior livestock that people prefer to hunt more. And they are using CWD (chronic wasting disease) as their doomsday scenario ploy to do it. Keep in mind than in the 10 years that Texas has closed it boarders to the importation and exportation of deer not a single case has ever been found or linked to breeders. One case was found in a wild herd two years ago thought to be associated with herds in New Mexico.
Here's a story from a couple of years back from a ranch that they hit and slaughter over 70 premium white tails. Essentially TPWD officials claimed the guy was a bad character and was illegally trafficking deer. I warn you it's kind of sad. http://www.houstonpress.com/2013-07-11/news/new-hornographers/full/
Which brings me to my next point because they just raided the ranch of an associate of mine and slaughtered 250+ deer as well as an untoled number of exotics (which are still being found) that had nothing to do with their investigation. I believe it's over money. And they are claiming poor record keeping and undocumented deer as their excuse to do it which actually isn't true. They seem to be trying to pin it on one of our investors and are now slandering him in the news with the charges and false claim that he let a hunter shoot a 22 point buck in a pen for an undisclosed amount of money. That's actually not the truth at all.
While I can't comment about the specific facts all I can say is that the lawyers have already began drawing up the papers for a number of law suits.
Here's a link to the local New story where there was a heated debate https://m.facebook.com/KIII3News/photos/a.113571931804.106585.113458336804/10152017882806805/?type=1&source=46
Link to the ranch..http://www.lonesomebullranch.com/
My question to you guys is, was this right or wrongful justice in your opinions?
Aggie, I'm going to respectfully ask you not to run wild with this please. It's not a joke to me.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Looks to me they lost their breeding permit..
http://www.kiiitv.com/story/25448540/game-warden-investigate-deer-breeding-facility-in-jim-wells-county-seize-animals
http://www.lsonews.com/busted-lonesome-bull-ranch-owner-arrested-deer-euthanized/
So are these the "good ole boys" that came down on your buddy and essentially shut him down if he can no longer breed these "super deer" for people to hunt?
http://www.texasdeerassociation.com/
Also seems the owner has had a run-in with the law in the past:
It's not his first run-in with the law. Rich received time in prison for federal charges that he scammed insurance companies out of thousands of dollars in fraudulent mold claims.
Prosecutors said Rich, who owned a company called Mold Inc., and two other men pled guilty to suing a technique called "cooking houses." It involved wetting down the inside of a home, shutting doors and windows, and then cranking up the heat to create mold.
Precisely why the ranch is going after the TPWD for wrongful arrest and defimation. Mr. Rich isn't and never has been the owner of that breeding program or the ranch. All of the licensing and permits will confirm that in court. Like I said, he was the ranch manager. The real owners names have never even been mentioned. I'm guessing that given his past transgressions they figured it would be an easier play to try and pin it on him. But as far as court cases go I don't think it gets much weaker than this.
Mr. Rich had been involved with the insurance thing many years back. It involved some crooked insurance adjusters and he did take the wrap. Another reason why I believe tax payers have no business paying people's insurance. But that was over ten years ago and doesn't have anything to do with what happened here.
Like in the case with the Anderson herd, and what I'm hearing from a few others is that the TPWD, for whatever reason seems to be going out of their way to not renew breeders permits.
 

aggiealum

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397666/breeders-and-the-future-of-texas-white-tails/20#post_3545377
Precisely why the ranch is going after the TPWD for wrongful arrest and defimation. Mr. Rich isn't and never has been the owner of that breeding program or the ranch. All of the licensing and permits will confirm that in court. Like I said, he was the ranch manager. The real owners names have never even been mentioned. I'm guessing that given his past transgressions they figured it would be an easier play to try and pin it on him. But as far as court cases go I don't think it gets much weaker than this.
Mr. Rich had been involved with the insurance thing many years back. It involved some crooked insurance adjusters and he did take the wrap. Another reason why I believe tax payers have no business paying people's insurance. But that was over ten years ago and doesn't have anything to do with what happened here.
Like in the case with the Anderson herd, and what I'm hearing from a few others is that the TPWD, for whatever reason seems to be going out of their way to not renew breeders permits.
OK, forget about this Rich guy. Even if there are other "owners" of the breeding permits, why are the investigators saying this:

Investigators say, the ranch also serves as a deer breeding facility, and as such is subject to Texas Parks and Wildlife regulations. Investigators say the facility has not met their requirements and for that reason have decided not to renew their permit, essentially shutting down the deer breeding portion of the ranch.
Steve Lightfoot, spokesperson for Texas Parks and Wildlife told 3 News by phone, "we've conducted several inspections and herd investigations into this facility and many of the requirements that deer breeders are required to have, including unique markings and identifiers on animals, tracking movement records have not been met."

So based on this comment by Mr. Lightfoot, it doesn't appear to matter who owns the permits. They're basing their decision to deny renewing the permits on how the facility is not meeting specific breeder requirements and TPW regulations. So unless these owners can prove these allegations are false, who owns the licensing and permits is irrelevant.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member

OK, forget about this Rich guy.  Even if there are other "owners" of the breeding permits, why are the investigators saying this:
Investigators say, the ranch also serves as a deer breeding facility, and as such is subject to Texas Parks and Wildlife regulations.  Investigators say the facility has not met their requirements and for that reason have decided not to renew their permit, essentially shutting down the deer breeding portion of the ranch.
    Steve Lightfoot, spokesperson for Texas Parks and Wildlife told 3 News by phone, "we've conducted several inspections and herd investigations into this facility and many of the requirements that deer breeders are required to have, including unique markings and identifiers on animals, tracking movement records have not been met."
So based on this comment by Mr. Lightfoot, it doesn't appear to matter who owns the permits.  They're basing their decision to deny renewing the permits on how the facility is not meeting specific breeder requirements and TPW regulations.  So unless these owners can prove these allegations are false, who owns the licensing and permits is irrelevant.
This would be where you need to really put your thinking cap on. Regardless of ownership, consider what they are saying and what I have told you. I could take something very minor and with just a few choice words make it sound like a travesty. Causing over 2 million in damages to the ranch over some so called improper tagging or whatever is ridiculous.
Again, if this is really all about preventing the spread of chronic waste disease then why the false claims, why not mention who the owners are? They think the ranch has something to hide. It doesn't. They keep making threats of further investigation (most likely federal) over the exotics. The family welcomes a federal investigation into the ranch. All of that documentation is already secured with the attorneys just incase they do decide to show up and be shady about it.
It's a cut throat business to be in down here to say the least. The competition is not apposed to trying and drag your name and reputation through the dirt in order to try and help themselves. That's just the nature of the game. My issue comes in when that competition starts using tax payers resources to do it.
Consider this, tax payers payed for the investigation, the slaughter and all the testing. Losses will be written off by the business most likely anyway. Bottom line is tax payers suffer for the games the big boys play.
 

aggiealum

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397666/breeders-and-the-future-of-texas-white-tails/20#post_3545379
This would be where you need to really put your thinking cap on. Regardless of ownership, consider what they are saying and what I have told you. I could take something very minor and with just a few choice words make it sound like a travesty. Causing over 2 million in damages to the ranch over some so called improper tagging or whatever is ridiculous.
Again, if this is really all about preventing the spread of chronic waste disease then why the false claims, why not mention who the owners are? They think the ranch has something to hide. It doesn't. They keep making threats of further investigation (most likely federal) over the exotics. The family welcomes a federal investigation into the ranch. All of that documentation is already secured with the attorneys just incase they do decide to show up and be shady about it.
It's a cut throat business to be in down here to say the least. The competition is not apposed to trying and drag your name and reputation through the dirt in order to try and help themselves. That's just the nature of the game. My issue comes in when that competition starts using tax payers resources to do it.
Consider this, tax payers payed for the investigation, the slaughter and all the testing. Losses will be written off by the business most likely anyway. Bottom line is tax payers suffer for the games the big boys play.
You keep harping on this CWD disease. This investigator states they are pulling their permits because they're violating requirements and regulations breeders must follow. When did this Lightfoot guy say anything about taking their permits away because they suspected their stock had this disease? I agree that them coming in and performing this kill sounds rather suspicious, and apparently looks quite excessive. If these owners feel this was some sort of "setup" contrived by one of their competitors, why aren't they speaking out to the media voicing their suspicions and providing proof to contradict the TPW claims? They'll surely be out of business if they plan to drag this through the court system. It may take a couple of years just to get the case on the docket. All the while, they have no permits to breed, which essentially shuts their operation down. Exotic game ranches are a dime a dozen in South Texas and the Texas Hill Country. Do a Google search just in the Kerrville, Rocksprings, Junction area, and you can probably find four or five. You mentioned the King Ranch (which has been around since when, the 1800's?), and in Kerrville you have the Y.O. Ranch. Those facilities cater to a completely different clientele than these "smaller" outfits like your friends. I guarantee you an operation like The King Ranch doesn't feel threatened about these smaller ranches taking customers. If these owners can prove some larger outfit has direct connections to TPW Management, then they should have no problems recouping their losses by suing the State for damages.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member

You keep harping on this CWD disease.  This investigator states they are pulling their permits because they're violating requirements and regulations breeders must follow.  When did this Lightfoot guy say anything about taking their permits away because they suspected their stock had this disease?  I agree that them coming in and performing this kill sounds rather suspicious, and apparently looks quite excessive. If these owners feel this was some sort of "setup" contrived by one of their competitors, why aren't they speaking out to the media voicing their suspicions and providing proof to contradict the TPW claims?  They'll surely be out of business if they plan to drag this through the court system.  It may take a couple of years just to get the case on the docket.  All the while, they have no permits to breed, which essentially shuts their operation down.  Exotic game ranches are a dime a dozen in South Texas and the Texas Hill Country.  Do a Google search just in the Kerrville, Rocksprings, Junction area, and you can probably find four or five.  You mentioned the King Ranch (which has been around since when, the 1800's?), and in Kerrville you have the Y.O. Ranch.  Those facilities cater to a completely different clientele than these "smaller" outfits like your friends.  I guarantee you an operation like The King Ranch doesn't feel threatened about these smaller ranches taking customers.  If these owners can prove some larger outfit has direct connections to TPW Management, then they should have no problems recouping their losses by suing the State for damages.
The only violations that I am aware of is that I think there were a couple of young deer that were born from the program that had never even left the property which had gotten mixed up with what the tag said and what the paper work said. I'm not entirely sure of those specifics or who was responsible. But it is what it is. They slaughtered over 250+ premium white tails and dozens of very expensive exotics, property as well as damaged reputations to the business over it. Seemed a little extreme to me.
Some of these ranches are a dime a dozen but not many do the kind of business that my associates do. Their breeders are every bit as magnificent as those you can find on the King Ranch and a little bit cheaper. The King Ranch is the largest in the nation and just a hop skip a jump from my house. I'm not saying that ranch is involved because I could never prove that. I'm just saying that once you hit a certain level then people begin to take notice.
The decision to make a public statement by the owners is still being considered. To be honest with you there are some threats being thrown around out there and the family needs to be careful and consider their own safety. They don't intend to be bullied around by the TPWD. They already got the deer. So be it. What happened to the other animals and how it's effected the families of those who work at the ranch is another story. They just aren't going to bend over for their competition without a fight. People slandering the business has been going on for a long time. Yet, untill this happened the business showed strong, continuous growth year after year.
Edit: I should clarify that the White Tail program is seperate entity within the ranch. Different owner then that of the property and the exotics. Feds regulate exotics, state regulates native game.
 

aggiealum

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397666/breeders-and-the-future-of-texas-white-tails/20#post_3545394
The only violations that I am aware of is that I think there were a couple of young deer that were born from the program that had never even left the property which had gotten mixed up with what the tag said and what the paper work said. I'm not entirely sure of those specifics or who was responsible. But it is what it is. They slaughtered over 250+ premium white tails and dozens of very expensive exotics, property as well as damaged reputations to the business over it. Seemed a little extreme to me.
Some of these ranches are a dime a dozen but not many do the kind of business that my associates do. Their breeders are every bit as magnificent as those you can find on the King Ranch and a little bit cheaper. The King Ranch is the largest in the nation and just a hop skip a jump from my house. I'm not saying that ranch is involved because I could never prove that. I'm just saying that once you hit a certain level then people begin to take notice.
The decision to make a public statement by the owners is still being considered. To be honest with you there are some threats being thrown around out there and the family needs to be careful and consider their own safety. They don't intend to be bullied around by the TPWD. They already got the deer. So be it. What happened to the other animals and how it's effected the families of those who work at the ranch is another story. They just aren't going to bend over for their competition without a fight. People slandering the business has been going on for a long time. Yet, untill this happened the business showed strong, continuous growth year after year.
Edit: I should clarify that the White Tail program is seperate entity within the ranch. Different owner then that of the property and the exotics. Feds regulate exotics, state regulates native game.
So do they even breed these exotics, and if so, are the permits for those specific deer affected as they appear to be for the Whitetail stock? Don't tell me. The owner of the permits for the Whitetail stock is this Rich individual. I personally don't agree with any of these ranches creating what I call "mutant" deer simply to make a profit. Guess that's because I've never cared about setting some record by shooting a B&C rack to get my name entered into some record book. I've always hunted deer for their meat. If I was fortunate to shoot a buck with a nice rack, so be it. But at least I knew that deer grew up naturally and earned his distinction by being smart enough to elude predators that kept him alive so long. These exotic ranchers stick these deer in pens, keep breeding them until they get some livestock with these massive racks, then let them get selectively killed by some millionaire who probably couldn't hunt a wild deer to save his life. All they're doing is buying a record. Ultimately it hurts the sport because when you put up all these high fences to keep these exotic breeds in their respective ranches, you're also keeping the normal wild livestock out, which reduces their capability to breed and increase their lineage. So the everyday hunter who wants to lease land from some rancher to hunt the deer season, has to pay higher prices to lease the land, then gets stuck with smaller and inferior livestock. I remember I used to be able to buy 16 oz. of venison jerky for around $8 - $12. Now, you're lucky to find it under $25. Anytime we head over to San Antonio or The Hill Country, we always stop at the Buckee's in Luling for gas and refreshments. They sell various types of jerky, anywhere from beef, buffalo, turkey, elk, and venison. The last time I stopped there I noticed they no longer were selling venison jerky. I asked the clerk why they didn't have any, and she said, "We can't buy it at a price that makes it economically affordable to sell. Based on what we'd have to pay for it on the open market, we'd have to sell it for $45 for 16 oz."
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
So do they even breed these exotics, and if so, are the permits for those specific deer affected as they appear to be for the Whitetail stock?  Don't tell me.  The owner of the permits for the Whitetail stock is this Rich individual.    I personally don't agree with any of these ranches creating what I call "mutant" deer simply to make a profit.  Guess that's because I've never cared about setting some record by shooting a B&C rack to get my name entered into some record book.  I've always hunted deer for their meat.  If I was fortunate to shoot a buck with a nice rack, so be it.  But at least I knew that deer grew up naturally and earned his distinction by being smart enough to elude predators that kept him alive so long.  These exotic ranchers stick these deer in pens, keep breeding them until they get some livestock with these massive racks, then let them get selectively killed by some millionaire who probably couldn't hunt a wild deer to save his life.  All they're doing is buying a record.  Ultimately it hurts the sport because when you put up all these high fences to keep these exotic breeds in their respective ranches, you're also keeping the normal wild livestock out, which reduces their capability to breed and increase their lineage.  So the everyday hunter who wants to lease land from some rancher to hunt the deer season, has to pay higher prices to lease the land, then gets stuck with smaller and inferior livestock.  I remember I used to be able to buy 16 oz. of venison jerky for around $8 - $12.  Now, you're lucky to find it under $25.  Anytime we head over to San Antonio or The Hill Country, we always stop at the Buckee's in Luling for gas and refreshments.  They sell various types of jerky, anywhere from beef, buffalo, turkey, elk, and venison.  The last time I stopped there I noticed they no longer were selling venison jerky.  I asked the clerk why they didn't have any, and she said, "We can't buy it at a price that makes it economically affordable to sell.  Based on what we'd have to pay for it on the open market, we'd have to sell it for $45 for 16 oz."
Yes, there are federal permits for all of the exotic animals. And they are pretty stringent about those requirements. There's really no fudging around with that stuff unless you're just looking to lose your multi milliom dollar investment. As mentioned all that documentation is secured with the attorneys just incase.
The only permits that were non renewed were for the state native white tails. Though I'm not sure how it hurts the sport considering the growth the sport has seen. And wild herds don't seem to be in danger of being whiped out anytime soon as long as CWD is kept at bay.
I will say that the majority of hunting/harvesting is done specifically for the meat. Not all of the animals taken are specifically for sport. Many are sold to processors who simply butcher and sell meat, many are sold to these other dime a dozen ranchers.
Animals aren't shot willy nilly style. As mentioned animals are selected when they are ready to be harvested or when its necessary to thin a herd or perhaps if an animal has been shunned from the herd.
 

jay0705

Well-Known Member
I get the whole ranch hunting thing. I think where alot of people have issue w it is the fact where is the true idea of hunting? Hunting isnt just killing something.its the process you go through to kill an animal. Scouting, food plots, stand placement, ect. With these ranches you know giant deer are there, its not a matter of maybe its a fact. So the illusion of the unknown is already taken away and for atleast me thats a huge part of why I hunt, Idk what I will see. Maybe ole freak nasty or maybe a squirrel lol. But I know its up to me and only me to do my homework and hope I put myself in a good spot, but there are no guarantees.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
I get the whole ranch hunting thing. I think where alot of people have issue w it is the fact where is the true idea of hunting? Hunting isnt just killing something.its the process you go through to kill an animal. Scouting, food plots, stand placement, ect. With these ranches you know giant deer are there, its not a matter of maybe its a fact. So the illusion of the unknown is already taken away and for atleast me thats a huge part of why I hunt, Idk what I will see. Maybe ole freak nasty or maybe a squirrel lol. But I know its up to me and only me to do my homework and hope I put myself in a good spot, but there are no guarantees.
It's all in the eye of the beholder. Many of these rich guys who can afford to shoot the bigger game are actually pretty serious hunters with much more experience than the average guy. They travel all over the world looking for game and have simply gotten bored with what they find on state or other private land.
 
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