Bubble Wand / Bubble Curtain

[poniegirl]

Originally Posted by Tiberius
I would think the reason the seahorse likes the bubbles is the extra buoyancy. They probably like the way the bubbles feel all over them. It is their jacuzzi! I have had a bubble wand in my 110 for many years. I always liked how it came up between a bunch of rocks. I have had fish depart from me but it wasn't from the bubbles.
You know, I never could get that seahorse to talk! So no telling what her real purpose was.
I do know that she did not treat the PH flows the same.
As I said, the bar served a purpose for me. In a 55 gallon (long and narrow), you have the front 5 inches of sand (maybe) and you have rock on the rest. Dead spots are a very real and irritating issue. To get the movement needed to ensure these spots got some flow, this did the trick. Sweeping the substrate without blowing the fish out of the water.
I have read mixed (outside of this board) ideas on aerating with bubbles, or just having them because they are pleasing to the eye. There is always enough info out there to form an opinion.
I'm only sharing experience.

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by ReefForBrains
I have read the same as everyone else and been playing in salt for a quite some time now. I am careful when I say this, but I really dont think its all that risky to have bubbles.
I hear horror stories and many that quote ancient passages from old books and surley someone can argue any side of an argument nowadays, I just think its become urban legend and grossly exaggerated in the frequentcy.
I agree, I dont think bubbles are really much danger to fish health. if the fish was in a complete bath of micro bubbles then maybe. but there isnt much chance of a medium sized bubble sticking to anything much less a fish. The only thing I truly feel that is a proven (to me) draw back (this is just my opinion) is the protien transport qualities of the bubbles, of course a good turnover rate at the top of the tank would negate this. People say bubbles will stick to fishes gills and kill them.... fish gills rub gently as they pass water the sheer mechanics of this action is going to dislodge bubbles, so I have a really hard time believeing the validity of that statement. Maybe for seahorses ingestion is a danger I dont know enough to discredit that statement, but I know fish swallow and burp out bubbles all the time, I see no real threat there.
So in summation I think bubbles are the black cat legend of marine tanks, I dont think they are a serious danger, though they can and will carry protiens to the surface of the tank. In a reef they arent much use because of the turn over rate (would blow them all over the place making them unsightly). They arent usefull for aeration purposes as they just dont have the turnover potential needed. If some one finds them estheticly appealing then why not?

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by PonieGirl
You know, I never could get that seahorse to talk! So no telling what her real purpose was.
I do know that she did not treat the PH flows the same.
As I said, the bar served a purpose for me. In a 55 gallon (long and narrow), you have the front 5 inches of sand (maybe) and you have rock on the rest. Dead spots are a very real and irritating issue. To get the movement needed to ensure these spots got some flow, this did the trick. Sweeping the substrate without blowing the fish out of the water.
I have read mixed (outside of this board) ideas on aerating with bubbles, or just having them because they are pleasing to the eye. There is always enough info out there to form an opinion.
I'm only sharing experience.
LOL....I wish I spoke "seahorse", some of the looks I get from Valiant are extremely vocal....translating them is another story.
Okay.....the "detective" is on the Job!...
It was a cloudy tuesday morning......I had a hang over that wouldn't go away.....just like the tall dark handsome stranger who caused the problem in the first place.
Then the door burst open! Finally....a client....and my ticket to another hang over.
The two were bent on finding out the truth about spray bars and fillies. As I started taking down notes....three more burst through the door. They insisted that there was no need for an investigation! The spray bar was a death trap......
By the time I had finished getting details from the first two....there were fifteen people crammed into my corner office all demanding they knew the solution to the spray bar mystery.......
I told them I was on the job.....
After the angry mob dispersed I locked my door....I needed time to think....and another tall dark handsome stranger......
This was going to be a hard case to crack. What was a spray bar......
and why did the fillies need it in the first place......
Pouch Emphysema
As with internal and external gas bubble disease, the causes of pouch emphysema are highly disputed within the seahorse hobby. It was once thought that the condition could be traced to embryonic that is not expelled during labour rotting inside of the pouch. This decomposition process would yield gasses that inflate the pouch. Due to the fact that the condition often shows up in 'virgin' male seahorses, however, other theorized causes may be more reasonable. These theories include micro-bubbles in the water column that can collect in the pouch during mating rituals and bacterial infections, the waste products of which include gases that can fill the pouch. This type of infection is often attributed to recurring pouch emphysema.
More recent research, however, has traced a more likely cause to a biological process known as the hydration of CO2(g), carbon dioxide gas, to H2CO3(aq), carbonic acid. This process occurs on a cellular level. An enzyme known as carbonic anhydrase catalyzes the hydration of CO2(g) with H2O(l) to H2CO3(aq), carbonic acid. When this reaction is disturbed, however, CO2(g) is not converted into H2CO3(aq), thus leading to a buildup of carbon dioxide gas in the pouch tissues. The exact cause of the disruption of this process, however, remains unknown. In humans, stress can catalyze this type of problem, so stress may be a cause in seahorse gas imbalances.
GOOD GRAVY!!!!!! These people were nuts!!!! I'd have to look up and old friend of mine.....that owes me a favor.........
......but that could wait.......because my tall dark handsome stranger was waiting.......
:happyfish

 

[reefkprz]

you read WAYYY too many murder mystery romance novels....

good info though

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ
you read WAYYY too many murder mystery romance novels....

good info though

Thanks!!
just wait until chapter 2 comes out!!!!!

 

[tiberius]

Originally Posted by Rykna
LOL....I wish I spoke "seahorse", some of the looks I get from Valiant are extremely vocal....translating them is another story.
Okay.....the "detective" is on the Job!...
It was a cloudy tuesday morning......I had a hang over that wouldn't go away.....just like the tall dark handsome stranger who caused the problem in the first place.
Then the door burst open! Finally....a client....and my ticket to another hang over.
The two were bent on finding out the truth about spray bars and fillies. As I started taking down notes....three more burst through the door. They insisted that there was no need for an investigation! The spray bar was a death trap......
By the time I had finished getting details from the first two....there were fifteen people crammed into my corner office all demanding they knew the solution to the spray bar mystery.......
I told them I was on the job.....
After the angry mob dispersed I locked my door....I needed time to think....and another tall dark handsome stranger......
This was going to be a hard case to crack. What was a spray bar......
and why did the fillies need it in the first place......
Pouch Emphysema
As with internal and external gas bubble disease, the causes of pouch emphysema are highly disputed within the seahorse hobby. It was once thought that the condition could be traced to embryonic that is not expelled during labour rotting inside of the pouch. This decomposition process would yield gasses that inflate the pouch. Due to the fact that the condition often shows up in 'virgin' male seahorses, however, other theorized causes may be more reasonable. These theories include micro-bubbles in the water column that can collect in the pouch during mating rituals and bacterial infections, the waste products of which include gases that can fill the pouch. This type of infection is often attributed to recurring pouch emphysema.
More recent research, however, has traced a more likely cause to a biological process known as the hydration of CO2(g), carbon dioxide gas, to H2CO3(aq), carbonic acid. This process occurs on a cellular level. An enzyme known as carbonic anhydrase catalyzes the hydration of CO2(g) with H2O(l) to H2CO3(aq), carbonic acid. When this reaction is disturbed, however, CO2(g) is not converted into H2CO3(aq), thus leading to a buildup of carbon dioxide gas in the pouch tissues. The exact cause of the disruption of this process, however, remains unknown. In humans, stress can catalyze this type of problem, so stress may be a cause in seahorse gas imbalances.
GOOD GRAVY!!!!!! These people were nuts!!!! I'd have to look up and old friend of mine.....that owes me a favor.........
......but that could wait.......because my tall dark handsome stranger was waiting.......
:happyfish
Wow! I really enjoyed that! I don't have seahorses but it sure is amazing that you can find this info on them. Excellent detective work!

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by Tiberius
Wow! I really enjoyed that! I don't have seahorses but it sure is amazing that you can find this info on them. Excellent detective work!

Thanks!!! :cheer:

 

[rykna]

The cloudy Tuesday morning had turned into a thunderstorm....as they say "When it rains, it pours".
The old friend of mine.....that owes me a favor....had gone to the same place as the rain water ends up. Police had found his body washed up and the South Dale beach. Some one had rittled his body with a tommy gun....he never had a chance. The down pour had washed away any evidence, but Joe didn't have many friends....and I had a idea who had done him in......
Joe had invented a new contraption.....a spray bar.....He need more funds to market the item, but he ran into bad luck at the horse races. His horse came in last.....he told me someone had rigged the race.....his horse died shortly after the race.....the police found bubbles all over the horse's body.......
External Gas Bubble Disease
External gas bubble disease (EGBD) is thought to be caused by either bacterial infection (wherein waste CO2 produced by the infecting bacteria becomes trapped underneath the skin) or by gas super-saturation of the water in which the seahorses reside. Gas super-saturation causes problems similar to the bends, which affects SCUBA divers. The situation, wherein gas levels in the water are much higher than normally possible (caused by limited areas for gas escape), causes gas bubbles to form anywhere possible. Because the pressure inside of a seahorse is lower than the pressure of gas super-saturated water, the gas bubbles emerge directly under the skin of the affected seahorse. Since the air bubbles cannot pass through the skin, they remain stranded there until treated or until they can be reabsorbed by the seahorse's own body.
Symptoms:
subcutaneous (under the skin) air bubbles that may occur anywhere on the head, body, or prehensile tail
buoyancy and movement complications
The bubbles can cause stress on a seahorse as problems with buoyancy and movement arise. If left unchecked, the disease may eventually cause death in the infected specimen due to this stress. The appearance of external gas bubble disease can be a sign of more serious problems. Possibly significant, EGBD is common more in wild-caught seahorses than in captive-bred seahorses. This may be due to a difference in pressure between deeper ocean habitats and relatively shallow aquariums. At Chicago's Shedd Aquarium, all specimens of one species kept in tanks shallower than three feet soon succumbed to EGBD.
After taking statements from the stable hands I thought it was time to find myself some bubbly....

 

[tiberius]

Will there be a Chapter 3?!!!!

 

[poniegirl]

I hope that when we look at info on EGBD, we realize that it is not air bubbles attaching to the seahorse, likewise with IGBD it is not that a seahorse snicked up a bubble and viola, a disease.
I have read and reread info on these diseases (for years) and my personal opinion is that the common factors in tanks that have GBD issues are poor water quality.
A bubble wand is not likely to over-oxygenate a tank. The bubbles are on the large side.
I think we tend to keep seahorses in tanks that have too little water flow, because we are convinced they cannot swim strongly and the flow will stress them. We overfeed because, let's face it, seahorses aren't terribly entertaining and the snicking is. To my mind, this is a lethal combo.

 

[rykna]

Absoulutely!!!!
That's what my investigation has turned up, the bubbles have absoulutely nothing to do with hurting horses.
It has to do with exactly what you said....when a tank is not set up for proper conditions for the occupants, especially if the flow is low and the quality of the water degrades, the end result is a tank full of sick stressed fish due to poor water quality which become vunerable to any diseaeses that are lurking in the tank.
Therefore...Bubble wands do not cause seahorses to get sick.....it is the water quality that leads to a weakened immune system and eventually death.
Case closed

:happyfish

 

[rykna]

bump
:happyfish

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ
I agree, I dont think bubbles are really much danger to fish health. if the fish was in a complete bath of micro bubbles then maybe. but there isnt much chance of a medium sized bubble sticking to anything much less a fish. The only thing I truly feel that is a proven (to me) draw back (this is just my opinion) is the protien transport qualities of the bubbles, of course a good turnover rate at the top of the tank would negate this. People say bubbles will stick to fishes gills and kill them.... fish gills rub gently as they pass water the sheer mechanics of this action is going to dislodge bubbles, so I have a really hard time believeing the validity of that statement. Maybe for seahorses ingestion is a danger I dont know enough to discredit that statement, but I know fish swallow and burp out bubbles all the time, I see no real threat there.
So in summation I think bubbles are the black cat legend of marine tanks, I dont think they are a serious danger, though they can and will carry protiens to the surface of the tank. In a reef they arent much use because of the turn over rate (would blow them all over the place making them unsightly). They arent usefull for aeration purposes as they just dont have the turnover potential needed. If some one finds them estheticly appealing then why not?
So basicly your saying I was on the right track.....

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ
So basicly your saying I was on the right track.....
Nope, just the opposite. The bubbles have absolutely nothing to do with a horse's health. The problem is caused when a horses' immune system is weakened by situations such as stress, water quality, nutrition, lack of QT new tanks mates, and many other situtations.
Most external air bubbles enter the horse when it has skin leasions or infections, or for males when it pouch becomes bloated, which is a internal problem not external.
Air bubbles are present in all tanks, for a very good reason~airation and adding flow. Which is why we use protein skimmers in our salt tanks; which create mountains of bubbles in the return flow.
Where you could run into problems ~ no.1 if you have no experience with keeping water qualites ballanced, creating a suitable habit for your tank occupants, awareness of illness, and nutrional needs to keep a healthy happy seahorse. You have set yourself up for failure; which is a big reason why seahorses are not recommened for beginners.
The part that I do agree with you is that by adding more bubbles you are increasing the chances, if your horse were to become sick, that it would be infected by any of the bubble diseases.

:happyfish

 

[rykna]

bump

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by Rykna
Nope, just the opposite. The bubbles have absolutely nothing to do with a horse's health. The problem is caused when a horses' immune system is weakened by situations such as stress, water quality,
Um..... I think if the bubbles are depositing protiens smothering the tank water quality suffers wich was the point of my post. I dont see how its the opposite or am I missing something?

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ
I would like to mention a big draw back of bubbles in any marine tank not just horse tanks is, think of how your protien skimmer works, protiens attach to the outside of bubbles thebn get collected. all the bubble are doing in a marine tank if pulling protiens up to the surface and depositing them there reducing the air exchange rate due to surface tension increase, basicly smothering the tank.
Yes, I reread your post. My apologies. Yes this is exactly what I was getting at, for the most part.
I've been married 11 years and still can't communicate with my husband!!! I can't count how many times we have argued over a subject only to discover that we had the same opinion.

When I plugged the bubbler in, this is exactly what happened. With in the hour the tank surface looked like the mucky surf areas on the beach. So I removed it.
Hmmm....interesting thought....the ocean is a contained eco system. Freshwater is not. So considering the differences between FW and SW would that be the main reason why the bubblers and more suited for FW? Because in SW tanks as you said the surface tention does not allow the bubbles to be realeased, but the density of FW is much less than salt, and less surface tension increase, allowing the bubbles to benefit the FW tank. :thinking:

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by Rykna
Yes, I reread your post. My apologies. Yes this is exactly what I was getting at, for the most part.
I've been married 11 years and still can't communicate with my husband!!! I can't count how many times we have argued over a subject only to discover that we had the same opinion.

I dont consider it argueing I call it discussing. its the only way we all learn is by talking about different opinions, and expiriences. just because we may not agree on something doesnt automaticly make it an argument in my book it makes it a discussion. I try to be open minded and look at the facts that every one presents for their opinions and always try to keep in mind that expiriences differ from person to person and tank to tank. heck sometime what works in one tank doesnt in another for the same person. like my friend with xenia, two tanks maintained almost identicly he couldnt keep xenia alive in one tank but it thrived in the other, we never found a conclusive reason for it.

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by ophiura
If you want to provide something for the seahorses, put in a variety of "hitching posts" whether coral skeleton, plants (even artificial), etc. I think that would be a less risky choice.
I wasn't using the wand as a hitching post....although if I was considering it I'd agree with you. :happyfish

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ
I dont consider it argueing I call it discussing. its the only way we all learn is by talking about different opinions.
Absoulutely!

I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I was agruing...I greatly appreciate your input and willingness to discuss subjects, as you said to gain knowledge from eachother.