Building sump/refugium out of two 10 Gallon Tanks

richamc01

richamc01

Member
So i have two 10 gallon tanks that i want to connect and convert into a sump/refugium. Ive drawn up what i have in mind. Please leave any comments you may have. I am new to the whole sump/refugium world. Ive spent hours researching what exactly want and this is what I came up with. Ill start at the beginning. The skimmer sits at the very beginning in its own space. This space will be dry. Im only putting the skimmer in the sump because i dont have any spare room under my tank for the skimmer to be placed outside of the sump.
So the skimmer sits at the very beginning but draws water from the first chamber right after the filter sock. I have designed the first chamber similar to the Aqueon Pro Flex model 2 sump that they offer. I really liked their design with the bubble defuser and wanted that in my design. The overflow hangs on the tank and flows down into the bubble defuser and then flows through the filter sock, filling up the first chamber. It then flows over and through the bio-balls. It then goes under the first wall and fills where i will place my heater. It will flow over that wall and under the next where I will place a sponge to get rid of any bubbles.
I will connect the two tanks with a 2 inch piece of clear PVC so i can see if it ever gets clogged. It Then fill the refugium and flows over the wall and under another where there will be another sponge to further reduce and bubbles. Then the last chamber will have my return pump.
Both the Inlet and the Outlet will have ball valves so that i will be able to adjust the flow as needed. The outlet will have a check valve in the event of a power outage the water will not flow back down into the refugium and over flow. Both tanks should have plenty of headroom in the event of a power outage. I should be able to hold somewhere of 7 gallons of extra water if the power should go out while im asleep.
Please let me know what kind of thoughts you guys have on this system. If it will work or not or any flaws i may have.
Thank you in advance for any pointers.



 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Hey Welcome to the forum!!!!!!!
Looking over your drawings, and I have to keep opening your drawings in other windows to blow them up, but from what I initially have looked at the design isn't efficient........I'd advise going to melevsreef.com and doing your research there which will give you a very good idea on design, but will point out a few things making it inefficient and wasting valuable space. I know this can be a daunting task, but with good resources it can be a relatively simple process, and the site I advised is Marks site and is very detailed IMHO..........So again take everything with a grain of salt I say, but check out Marks' site.
I'll start on the 10 sump tank......The skimmer shouldn't be a dry chamber.....The skimmer should be fed the rawest; dirtiest water possible and that would be the water coming straight from the DT, from the overflow.......The other thing I want to point out there is no need for a ball valve on your drain line.....That line should never be restricted unless your running an appropriate overflow design.....Without knowing much about the overflow design I can say that the basic overflow that most run aren't designed to have a ball valve in that position.....There would be no need for the valve to shut water flow off to the sump in that position and restricting flow to the sump during operation, at some point could be disastrous IMHO.........
Another flaw I see is 1 the size........If you have a 55 gallon setup isn't it possible to squeeze a 20L or a bit bigger under the stand......
With that said I see wasted space on bio balls....Totally not needed..! thing I'm curious about is I see your skimmer pump located under the filter sock.....What type of skimmer are you running......My other area I see not working correctly is you have the sump shown higher than the fuge......The better way would be to have the fuge elevated and drain back into the return pump chamber in the sump section.....
I think the design in general would be revamped if you go to melevsreef.dot and see an efficient setup.....You could easily do a nice setup, more efficiently using space availability.......There isn't any need for all the mechanical filtration your using in the sump and you really only need a skimmer compartment which could incorporate a filter sock for catching larger debris, and the skimmer could occupy that same chamber and you could put your heater and return pump in the other chamber and utilize the other 10 gallon tank completely as a fuge instead of sharing it with your fuge......
Back awhile ago, if you search the DIY forum here you'll see where a bunch of us got together and built a sump/fuge setup for Flower......
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Sorry for all the pics......In the pics, the black (smoked) acrylic box is (was) the fuge.....I chose to build in black since it would be bombarded with light, but it shows that working with limited space can be a challenge, but black box is nothing more than a fuge.......The fuge is taller than the sump itself and the fuge gravity drains slowly back into the sump.......Again maximize your space.....
 
richamc01

richamc01

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/391426/building-sump-refugium-out-of-two-10-gallon-tanks#post_3471174
Hey Welcome to the forum!!!!!!!
Looking over your drawings, and I have to keep opening your drawings in other windows to blow them up, but from what I initially have looked at the design isn't efficient........I'd advise going to melevsreef.com and doing your research there which will give you a very good idea on design, but will point out a few things making it inefficient and wasting valuable space. I know this can be a daunting task, but with good resources it can be a relatively simple process, and the site I advised is Marks site and is very detailed IMHO..........So again take everything with a grain of salt I say, but check out Marks' site.
I'll start on the 10 sump tank......The skimmer shouldn't be a dry chamber.....The skimmer should be fed the rawest; dirtiest water possible and that would be the water coming straight from the DT, from the overflow.......The other thing I want to point out there is no need for a ball valve on your drain line.....That line should never be restricted unless your running an appropriate overflow design.....Without knowing much about the overflow design I can say that the basic overflow that most run aren't designed to have a ball valve in that position.....There would be no need for the valve to shut water flow off to the sump in that position and restricting flow to the sump during operation, at some point could be disastrous IMHO.........
Another flaw I see is 1 the size........If you have a 55 gallon setup isn't it possible to squeeze a 20L or a bit bigger under the stand......
With that said I see wasted space on bio balls....Totally not needed..! thing I'm curious about is I see your skimmer pump located under the filter sock.....What type of skimmer are you running......My other area I see not working correctly is you have the sump shown higher than the fuge......The better way would be to have the fuge elevated and drain back into the return pump chamber in the sump section.....
I think the design in general would be revamped if you go to melevsreef.dot and see an efficient setup.....You could easily do a nice setup, more efficiently using space availability.......There isn't any need for all the mechanical filtration your using in the sump and you really only need a skimmer compartment which could incorporate a filter sock for catching larger debris, and the skimmer could occupy that same chamber and you could put your heater and return pump in the other chamber and utilize the other 10 gallon tank completely as a fuge instead of sharing it with your fuge......
Back awhile ago, if you search the DIY forum here you'll see where a bunch of us got together and built a sump/fuge setup for Flower......
Thank you for the fast response. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
starting the the 10 Gal sump tank...the skimmer is only in a dry chamber because i dont have space under my DT. I dont currently have a skimmer. The 55 gallon tank is currently a freshwater tank as are the two 10 gallon tanks. With that said, I want to get a skimmer that utilizes an intake pump like i have drawn. That could definitely change as im still just in the designing process. But I placed the skimmer pump in that location because that is the dirtiest and rawest water in the sump. Granted it does go through the socks first but those are mainly to just catch any large objects that end up in the sump. Also the ball valve on the drain line is mainly for emergencies...say the power goes out in the middle of the day when i am home...I can just shut it. Im not sure what overflow im going to with either. i was just planning to buy once since they are relatively inexpensive.
The size...The reason that I would like to use two 10 gallon tanks is because there isnt enough room under my stand for anything bigger. My stand has a divider between the two cabinets and my plan was to just drill a hole through the divider to connect the two tanks. I thought that bio-balls were a good thing to use? I could be wrong as i have never used them...Why are they not needed? I just thought it would just be an additional level of filtration. I would much rather have way too much filtration than not enough. I also plan to keep the Canister filter that i currently have running on this new saltwater setup. the sump is only higher that the fuge because i wanted gravity to do its thing. I can definitely swap the two around but then where does this skimmer go? since it needs the dirtiest water and the first water that enters the sump, im not sure where to place it. I would definitely like to use the other 10 gallon just as the fuge.
Thank you again.
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
You said your currently running the 55 gallon as a freshwater tank......Well it seems that when time comes to drain it down and clean it up it'll come off the stand.......
What a perfect time since the stand will be move able to take the center brace out of the stand and stuff a good size tank underneath it.........
 
richamc01

richamc01

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/391426/building-sump-refugium-out-of-two-10-gallon-tanks#post_3471217
You said your currently running the 55 gallon as a freshwater tank......Well it seems that when time comes to drain it down and clean it up it'll come off the stand.......
What a perfect time since the stand will be move able to take the center brace out of the stand and stuff a good size tank underneath it.........

No. The "center brace" does not come out. The biggest tank that I will able to fit in either side is a 10 gallon. Here are some pictures of my stand to help you better understand
.....





Kind of hard to take a picture of but you get the idea. I was planning on just drilling through that center piece to connect the two tanks.
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Ok.....So for stupidities sake I'm curious how that center brace is held into place.....Look on the back side and see if there's some pocket screws holding that together.......Even if that's not how they put the thing together, there is no reason that back of the stand couldn't be opened temporarily and a good size tank or sump slid in from the back......Another crazy question for you.....What does the top of the stand look like.....Is it open or is it a solid top stand........
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Looking at it closer that inside vertical support could easily be removed and the stand could be reinforced easily........
 
richamc01

richamc01

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/391426/building-sump-refugium-out-of-two-10-gallon-tanks#post_3471224
Ok.....So for stupidities sake I'm curious how that center brace is held into place.....Look on the back side and see if there's some pocket screws holding that together.......Even if that's not how they put the thing together, there is no reason that back of the stand couldn't be opened temporarily and a good size tank or sump slid in from the back......Another crazy question for you.....What does the top of the stand look like.....Is it open or is it a solid top stand........

I do like the stand the way it is and i would prefer to not have to do much to the stand. I just want to drill a hole for the PVC and be done with it. The top of the stand is a solid piece. and i believe the center is held in with the pocket screws.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richamc01 http:///t/391426/building-sump-refugium-out-of-two-10-gallon-tanks#post_3471200
Thank you for the fast response. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
starting the the 10 Gal sump tank...the skimmer is only in a dry chamber because i dont have space under my DT. I dont currently have a skimmer. The 55 gallon tank is currently a freshwater tank as are the two 10 gallon tanks. With that said, I want to get a skimmer that utilizes an intake pump like i have drawn. That could definitely change as im still just in the designing process. But I placed the skimmer pump in that location because that is the dirtiest and rawest water in the sump. Granted it does go through the socks first but those are mainly to just catch any large objects that end up in the sump. Also the ball valve on the drain line is mainly for emergencies...say the power goes out in the middle of the day when i am home...I can just shut it. Im not sure what overflow im going to with either. i was just planning to buy once since they are relatively inexpensive.
The size...The reason that I would like to use two 10 gallon tanks is because there isnt enough room under my stand for anything bigger. My stand has a divider between the two cabinets and my plan was to just drill a hole through the divider to connect the two tanks. I thought that bio-balls were a good thing to use? I could be wrong as i have never used them...Why are they not needed? I just thought it would just be an additional level of filtration. I would much rather have way too much filtration than not enough. I also plan to keep the Canister filter that i currently have running on this new saltwater setup. the sump is only higher that the fuge because i wanted gravity to do its thing. I can definitely swap the two around but then where does this skimmer go? since it needs the dirtiest water and the first water that enters the sump, im not sure where to place it. I would definitely like to use the other 10 gallon just as the fuge.
Thank you again.
On a different note...any answers to these questions?
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richamc01 http:///t/391426/building-sump-refugium-out-of-two-10-gallon-tanks#post_3471226
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/391426/building-sump-refugium-out-of-two-10-gallon-tanks#post_3471224
Ok.....So for stupidities sake I'm curious how that center brace is held into place.....Look on the back side and see if there's some pocket screws holding that together.......Even if that's not how they put the thing together, there is no reason that back of the stand couldn't be opened temporarily and a good size tank or sump slid in from the back......Another crazy question for you.....What does the top of the stand look like.....Is it open or is it a solid top stand........

I do like the stand the way it is and i would prefer to not have to do much to the stand. I just want to drill a hole for the PVC and be done with it. The top of the stand is a solid piece. and i believe the center is held in with the pocket screws.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richamc01 http:///t/391426/building-sump-refugium-out-of-two-10-gallon-tanks#post_3471200
Thank you for the fast response. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
starting the the 10 Gal sump tank...the skimmer is only in a dry chamber because i dont have space under my DT. I dont currently have a skimmer. The 55 gallon tank is currently a freshwater tank as are the two 10 gallon tanks. With that said, I want to get a skimmer that utilizes an intake pump like i have drawn. That could definitely change as im still just in the designing process. But I placed the skimmer pump in that location because that is the dirtiest and rawest water in the sump. Granted it does go through the socks first but those are mainly to just catch any large objects that end up in the sump. Also the ball valve on the drain line is mainly for emergencies...say the power goes out in the middle of the day when i am home...I can just shut it. Im not sure what overflow im going to with either. i was just planning to buy once since they are relatively inexpensive.
The size...The reason that I would like to use two 10 gallon tanks is because there isnt enough room under my stand for anything bigger. My stand has a divider between the two cabinets and my plan was to just drill a hole through the divider to connect the two tanks. I thought that bio-balls were a good thing to use? I could be wrong as i have never used them...Why are they not needed? I just thought it would just be an additional level of filtration. I would much rather have way too much filtration than not enough. I also plan to keep the Canister filter that i currently have running on this new saltwater setup. the sump is only higher that the fuge because i wanted gravity to do its thing. I can definitely swap the two around but then where does this skimmer go? since it needs the dirtiest water and the first water that enters the sump, im not sure where to place it. I would definitely like to use the other 10 gallon just as the fuge.
Thank you again.
On a different note...any answers to these questions?
Understand your fondness of the stand......The 2 piece setup would work, but wouldn't be efficient as I had pointed out earlier......A setup as I had pictured earlier on in the thread would be more ideal....Again your wasting room with how you have it designed......A 10 gallon tank and you stuff a return pump you don't really have 10 gallons.....Again a good site to check out is melevsreef.com.....Maybe Mark can explain it better than I and you can read and see pics as well.
As far as the bio balls.....You can use them, but you gain no real advantage, and it is just another thing to perform maintenance on......Bio balls are not typically used in the hobby as much anymore.....As far as the canister filter I don't see any reason you couldn't continue to use it, but you will want to stay focused on keeping it running at it's peak and not skimp on servicing it as well......
 
richamc01

richamc01

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/391426/building-sump-refugium-out-of-two-10-gallon-tanks#post_3471235
Understand your fondness of the stand......The 2 piece setup would work, but wouldn't be efficient as I had pointed out earlier......A setup as I had pictured earlier on in the thread would be more ideal....Again your wasting room with how you have it designed......A 10 gallon tank and you stuff a return pump you don't really have 10 gallons.....Again a good site to check out is melevsreef.com.....Maybe Mark can explain it better than I and you can read and see pics as well.
As far as the bio balls.....You can use them, but you gain no real advantage, and it is just another thing to perform maintenance on......Bio balls are not typically used in the hobby as much anymore.....As far as the canister filter I don't see any reason you couldn't continue to use it, but you will want to stay focused on keeping it running at it's peak and not skimp on servicing it as well......
ive been looking around his website for awhile. its very informative. I guess im kind unsure as to what direction to turn now. ill work on another drawing and see what i cant come up with.
thanks for all of your help.
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Trust me I know it's overwhelming at times.....Mark is a good guy.....I think his other site is www.reefaddicts.com.....you can either get a hold of him there or his other site.
 
richamc01

richamc01

Member
ok so here is the second drawing that i have came up with...




Sorry i dont know why these pictures are so small and sideways. Thats not how they look when i view them on my computer...
Let me know how this looks...
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Hello,
Welcome to the site...LOL..you have a black version of my stand. I have a 90g but like the 55g and 75g...I have a 4 foot long stand. That center brace is nothing but looks and I didn't want mine removed either. They designed my sump in two parts so I wouldn't have to.
Listen to Acrylic, he, along with Al&Burke and 2Quills designed my sump and the pictures he showed you is of that build. Search Flowers sump/fuge build and read it, I'm telling you Acrylic knows what he is talking about and will help you with the design you need...even using the two 10g tanks. On that thread the beginning is what you need to read thru...it has lots of pages but that's because some events took place turning it into a book...but if you read thru the beginning you will see the design and how to tweak yours.
Move the return to the edge of the first tank, and put the overflow hose in the center of the first tank, and the skimmer to the far left...leave the DSB fuge as it is, and lifted up.... and you have my system. The skimmer needs to be away from the fuge so it doesn't kill all the good refugium critters that overflow to the return to be sent on the wild ride up the return to your fish above for a tasty meal. The water from the DSB needs to go right up and the water from the tank needs to go thru the skimmer...
Also I have valves on all my hoses to regulate water flow. It also give me the option of shutting down the fuge and taking it offline. I have holes at the top of my return so the system shuts down almost instantly with very little back siphon before it stops...if the power goes out it is no problem at all...it has never flooded and starts right up when the power is restored. All return pumps, power heads and overflows are plugged into a single surge protector power strip, creating an emergency shut of button to stop the entire system in the event of an emergency. The guys thought of everything.
 
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