Bush ready to start WWIII

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by SigmaChris
I applaude us coming to the aid of Kuwait...why don't we do the same in Africa? Being the most powerful nation in the world does give us some responsibility to protect the weak, but it seems oil is what we wanted to protect more.
Very well. Let's agree I read too much into your first post and you didn't clearly express what you meant.
Now to Africa. Where would you like us to begin? We were in Somalia until we were attacked and President Clinton ordered our military to tuck tail and run.
Darfur? Am I actually to believe that the Democrats in this country would support any kind of nation building or USA involvement in the civil war that is taking place there? That flies in direct contention with their arguments against our current strategy in Iraq.
Let's be honest... from a national threat standpoint Africa isn't much on an issue. Africa is a UN issue, and depsite the fact that the Democrats are huge fans of the UN Africa is just one more example in a long list of failed UN operations.
I'd love to see US boots on the ground in Darfur to end the suffering and religious persecution going on there, btw. Is our nation prepared, however, for US troops engaging in firefights with 12 year olds? Is our nation prepared to see US tanks gunning down natives wielding WW1 sidearms and machetes?
I don't think we are. I think we've become so spoiled we can't comprehend the autrocities that need to be stopped. Our media, and leading politicians in the Democratic party, hate our military so much they would crucify our soldiers the first time a journalist took a picture of a dead child, even if he was armed with an AK47.
No... until there is a fundamental shift in our way of thinking our military needs to stay far, far away from Africa.

 

[sigmachris]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Very well. Let's agree I read too much into your first post and you didn't clearly express what you meant.
Agreed...this rookie will work on his delivery.
As for Africa...I don't have the ammo to fight that debate. I did like your point of the US reaction to pictures of killed boy soldiers.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by SigmaChris
Agreed...this rookie will work on his delivery.
As for Africa...I don't have the ammo to fight that debate. I did like your point of the US reaction to pictures of killed boy soldiers.
No problem. Glad we got on the same page.
Africa is a tragedy... Even Kenya, once thought to be the shining example of Democracy in Africa, is struggling with violance. What's going to be really bad is when things get so tumultious that aid groups are forced to pull out. Without foreign charity groups, foreign aid, and tourism, much of the continent will suffer horribly.
As I said, this is exactly the kind of issue where the UN should be seen as a knight in shining armor riding in to the rescue. Instead it's corruption has been exposed time and again in the operations there.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I'm sure many feel the same way. I personally feel it is more an attack on our armed services in general, but I've never served. Feel free to pm me or one of the other Mods if you wish it removed. I only left it in because I feel it puts into perspective the OP's entire thread.

Just to let you know. I serverd a tour in Nam right before we pulled out of that conflict. So as I said before, unless you 'armchair quarterbacks' have ever been in the middle of one of these conflicts, you don't have a clue.
I'll stand behind my statement of the people who are gladly going over to Iraq to fight this 'war'. Unlike the adamant pro-war posters of this thread, the majority of Amercans aren't as gungho about this war/conflict as you are. The only individuals who were actively joining the military prior to 9/11, were the high school kids that were conned by military recruiters into thinking they could get a free education with little or no effort, or the people with dead-end jobs that were enticed into the Reserves for the same college education opportunities. Prior to 9/11, the recruiters would say, "War? NAAAH. We have an active military presense over in the MidEast, but we're not sending new recruits over there now. Come be a Reservist. You only have to play 'soldier' one weekend a month, and we'll give you $30,000 towards your college education. We won't send you into a war. We have plenty of lifetime military personnel to handle any major conflict." Then all of a sudden, we were blind-sided by 9/11. Americans were incensed, but you didn't have the same reaction as you had when Pearl Harbor was bombed. After war was declared against the Japanese, hundreds of thousands of men, many who were underage, did whatever it took to join the military. Women wanted to go, but Congress wouldn't let them on the front lines. After 9/11? Yea, there was a minor rush to join, but nothing like for WWII. It was mainly these Rambo/ Sgt. Shriver types that wanted to get even with those terrorists that blew up a major symbol of America. 'An eye for an eye'. I imagine the people you know who are over there, are the Reservist-type that never in their wildest dreams expected to be pulled away from their families for one to two years at a time.
You think I'm 'burying my head in the sand' because I'm not acting like you Audie Murphy wannabes who think we'll wipe out any and all terroristic threats to this country if we 'stay the course' in Iraq. Actually, I'm just being a realist. I know what the long-term outcome will be in this war, because I personally saw how it ended in Vietnam. If you think continuing this conflict will give you this sense of security that our borders will never be attacked again by terrorists, pack your bags and guns, or the bags and guns of all your friends and relatives who feel the same way you do and head on over. Don't give me this lame statement "I don't have to go over there to support the effort." Believe me, there are hundreds of troops over there that would trade chairs with you in a minute. They're paying the price for that free ride they thought the were signing up for. So go take their places if you're really that adamant about this war. If you don't, then you're just burying you head in the sand next to mine.

 

[mfp1016]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
Just to let you know. I serverd a tour in Nam right before we pulled out of that conflict. So as I said before, unless you 'armchair quarterbacks' have ever been in the middle of one of these conflicts, you don't have a clue.
I'll stand behind my statement of the people who are gladly going over to Iraq to fight this 'war'. Unlike the adamant pro-war posters of this thread, the majority of Amercans aren't as gungho about this war/conflict as you are. The only individuals who were actively joining the military prior to 9/11, were the high school kids that were conned by military recruiters into thinking they could get a free education with little or no effort, or the people with dead-end jobs that were enticed into the Reserves for the same college education opportunities. Prior to 9/11, the recruiters would say, "War? NAAAH. We have an active military presense over in the MidEast, but we're not sending new recruits over there now. Come be a Reservist. You only have to play 'soldier' one weekend a month, and we'll give you $30,000 towards your college education. We won't send you into a war. We have plenty of lifetime military personnel to handle any major conflict." Then all of a sudden, we were blind-sided by 9/11. Americans were incensed, but you didn't have the same reaction as you had when Pearl Harbor was bombed. After war was declared against the Japanese, hundreds of thousands of men, many who were underage, did whatever it took to join the military. Women wanted to go, but Congress wouldn't let them on the front lines. After 9/11? Yea, there was a minor rush to join, but nothing like for WWII. It was mainly these Rambo/ Sgt. Shriver types that wanted to get even with those terrorists that blew up a major symbol of America. 'An eye for an eye'. I imagine the people you know who are over there, are the Reservist-type that never in their wildest dreams expected to be pulled away from their families for one to two years at a time.
You think I'm 'burying my head in the sand' because I'm not acting like you Audie Murphy wannabes who think we'll wipe out any and all terroristic threats to this country if we 'stay the course' in Iraq. Actually, I'm just being a realist. I know what the long-term outcome will be in this war, because I personally saw how it ended in Vietnam. If you think continuing this conflict will give you this sense of security that our borders will never be attacked again by terrorists, pack your bags and guns, or the bags and guns of all your friends and relatives who feel the same way you do and head on over. Don't give me this lame statement "I don't have to go over there to support the effort." Believe me, there are hundreds of troops over there that would trade chairs with you in a minute. They're paying the price for that free ride they thought the were signing up for. So go take their places if you're really that adamant about this war. If you don't, then you're just burying you head in the sand next to mine.
You seem to love to attack people you know nothing about....
I will entertain your thoughts; but still I will take the personal accounts of the many many soldiers I've been directly involved with over your few tangible examples.

 

[salty blues]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
Just to let you know. I serverd a tour in Nam right before we pulled out of that conflict. So as I said before, unless you 'armchair quarterbacks' have ever been in the middle of one of these conflicts, you don't have a clue.
I'll stand behind my statement of the people who are gladly going over to Iraq to fight this 'war'. Unlike the adamant pro-war posters of this thread, the majority of Amercans aren't as gungho about this war/conflict as you are. The only individuals who were actively joining the military prior to 9/11, were the high school kids that were conned by military recruiters into thinking they could get a free education with little or no effort, or the people with dead-end jobs that were enticed into the Reserves for the same college education opportunities. Prior to 9/11, the recruiters would say, "War? NAAAH. We have an active military presense over in the MidEast, but we're not sending new recruits over there now. Come be a Reservist. You only have to play 'soldier' one weekend a month, and we'll give you $30,000 towards your college education. We won't send you into a war. We have plenty of lifetime military personnel to handle any major conflict." Then all of a sudden, we were blind-sided by 9/11. Americans were incensed, but you didn't have the same reaction as you had when Pearl Harbor was bombed. After war was declared against the Japanese, hundreds of thousands of men, many who were underage, did whatever it took to join the military. Women wanted to go, but Congress wouldn't let them on the front lines. After 9/11? Yea, there was a minor rush to join, but nothing like for WWII. It was mainly these Rambo/ Sgt. Shriver types that wanted to get even with those terrorists that blew up a major symbol of America. 'An eye for an eye'. I imagine the people you know who are over there, are the Reservist-type that never in their wildest dreams expected to be pulled away from their families for one to two years at a time.
You think I'm 'burying my head in the sand' because I'm not acting like you Audie Murphy wannabes who think we'll wipe out any and all terroristic threats to this country if we 'stay the course' in Iraq. Actually, I'm just being a realist. I know what the long-term outcome will be in this war, because I personally saw how it ended in Vietnam. If you think continuing this conflict will give you this sense of security that our borders will never be attacked again by terrorists, pack your bags and guns, or the bags and guns of all your friends and relatives who feel the same way you do and head on over. Don't give me this lame statement "I don't have to go over there to support the effort." Believe me, there are hundreds of troops over there that would trade chairs with you in a minute. They're paying the price for that free ride they thought the were signing up for. So go take their places if you're really that adamant about this war. If you don't, then you're just burying you head in the sand next to mine.
First, thanks for your military service. Especially that in Viet Nam. I too am a veteran, though I did not serve any time in Nam.
A couple of points. I understand how a recriuter may attempt to entice potential recruits, however when/before a person joins the military, active or reserve, they are made well aware that they are expected to go where they are sent and do what they are told, no questions asked.
As to the merits of fighting this war in Iraq, it is better to fight them in Iraq that to have them blow us up here at home. That is what makes this war different from previous wars this country has fought.

 

[darthtang aw]

I would also like to point out to rude dog in world war 2 there was a draft, it wasn't volunteer. As for armchair quarterback, you can stuff it. I have never served in the military, but I have attempted to join twice. Both occassions they have refused me because I have a medical condition that my lungs occassionally partially collapse. Hasn't happened in about 8 years now, but they still didn't want to risk it.
I personally believe we should have a mandatory draft in this country anyway. 4 years of service to your country in some fashion...France and Germany both do this....To many take this country for granted and want hand outs, I feel a little service to your country will give you more pride and respect for those that volunteer.
Furthermore, people scream for free healthcare...you want free heathcare? I can give you free heathcare and a decent paying job with free housing, free healthcare for life your spouse, and your children till the age of 18, not to mention discounts at major store chains, and discounts through your employer. Make a career of the military and you get all of this. Your only qualifying needs are...decent health, pass basic training, and no felonies I believe and ANYONE can be employed with great benefits.
I keep hearing of the deatsh to our boys over there, you realize the number of personel that have served in this war? Compare that number to the deathe and your death rate is less than 1 percent...THAT is an awesome percentage. Compare that statistic to the deaths in major cities compared to population and it is about the same......
Hell, vehicle accidents in the U.S. kill almost the same percentage of people as that have been killed in Iraq...

 

[mess88]

last time i check germany was a free and peaceful country. This is all .

 

[1journeyman]

Rudedog, again you do a disservice to the men and women that serve. They weren't all duped, or in dead end jobs, or all poor. Many serve in the military today because the want to serve the country.
I spent 12 years working with High School students in my community. I know many of the students who have signed up to join the military, both before and after 9-11. Your insinuation that the only people signing up are "Rambos" is completely false. I know. I know the students signing up to go over there. Yeesh, who do you hang out with? You tell us you know all these soldiers then continue to describe them in this way... I suggest running with a different crowd.
We did not have a turnout like WW2 because the military didn't need it and the President didn't ask for it. Every branch of the military continues to maintain their recruiting and retention goals.
Now, not that facts ever seem to bother you, but you might check out the actual numbers here before you go repeating the fictitious notion that only the poor and uneducated were/or are enlisting in the military.

 

[darthtang aw]

75% of all miltary volunteers come from middle class and upper midle class families....if I remember the percentage correctly, I do know it is high. So therefore it is not a "sucker the poor" operation as you claim...

 

[dlauber]

Going a bit off topic.
Does anyone know what you can or cant do being colorblind. All I know of course you cant fly aircrafts.
Im thinking about enlisting when I turn 18, only have a year and a half left of school, and I already took the ASVAB. Just debating on when go talk to my school counciler.
Also I live in a nice middleclass family, and my dad is submarine cheif in the Navy, and he is retiring this summer.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by Dlauber
Going a bit off topic.
Does anyone know what you can or cant do being colorblind. All I know of course you cant fly aircrafts.
depends on which branch and what "job" you are looking for, but for the most part I believe color bliond people have served in the past.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
I would also like to point out to rude dog in world war 2 there was a draft, it wasn't volunteer. As for armchair quarterback, you can stuff it. I have never served in the military, but I have attempted to join twice. Both occassions they have refused me because I have a medical condition that my lungs occassionally partially collapse. Hasn't happened in about 8 years now, but they still didn't want to risk it.
I personally believe we should have a mandatory draft in this country anyway. 4 years of service to your country in some fashion...France and Germany both do this....To many take this country for granted and want hand outs, I feel a little service to your country will give you more pride and respect for those that volunteer.
Furthermore, people scream for free healthcare...you want free heathcare? I can give you free heathcare and a decent paying job with free housing, free healthcare for life your spouse, and your children till the age of 18, not to mention discounts at major store chains, and discounts through your employer. Make a career of the military and you get all of this. Your only qualifying needs are...decent health, pass basic training, and no felonies I believe and ANYONE can be employed with great benefits.
I keep hearing of the deatsh to our boys over there, you realize the number of personel that have served in this war? Compare that number to the deathe and your death rate is less than 1 percent...THAT is an awesome percentage. Compare that statistic to the deaths in major cities compared to population and it is about the same......
Hell, vehicle accidents in the U.S. kill almost the same percentage of people as that have been killed in Iraq...
I can assure you, I didn't sign up for Nam. I imagine all the pro-war advocates would love another draft. Thank God Congress has the sense not to try it. Kind of validates what the majority of Americans think about this war. Somebody brought the draft up not long after they came up with the huge deployemnt requirement. Not even Bush wanted to chase that dream.
You're proud of the low death ratio? Now that's pathetic. How about ZERO casualties? You actually have the nerve to compare deaths in a war to normal deaths that happen in American cities? Talk about Sgt. Shriver.. Let me guess, you had to be trying to join the Marines.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Rudedog, again you do a disservice to the men and women that serve. They weren't all duped, or in dead end jobs, or all poor. Many serve in the military today because the want to serve the country.
I spent 12 years working with High School students in my community. I know many of the students who have signed up to join the military, both before and after 9-11. Your insinuation that the only people signing up are "Rambos" is completely false. I know. I know the students signing up to go over there. Yeesh, who do you hang out with? You tell us you know all these soldiers then continue to describe them in this way... I suggest running with a different crowd.
We did not have a turnout like WW2 because the military didn't need it and the President didn't ask for it. Every branch of the military continues to maintain their recruiting and retention goals.
.
Now, not that facts ever seem to bother you, but you might check out the actual numbers here before you go repeating the fictitious notion that only the poor and uneducated were/or are enlisting in the military.

Who cares about the demographics of the military? I didn't say they were dumb or poor. Just because you make $40K a year, doesn't mean you didn't go in with this 'I want to shoot some Iraqis' attitude. Besides, those numbers and specs are just for the active duty military. Go find the numbers and percentages of the soldiers (active duty vs. voluntary or Reservist) that are currently deployed in Iraq. You'll probably find that the biggest percentage is RESERVISTS. These individuals had no intentions in making the military a career. Many of them did one or two stints in active duty, then got out. Mainly to avoid being deployed if a war were to break out, or to get money for college. To maintain their retirement status, or increase their retirement pay, they joined the Reserves. Again, they didn't join with some hope of going into a war.
Don't put a twist on my comparison between now and WWII. The point I'm making is the majority of Americans don't care for this war, and wouldn't get involved unless they were forced to do so (i.e Darth's dream of a draft). If Americans did care, they would be going to recruiting stations in droves asking where to sign up. If your military is doing such a great job with their retention and recruiting goals, why are so many Reservists getting deployed?
What 'military' crowd do you hang with? Sorry to burst your bubble, but I 'hang' with the military everyday. I'm part owner of a network security and cryptology business (I did ****** and 'intelligence' in Nam). We have several of our personnel who work for the Air Force Air Intelligence Division based at Lackland AFB here in San Antonio. I play golf with Colonels, Majors, and Captains every other week. They clearly know my views about this war, and don't disagree or argue with me about them. Believe me, I know more about the military than you ever will.

 

[salty blues]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
Who cares about the demographics of the military? I didn't say they were dumb or poor. Just because you make $40K a year, doesn't mean you didn't go in with this 'I want to shoot some Iraqis' attitude. Besides, those numbers and specs are just for the active duty military. Go find the numbers and percentages of the soldiers (active duty vs. voluntary or Reservist) that are currently deployed in Iraq. You'll probably find that the biggest percentage is RESERVISTS. These individuals had no intentions in making the military a career. Many of them did one or two stints in active duty, then got out. Mainly to avoid being deployed if a war were to break out, or to get money for college. To maintain their retirement status, or increase their retirement pay, they joined the Reserves. Again, they didn't join with some hope of going into a war.
Don't put a twist on my comparison between now and WWII. The point I'm making is the majority of Americans don't care for this war, and wouldn't get involved unless they were forced to do so (i.e Darth's dream of a draft). If Americans did care, they would be going to recruiting stations in droves asking where to sign up. If your military is doing such a great job with their retention and recruiting goals, why are so many Reservists getting deployed?
What 'military' crowd do you hang with? Sorry to burst your bubble, but I 'hang' with the military everyday. I'm part owner of a network security and cryptology business (I did ****** and 'intelligence' in Nam). We have several of our personnel who work for the Air Force Air Intelligence Division based at Lackland AFB here in San Antonio. I play golf with Colonels, Majors, and Captains every other week. They clearly know my views about this war, and don't disagree or argue with me about them. Believe me, I know more about the military than you ever will.
Pardon me, as I have no quarrel with you. Obviously I do not know you, but you seem somewhat cynical about this subject. As to your statement that Americans do not care for this war, you are surely right. No civil minded person wants any war any time, but if the US just walks away from Iraq, I say we will regeret and pay for it down the line.

 

[groupergenius]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
Who cares about the demographics of the military? I didn't say they were dumb or poor. Just because you make $40K a year, doesn't mean you didn't go in with this 'I want to shoot some Iraqis' attitude. Besides, those numbers and specs are just for the active duty military. Go find the numbers and percentages of the soldiers (active duty vs. voluntary or Reservist) that are currently deployed in Iraq. You'll probably find that the biggest percentage is RESERVISTS. These individuals had no intentions in making the military a career. Many of them did one or two stints in active duty, then got out. Mainly to avoid being deployed if a war were to break out, or to get money for college. To maintain their retirement status, or increase their retirement pay, they joined the Reserves. Again, they didn't join with some hope of going into a war.
Don't put a twist on my comparison between now and WWII. The point I'm making is the majority of Americans don't care for this war, and wouldn't get involved unless they were forced to do so (i.e Darth's dream of a draft). If Americans did care, they would be going to recruiting stations in droves asking where to sign up. If your military is doing such a great job with their retention and recruiting goals, why are so many Reservists getting deployed?
What 'military' crowd do you hang with? Sorry to burst your bubble, but I 'hang' with the military everyday. I'm part owner of a network security and cryptology business (I did ****** and 'intelligence' in Nam). We have several of our personnel who work for the Air Force Air Intelligence Division based at Lackland AFB here in San Antonio. I play golf with Colonels, Majors, and Captains every other week. They clearly know my views about this war, and don't disagree or argue with me about them. Believe me, I know more about the military than you ever will.
Who in this country is not aware of what the MAIN job of the Armed Services is? Are you insinuating that all these reservists and regular volunteers are so stupid that they don't know what the MAIN job of the military is?
By the same token, do brave men and women become police officers and firemen just cause it may be a cushy job with good benifits?
NO THEY DON'T. They all are aware of the risks involved with their chosen profession. And these brave souls are not SCARED to perform their duties.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
Who in this country is not aware of what the MAIN job of the Armed Services is? Are you insinuating that all these reservists and regular volunteers are so stupid that they don't know what the MAIN job of the military is?
By the same token, do brave men and women become police officers and firemen just cause it may be a cushy job with good benifits?
NO THEY DON'T. They all are aware of the risks involved with their chosen profession. And these brave souls are not SCARED to perform their duties.

Where did I ever say people in who serve in the Reserves or volunteered to be deployed are stupid? Are you in the Reserves? Have you ever served? Believe me, before Reservists started getting deployed, thier 'service' for this country was anything considered rigorous. Every Reservists I know, or have known, knew there was a possibility they could be sent to a war or confilct at any time. But every one of them 're-upped' or joined after the Gulf War and before 9/11. They all figured "Hey, we just left the Gulf, there's no indication another major war will start again anytime soon, so the possibility of me being deployed is remote if unlikely at all. I'll get a nice extra paycheck to go one weekend every month to sit in an office and tap on a computer. Where do I sign up?" Oops. That backfired on them. Now they're getting 12-18 month deployments away from their jobs and families, walking around some hot desolate country with a big target on their chest. If you want to call that being stupid, I guess you can. I call it 'making the wrong career choice'.

 

[groupergenius]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
Where did I ever say people in who serve in the Reserves or volunteered to be deployed are stupid?
Go back through all your posts and count how many times you proclaim that they were all duped into signing up.
Are you in the Reserves? Have you ever served?
Reserves-no. Served-yes.
Believe me, before Reservists started getting deployed, thier 'service' for this country was anything considered rigorous. Every Reservists I know, or have known, knew there was a possibility they could be sent to a war or confilct at any time. But every one of them 're-upped' or joined after the Gulf War and before 9/11. They all figured "Hey, we just left the Gulf, there's no indication another major war will start again anytime soon, so the possibility of me being deployed is remote if unlikely at all. I'll get a nice extra paycheck to go one weekend every month to sit in an office and tap on a computer. Where do I sign up?" Oops. That backfired on them. Now they're getting 12-18 month deployments away from their jobs and families, walking around some hot desolate country with a big target on their chest.
Sooo....they realized the dangers going in but they just figured the timing all wrong??
If you want to call that being stupid, I guess you can. I call it 'making the wrong career choice'.
No. I would never say that our service men and women are stupid. Those are assumptions that you have laid out. As in your sentence above.
Sorry, I'm not CP savvy enough to do the multi-quote thing.

 

[joebob7]

wow! Clinton spread weapons all around to countries too. Thats news for the "bush is the only bad president people" haha.
Didnt we give weapons to Iraq to fight Iran in Desert Storm or the other way around but somehow Lebanon ended up getting screwed over? Im really not sure and this is all stuff I think I Remember from world history

 

[groupergenius]

Originally Posted by joebob7
wow! Clinton spread weapons all around to countries too. Thats news for the "bush is the only bad president people" haha.
Didnt we give weapons to Iraq to fight Iran in Desert Storm or the other way around but somehow Lebanon ended up getting screwed over? Im really not sure and this is all stuff I think I Remember from world history

We supplied Iraq with weapons to fight Iran well before Dessert Storm. The 2 countries had been at war for 20+ years. Iran ousted The Shah and the Ayatollahs took charge. During Carter's administration, they kidnapped some of our folks and held them until Reagen was President.
Irony is, when the US went into Iraq, Dessert Storm, Iraq took their Air Force to Iran.
Again, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.