Bush's War

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2562172
Of course. Profiting from this war and then coming here to romanticize about how great it is seems like a conflict of interest.
Average salary for a volunteer soldier is around 30 grand, 18 year olds get around 26 thousand a year. They are required to stay in Iraq for 15 months, newbies only have to stay for a year. You can leave when ever you want? And, our soldiers, making 26,ooo a year will be protecting you.
So, while you are in Iraq, in the air conditioned comfort of your office, and still being able to post on the www, there will be some who read your words and feel they are tainted.
Yup, that's why I'm doing it; for profit.

Has nothing to do with friends serving over there, wanting to serve my country, etc. Financially, while you and the rest of the country seem to believe the sky is falling, I'm doing fine. I don't need to go to a War Zone to make money.
Like I said, I'm not going to get into my specifics, except to say you're wrong on just about every detail.
As long as some believe my views are "tainted" I know I'm doing something right.

I'd be terrified if someone with your viewpoints actually condoned my life's ambitions, could comprehend my moral compass or understood what drives me Suzy.

 

[suzy]

Our volunteer armed forces can use your reasons for fighting and people will respect them. Civilian contractors are there for money. Don't get me wrong, lots of people are making money off this war. But, when you come on a sounding board, and try to act like you are above the rest of us because you are "serving" your country, is a bit much. Plus, when you promote keeping the war going as long as possible, some will question your motives. Most Americans want a plan to end the war one day.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2562413
Our volunteer armed forces can use your reasons for fighting and people will respect them. Civilian contractors are there for money. Don't get me wrong, lots of people are making money off this war. But, when you come on a sounding board, and try to act like you are above the rest of us because you are "serving" your country, is a bit much. Plus, when you promote keeping the war going as long as possible, some will question your motives. Most Americans want a plan to end the war one day.

Ok...holding my tongue...but people join the military for money.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2562413
Our volunteer armed forces can use your reasons for fighting and people will respect them. Civilian contractors are there for money. Don't get me wrong, lots of people are making money off this war. But, when you come on a sounding board, and try to act like you are above the rest of us because you are "serving" your country, is a bit much. Plus, when you promote keeping the war going as long as possible, some will question your motives. Most Americans want a plan to end the war one day.
So you know the motivations of every civilian contractor, as well as what every civilian job in Iraq includes and pays?
FWIW, my job will be there when the war ends. It will be safer too. So that should pretty well put the final nail in this particular conspiracy theorist's coffin.
I never acted like I was "above the rest" of anyone. You and rudedog keep saying "when are you going" so I answered. Seems to me like you should think twice before asking a question if you don't want an answer...

 

[suzy]

Are your friends able to go to the www front and promote the glory and wondrousness of bringing democracy, peace and partisan politics to the middle east too?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2562527
Are your friends able to go to the www front and promote the glory and wondrousness of bringing democracy, peace and partisan politics to the middle east too?
Nope, not usually. They tend to leave the silliness to me while they fight the actual battles.
That said, they do believe in Democracy, peace and freedom. They also wish the Democrats who voted to authorize the War were still backing their mission today...

 

[suzy]

We backed it for a few years. Most just don't feel we can be there forever. But, our jobs aren't involved with it, either. Most of us are paying for it.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2562678
We backed it for a few years. Most just don't feel we can be there forever. But, our jobs aren't involved with it, either. Most of us are paying for it.
Ahh. gotcha. So War support should have an expiration date. We're going to wage war for no more than 6 weeks, then retreat. Sweet. We should win some serious wars that way in the future...
As pointed out, my job doesn't depend on the War. In fact, it will be easier without a war... Again, however, as you obviously have formed an opinion I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. Just don't pass along lies about my personal decisions...

 

[darknes]

You've got my support journeyman!

Take care of yourself out there, and don't let the nosayers get to ya.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Darknes
http:///forum/post/2563133
You've got my support journeyman!

Take care of yourself out there, and don't let the nosayers get to ya.
Thank ya. I appreciate it.
To be honest, the only reason I brought this up at all was because Suzy and another poster kept saying "if you are so pro Iraq when are you going?" So I told them... I don't want to turn this into a thread about me personally. What I'm going to do pales in comparison to what our men/women do everyday to secure Iraq and bring freedom to 27 million people. I'm excited about being able to positively contribute in a small way.

 

[suzy]

Yes, our enlisted volunteer military men and woman are heros, working such long tours for so much less than other Americans in Iraq. Our National Guard, working long tours on the front line while their families at home struggle to make up the lost pay Dad gave up to serve. They are real heros.
I hope we can bring them home soon.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2563400
.. I hope we can bring them home soon.
Lest we forget, every soldier in Iraq is a volunteer. Also lest we forget, rention numbers remain very high. Many of those that could leave choose to stay for another tour.
We agree on bringing the troops home soon. We differ under the circumstances in which we should bring them home.
I vote as victors like we saw after WW2. Your candidate's cut and run will lead to a repeat of the Saigon Airlift.

 

[rudedog40]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2563568
Lest we forget, every soldier in Iraq is a volunteer. Also lest we forget, rention numbers remain very high. Many of those that could leave choose to stay for another tour.
We agree on bringing the troops home soon. We differ under the circumstances in which we should bring them home.
I vote as victors like we saw after WW2. Your candidate's cut and run will lead to a repeat of the Saigon Airlift.
Everyone's a volunteer? Now that's a stretch. Yes, there is no mandatory draft -- YET. However, I can guarantee you there are many reservists who are stuck over there that would never willingly 'volunteer' for this war.
You are still living in that dream world if you think this war can end like WW2. Our current stay is nothing more than an extension of the Gulf War. But of course I'm sure you'll blame Clinton for that 'cut and run'. Face the facts. Whether we stay or go, nothing will change. I keep telling you that, you just refuse to listen. You have some illusions of grandeur that we'll erradicate every factions of terrorist and other evil, and everyone in the Middle East will live in peace and harmony until the end of time. Just go on over there to your 'super secret' endeavor, and get an eye opening experience. I'm sure the soldiers will appreciated another hand to clean out the latrines.

 

[zman1]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2563568
Lest we forget, every soldier in Iraq is a volunteer. Also lest we forget, rention numbers remain very high.
I did put the Volunteer Armed forces numbers in a chart from the CRS document. Also, I add a trend line to the TOTAL, not that it was needed.
I am not sure if the Selected Reserve category if only Active Reserves are counted or if it includes the activated inactive reserves. There is a difference for those of you that don't know. The active reserve that have been called "weekend warriors" in the past and some were activated fulltime for the middle east wars. The inactive reserve are part of a contract commitment to the government after active duty term is completed. Also, I am not sure what the length there is today for the military. Example, I served 4 years regular active duty, but my contract was for a total 6 years, 4 active, 2 inactive, of which I was only activated 1 day during the two years to update my records. The military could have easily activated me the whole two years. My thoughts are the increases in the selected reserve category would be those that moved from Active duty to the activated inactive reserve because of contract terms.
Though the volunteer ranks may go up as they have in the past during harder economic times...
Source the CRS document - 1980 - 2006
Legend:
Aqua Blue = Total
Blue = Active Duty
Purple = Fulltime Guard
Yellow = Selected Reserves

 

[suzy]

But, Rude, McSame says the terrorists are only in Iraq, so we have to stay there until they like each other and don't need police anymore. If we ever leave, we lose so we have to keep sacrificing our sons and treasure forever....We have to stay there because that keeps the evil doers there so they can't come here.....
Yeah, right.
How many more soldiers have to die before we can at least start trying to think of a plan to let them run their own country? If anyone even suggests that maybe we can leave one day, they get labeled with cutsey little slogans. The only way some can see of this war ending is for it to never end.
Supporting cutnpaste
In the three decades since the Vietnam War, the "all-volunteer Army" has become a bedrock principle of the American military. "It's a magnificent force," Vice President ---- Cheney declared during the election campaign last fall, "because those serving are ones who signed up to serve." But with the Army and Marines perilously overextended by the war in Iraq, that volunteer foundation is starting to crack. The "weekend warriors" of the Army Reserve and the National Guard now make up almost half the fighting force on the front lines, and young officers in the Reserve are retiring in droves. The Pentagon, which can barely attract enough recruits to maintain current troop levels, has involuntarily extended the enlistments of as many as 100,000 soldiers. Desperate for troops, the Army has lowered its standards to let in twenty-five percent more high school dropouts, and the Marines are now offering as much as $30,000 to anyone who re-enlists.

 

[zman1]

CNN
Airs 11-1PM ET sunday - today
Late Edition
I watched it, anyone else? What are your thoughts? I thought they both were on the money with their responses...
Gen. David Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker deliver key testimony on Capitol Hill this week. Wolf sits down with Senators Joe Biden and Richard Lugar, two key members of the Senate Foreign Relations committee.
Sen. Joe Biden, (D) Delaware
Sen. Richard Luger, (R) Indiana

 

[darknes]

zman, your graph is misleading. It does show an overall trend of decreasing volunteer armed forces from 1980 to 2006. However, if you look from 1999 to the present, the trend is almost constant. This tells me that our retention numbers are staying constant throughout this war.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by rudedog40
http:///forum/post/2563654
Everyone's a volunteer? Now that's a stretch.
Really? Please explain...
Originally Posted by rudedog
Yes, there is no mandatory draft -- YET. However, I can guarantee you there are many reservists who are stuck over there that would never willingly 'volunteer' for this war.
The last time I checked, soldiers don't get to choose on which Wars they participate and which ones they sit out... Further, this War has been going on for 5 years now. Many of those Reservists keep re-enlisting...
Originally Posted by Rudedog
You are still living in that dream world if you think this war can end like WW2. Our current stay is nothing more than an extension of the Gulf War. But of course I'm sure you'll blame Clinton for that 'cut and run'.
Clinton wasn't President during the first Gulf War.... Nor was the political, global, or military situation the same in 1990 as it was in 2003. So, no.. don't blame him. I do blame him for not appropriately responding the first time we were attacked by Al Qaeda and the first time Saddam violated the peace agreement....
Originally Posted by Rudedog
Face the facts. Whether we stay or go, nothing will change. I keep telling you that, you just refuse to listen. ....
As soon as you start posting facts I'll listen. So far all I see is a lot of negative dribble and pessimistic arguments about how we can never win.

 

[zman1]

Originally Posted by Darknes
http:///forum/post/2563741
zman, your graph is misleading. It does show an overall trend of decreasing volunteer armed forces from 1980 to 2006. However, if you look from 1999 to the present, the trend is almost constant. This tells me that our retention numbers are staying constant throughout this war.

Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/2563674
I am not sure if the Selected Reserve category if only Active Reserves are counted or if it includes the activated inactive reserves. There is a difference for those of you that don't know. The active reserve that have been called "weekend warriors" in the past and some were activated fulltime for the middle east wars. The inactive reserve are part of a contract commitment to the government after active duty term is completed. Also, I am not sure what the length there is today for the military. Example, I served 4 years regular active duty, but my contract was for a total 6 years, 4 active, 2 inactive, of which I was only activated 1 day during the two years to update my records. The military could have easily activated me the whole two years. My thoughts are the increases in the selected reserve category would be those that moved from Active duty to the activated inactive reserve because of contract terms.
Though the volunteer ranks may go up as they have in the past during harder economic times...
Do you know the answer to my question - are the increases in selected reserves - activated inactive reserve component? (involuntary active duty extension)
Raw numbers for the totals
Code:
[pre]YearActive GuardSel.Reserve Total
19802,050,758 22,00086,8722,159,630
19812,093,032 22,00091,7192,206,751
19822,112,609 41,00097,4582,251,067
19832,123,909 49,000100,4552,273,364
19842,138,339 55,000104,5832,297,922
19852,150,379 64,000108,8062,323,185
19862,177,845 69,000113,0102,359,855
19872,166,611 71,000115,0862,352,697
19882,121,659 72,000115,8362,309,495
19892,112,128 74,200117,0562,303,384
19902,046,806 74,250137,2682,258,324
19911,943,937 70,250184,0022,198,189
19921,773,996 67,850111,4911,953,337
19931,675,269 68,500105,7681,849,537
19941,581,649 65,00099,8331,746,482
19951,502,343 65,00094,5851,661,928
19961,456,266 65,00092,4091,613,310
19971,418,773 65,00094,6091,578,382
19981,381,034 65,00092,5361,538,570
19991,367,838 65,00093,1041,525,942
20001,372,352 65,00093,0781,530,430
20011,384,812 65,000102,2841,552,196
20021,411,200 66,000149,9421,627,142
20031,423,348 66,000243,2841,732,632
20041,411,287 66,000234,6291,711,916
20051,378,014 66,000220,0001,664,014
20061,378,014 66,000220,0001,664,014[/pre]

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2563693
But, Rude, McSame says the terrorists are only in Iraq,...
Link please? Or else I'm gonna throw the BS flag.
Originally Posted by Suzy
so we have to stay there until they like each other and don't need police anymore. If we ever leave, we lose so we have to keep sacrificing our sons and treasure forever....We have to stay there because that keeps the evil doers there so they can't come here..... Yeah, right.
Good point... The terrorists have figured out a way to be in two places at once.

Originally Posted by Suzy
How many more soldiers have to die before we can at least start trying to think of a plan to let them run their own country? If anyone even suggests that maybe we can leave one day, they get labeled with cutsey little slogans. The only way some can see of this war ending is for it to never end.
Why do we have a military? Why not just heavily arm our police forces and Border Patrol and bunker down...
Originally Posted by Suzy
Supporting cutnpaste
In the three decades since the Vietnam War, the "all-volunteer Army" has become a bedrock principle of the American military. "It's a magnificent force," Vice President ---- Cheney declared during the election campaign last fall, "because those serving are ones who signed up to serve." But with the Army and Marines perilously overextended by the war in Iraq, that volunteer foundation is starting to crack. The "weekend warriors" of the Army Reserve and the National Guard now make up almost half the fighting force on the front lines, and young officers in the Reserve are retiring in droves. The Pentagon, which can barely attract enough recruits to maintain current troop levels, has involuntarily extended the enlistments of as many as 100,000 soldiers. Desperate for troops, the Army has lowered its standards to let in twenty-five percent more high school dropouts, and the Marines are now offering as much as $30,000 to anyone who re-enlists.
Again.. the military says they are hitting their recruitment and retention goals.
If you want a larger military then we are in agreement. Unfortunately, despite the repeated attacks during the 90's, your party's President continued to downsize our military. We are now playing catchup.