calcium low, alkalinity high

ctgretzky9

Member
I am baffled....
My calcium is reading 360, my alkalinity is off the charts!
How do i adjust this?
Ph is 8.2, salinity .025, amm, trites at 0, trates at 10, water temp at 80-81
Anyone know what I should do? Nothing in the tank looks bad except the damn polyps and zoos which are ok, but not like they should be...
any thoughts?
much appreciated
60 hex
250 mh light
 
T

thomas712

Guest
I would first check your water change water. If everything is ok there then I would do some water changes.
Have you been dosing alk or cal?
Don't tell me - instant ocean right?
Thomas
 

ctgretzky9

Member
lmao..yes thomas...instant ocean!
is this a problem?
I was dosing by reccomendations the b-ionic alkalinty (part 1 of 2)
My water change water is really good
I have been dosing too high, and will do a 20% change tonight
What is it about instant ocean? is it high alk?
Thanks!!
 

ctgretzky9

Member
Here is the problem...
the ph of water I am using is at 7.1 or something. So I add in my instant ocean, and then use a small amount of kent superbuffer dkh to raise the ph a drop to 8.2.
This is what i always have done (but never measured alkalinity...dumb!) Then once a week i dose the b-ionic part 1 (alkalinity) and iodine.
Now i went to my lfs just now, and bought part 2-calcium buffer system from the b-ionic line.
He told me to do another water change and let the salt determine ph, but it is ok to use the kent superbuffer dkh if i need to raise the ph a little.
Then add by instruction the calcium buffer stuff.
Does this sound right? Any thoughts?
 

bang guy

Moderator

Originally posted by ctgretzky9
Here is the problem...
the ph of water I am using is at 7.1 or something. So I add in my instant ocean, and then use a small amount of kent superbuffer dkh to raise the ph a drop to 8.2.

Don't do that. You are upsetting the balance between Calcium and Carbonate.
It's not necessary. Just mix the saltwater, aerate or mix for 12 - 24 hours and then use it.
If the ALK in your tank water is low then dose some buffer, there is not reason to dose a trace element that is already high. Never use buffer to attempt to control your PH.
 
T

tizzo

Guest
My very first post to these boards was very similar to yours ctgretzky, My PH was 6.2 before I added the salt, then 7.9 after. I added like a quarter teaspoon of Kent's superbuffer, etc, etc...
Bang and Thomas (and others) replied, but Bang mostly walked me through the whole deal. My point is that he said the same then that he says now, quit adding all that stuff, just mix the saltproperly and it'll be fine...
I thought he was crazy, it wouldn't work, but I tried everything else so...
It still mixed at 7.9 but in my tank it's 8.2. I don't know how, I don't know why but it is...
I test my calcium (which is always good) and my alkalinity, which I usually hafta add (I use Oceanic), and my ph is 8.2.
As for your other concern... your calcium. When I used IO, my magnesium levels were low, so you might wanna test them and maybe correct them if you hafta.
:)
 
T

thomas712

Guest
In many cases IO salt is deficiant in magnesium, this leads to one or the other two, alk or cal being low and one high, then the yo yo affect takes place and they normally both get pulled down unless your supplimenting, this lead to chasing water chemistry over and over. Under dosing, over dosing, redosing, it gets old real fast.
I had this same problem using Instant ocean over the last two years, then switched to Oceanic. Since I have I have never had to add calcium suppliment, but I have had to add a buffer to maintain alkalinity the pH takes care of itself in my tank.
Bang is right, never add buffer to try to maintain pH, its a marketing tactic about stablizing or raising pH with buffer, its very misleading.
Aerating the water change water will help to stablize pH and bring it up toward 8.0 or so. You might also examine your tanks water turnover rate, look to see if you have those ripples going at the surface for gas exchange as well.
I would still test the water change water after 24 hours of mixing. Does it ever mix up cloudy? If not then just test it.
Thomas
 

ctgretzky9

Member
i always thought I was a pretty bright guy UNTIL I GOT A SALTWATER TANK!!!!! lmao...
you guys to me are brilliant, because i STILL don't 100% get it, but I'll try...
Ok, so what i should do is...trust that the saltwater mix I will make using instant ocean (I know where you're coming from Thomas, but I have 2 huge bags of it left!) will aerate after 24 hrs enough so that it wil be ok ph-wise. Then do a water change of around 20%. Thomas-MY water never gets cloudy when i mix some up after just a few minutes it is crystal clear.
And really thats it for now until i retest and see where it is? Should I be adding the calcium (b-ionic part 2) i bought into the tank at all?
SO basically i need to dilute the alkalinity for now?
Im so sorry guys for all of the q's and i know it gets frustrating, but please try and remeMber when you first started actually learning the chemistry of it all lol
Thank you!
 

bang guy

Moderator

Originally posted by ctgretzky9
Should I be adding the calcium (b-ionic part 2) i bought into the tank at all?

Let me delve into two part additives for a bit.
Calcium and Carbonate (ALK) are consumed by many of the animals in your tank. Snails, worms, soft corals, fish, hard corals, etc. These two elements need to be maintained at a usable level for growth and for the health of the tank. They should be balanced in such a way that they can be consumed by the animals without depleting one or the other to the point where they are no longer useful.
To answer the question:
If your calcium level is low then dose the Part B to raise Calcium. Do not add it just because, you should test first.
After a while you will get a feel for the calcium and carbonate consumption rate of your system and you can test less. Charting the levels and the amount of additives will help a lot.
 

ctgretzky9

Member
bang, thomas an tizzo, thanks so much, I am learning!
Bang...yes, my calc measured at 340 by both me and lfs. So tonight i am going to do a 20% water change to help reduce alk, and I will dose the calc after the water change...hopefully this will pull things into line a bit...sound right?
I got a new mh light and am excited to begin adding some coral beside polyps, but really want to get a handle on all the chemistry first.
Thanks for all of the help, i really do appreciate it
 
T

thomas712

Guest
Sounds fine to begin with. Tomorrow test and post the scores before you suppliment with anything. If calcium is still low then you may want to do another water change in a few days, its normally a safe/quick way to get things back in line.
Thomas
 

ctgretzky9

Member
Thomas...
thank you for the advice...ok, i am going to lfs now to get a new alkalinity kit by salifert so i know it is acurate so i can test both my source water (which came back ok, but i want to test again) and tank water on my own tonight and on...
so i will do a water change tonight, and take all the readings tomorrow before i come into work without dosing anything.
Cool...thank you! I'll look forward to the results and see where to go from here so i can finally get some damn corals lol. Im wasting my new mh light!
 

neoreef

Member

Originally posted by Thomas712
I had this same problem using Instant ocean over the last two years, then switched to Oceanic. Since I have I have never had to add calcium suppliment, but I have had to add a buffer to maintain alkalinity the pH takes care of itself in my tank.
Bang is right, never add buffer to try to maintain pH, its a marketing tactic about stablizing or raising pH with buffer, its very misleading.
Aerating the water change water will help to stablize pH and bring it up toward 8.0 or so. You might also examine your tanks water turnover rate, look to see if you have those ripples going at the surface for gas exchange as well.
I would still test the water change water after 24 hours of mixing. Does it ever mix up cloudy? If not then just test it.
Thomas

I don't understand. I mean I understand how you add buffer to maintain alkalinity, and how the pH takes care of itself. Alkalinity is a measure of the buffering capacity of the tank, and an appropriately buffered tank will have the appropriate pH.
How can you then say not to add buffer to stabilize pH? That is what buffers do.
Or are you suggesting that one measure alkalinity and get that adjusted with buffer, instead of just adding buffer without measuring alkalinity? I can agree to that. One should not add buffer to "fix" the pH without knowing if the alkalinity is low, and how low it is.
If that is what you meant, great.
This hobby is very confusing sometimes and I would not want someone to think erroniously that buffers do not stabilize pH. They do. One must use them in a balanced way with Calcium or risk a precipitation event. So you have got to measure your levels and not dump stuff in your tank.
 
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thomas712

Guest

Originally posted by neoreef
How can you then say not to add buffer to stabilize pH? That is what buffers do.
Or are you suggesting that one measure alkalinity and get that adjusted with buffer, instead of just adding buffer without measuring alkalinity? I can agree to that. One should not add buffer to "fix" the pH without knowing if the alkalinity is low, and how low it is.
If that is what you meant, great.

I'm sure Bang can explain better than I can, however, what I am trying to say is if your pH is low, then you shouldn't add a buffer to try to fix it without knowing what the alkalinity is also, as well as the calcium. you should not just target the ph with buffer, instead, find out what the alkalinity is and target that if it is indeed the problem.
The normal trend for pH in a tank is downward, or more acidic. The additions of acids into a tank will lower the pH in the tank water. These acids come from several sources, the primary ones being: (1) excess carbon dioxide (CO2) from respiration caused by lack of sufficient gas exchange, (2) nitric acid from biological filtration (nitrification), and (3) organic acids from metabolic wastes. Respiration and metabolic wastes are a natural part of the ocean. The reason that sea water pH does not change is that sea water contains a number of chemicals, such as bicarbonate, calcium, carbonate, borate and hydroxide, which act as natural "buffers" that retard the drop in pH.
Also important to note is the degree to which a solution maintains its pH when acid is added is termed the "alkalinity" of the solution. Ah alkalinity thats what you need to target. If you find that the alk is not the problem then you need to look at the other things like the gas exchange or the acids from heavy DOC's that might be causing problems.
Whew, I know I'm sometimes hard to follow, and my posts are not as elloquent or well thought out like NMR or BGuy but I hope that helps say what I'm trying to communicate.
Thomas
 

ctgretzky9

Member
Ok...did a water change last night and then tested the water this morning after 250 w mh light was on for half hour and all fish were swimming actively:
ph 8.2 (last night it was 8.4 befor elights off)
alk 7
calc 360
amm/trites o
trates 10
salinity .024
temp 79-80
tested my source water (well water run through a whole house particle filter to 1 micron, through a softener for the home, then throug a countertop uv light/ozone and .05 micron solid carbon filter)
water source:
alk read at 0
ph 7.2
What would be my next step, and of course, thank you soo much!
 

bang guy

Moderator
If it were me I would start dosing both parts of B-Ionic to raise ALK and Ca a little. Don't try to raise them a lot, there's no need. Just follow the recommended dosages for your size tank. Write down what added, how much, and what levels were when tested. After a few days test again to see if levels are rising, falling, or just maintaining. Adjust your dosage accordingly. After a couple weeks try to be in the 400 - 450 Ca range and 8 - 11 dKH Alkalinity range.
For now don't worry about trying to maintain high levels 400Ca and 8dKH is fairly easy to maintain and perfectly adequate for calcifying animals.
Occationally you may need to dose more of one part of B-Ionic than the other to maintain a balance.
 

ctgretzky9

Member
Hey Bang...thanks for writing back!
I thought alk needed to be in the 3.5 range or thereabouts?
I do have both parts of b-ionic, so when I hear from you regarding the alk, I'll start that program.
 

ctgretzky9

Member
Here is what started me wondering about why my watre must be getting off balance...note the zoo chunk on the cc how it is closed up kinda without it's "feelers" ( for lack of a better word) aren't out?
You can see some in the left corner of the second shot.
Sorry, these pics are from last week and I didnt think to take any of the zoos themselves like an idiot.
 
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