can something without a brain feel pain?
- Thread starter taznut
- Start date
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
Can an Anemone react to a shadow and yet not feel pain?
Ahhh.. good point. But...
A clam or anemone reacts to light (shadow). In that case there is certainly no pain.
If you touch an anemone with ice it will pull away from the cold stimulis. Now, if it pulled away from anything touching it we could say it reacts to touch the same. They don't seem to however. They seem to react negatively to very cold. That, to me, says they are experiencing a negative stimulis.
Can an Anemone react to a shadow and yet not feel pain?
Ahhh.. good point. But...
A clam or anemone reacts to light (shadow). In that case there is certainly no pain.
If you touch an anemone with ice it will pull away from the cold stimulis. Now, if it pulled away from anything touching it we could say it reacts to touch the same. They don't seem to however. They seem to react negatively to very cold. That, to me, says they are experiencing a negative stimulis.
30-xtra high
Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Ok.. let's think about this.. If corals don't feel pain how did they ever evolve to react to negative stimulis?
What is pain? Why does a baby cry when they get a shot?
why does a baby cry?... because babies have brains, you just really helped the "they can't feel pain" team.
they react to everything... and like bang guy said, clams react to a shadow, that couldn't possibly hurt, their reaction is exactly the same for everything done to them, god or bad.
if you pick up a rock with corals on it they often shrivel up, does that mean that touching the rock hurts them?
Ok.. let's think about this.. If corals don't feel pain how did they ever evolve to react to negative stimulis?
What is pain? Why does a baby cry when they get a shot?
why does a baby cry?... because babies have brains, you just really helped the "they can't feel pain" team.
they react to everything... and like bang guy said, clams react to a shadow, that couldn't possibly hurt, their reaction is exactly the same for everything done to them, god or bad.
if you pick up a rock with corals on it they often shrivel up, does that mean that touching the rock hurts them?
highcottn1
Member
duh a brain is part of the central nervus system, ok there are 3 different types of nerves, sensery, inter, motor. hint the INTOR nerves are in the brain. lol i just studied this in science class too!
jerthunter
Active Member
Originally Posted by 30-xtra high
why does a baby cry?... because babies have brains, you just really helped the "they can't feel pain" team.
they react to everything... and like bang guy said, clams react to a shadow, that couldn't possibly hurt, their reaction is exactly the same for everything done to them, god or bad.
if you pick up a rock with corals on it they often shrivel up, does that mean that touching the rock hurts them?
Babies will cry even if they aren't in pain... Even in adults there are behaviors that we exhibit that are very similar to reactions to pain that are not caused by pain.
So if a human, with a brain of course, exhibits similar behavior to two different stimuli, one painful and one non-painful then it seems reasonable to say a brainless organism can exhibit a very similar response to two stimuli. Therefore the arguement that a clam doesn't feel pain because it has similar responses to two seperate stimuli doesn't hold up unless you are willing to say that humans therefore cannot experience pain because they often give similar responses to different stimuli.
why does a baby cry?... because babies have brains, you just really helped the "they can't feel pain" team.
they react to everything... and like bang guy said, clams react to a shadow, that couldn't possibly hurt, their reaction is exactly the same for everything done to them, god or bad.
if you pick up a rock with corals on it they often shrivel up, does that mean that touching the rock hurts them?
Babies will cry even if they aren't in pain... Even in adults there are behaviors that we exhibit that are very similar to reactions to pain that are not caused by pain.
So if a human, with a brain of course, exhibits similar behavior to two different stimuli, one painful and one non-painful then it seems reasonable to say a brainless organism can exhibit a very similar response to two stimuli. Therefore the arguement that a clam doesn't feel pain because it has similar responses to two seperate stimuli doesn't hold up unless you are willing to say that humans therefore cannot experience pain because they often give similar responses to different stimuli.
ratrod
Member
When you touch a hot burner on your stove your hand will reflex away, this happens without the use of your brain, the signal goes from your hand to the cord then to the muscles to retract. Corals and and clams react in much of the same way with any stimulus, without the brain the corals do not have the ability to differentiate between cold/hot; light touch/pressure or pain/pleasure or the ability to say sh** when the hand yanks away from the burner lol
30-xtra high
Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
Babies will cry even if they aren't in pain... Even in adults there are behaviors that we exhibit that are very similar to reactions to pain that are not caused by pain.
So if a human, with a brain of course, exhibits similar behavior to two different stimuli, one painful and one non-painful then it seems reasonable to say a brainless organism can exhibit a very similar response to two stimuli. Therefore the arguement that a clam doesn't feel pain because it has similar responses to two seperate stimuli doesn't hold up unless you are willing to say that humans therefore cannot experience pain because they often give similar responses to different stimuli.
we have specific reactions to pain... like maybe.. "ow"? do you say "ow" to anything else... cuase i don't.
and JERTHUNTER, babies cry when they are discomferted in some way, like their stomach hurts because they are hungary.. or their
[hr]
hurts cause its chaffing from the crap in their diapers meaning they need changed.
Babies will cry even if they aren't in pain... Even in adults there are behaviors that we exhibit that are very similar to reactions to pain that are not caused by pain.
So if a human, with a brain of course, exhibits similar behavior to two different stimuli, one painful and one non-painful then it seems reasonable to say a brainless organism can exhibit a very similar response to two stimuli. Therefore the arguement that a clam doesn't feel pain because it has similar responses to two seperate stimuli doesn't hold up unless you are willing to say that humans therefore cannot experience pain because they often give similar responses to different stimuli.
we have specific reactions to pain... like maybe.. "ow"? do you say "ow" to anything else... cuase i don't.
and JERTHUNTER, babies cry when they are discomferted in some way, like their stomach hurts because they are hungary.. or their
[hr]
hurts cause its chaffing from the crap in their diapers meaning they need changed.
catawaba
Active Member
Pain is one of the body's signals that something is 'unpleasant' at the origin..whether it be hot, cold, pressure, injury, or whatever. The nerve endings are sending a message to the 'higher' portion of the system (spinal cord/brain) chemically. The same nervous system sends the chemical messages back to the origin, which are interpreted by the neuromuscular system to cause a reaction....pulling hand away from hot stove, for example.
It is a perception/response to a stimulus.
Reacting to a stimulus is just that....a reaction....you don't stop to 'think' about "Boy that was hot, I should pull my hand away" It is subconscious.
Pain is the perception of the reaction....a feeling, and that is conscious.
Just like an 'itch' or being 'ticklish'
It is a perception/response to a stimulus.
Reacting to a stimulus is just that....a reaction....you don't stop to 'think' about "Boy that was hot, I should pull my hand away" It is subconscious.
Pain is the perception of the reaction....a feeling, and that is conscious.
Just like an 'itch' or being 'ticklish'
jerthunter
Active Member
Originally Posted by 30-xtra high
we have specific reactions to pain... like maybe.. "ow"? do you say "ow" to anything else... cuase i don't.
and JERTHUNTER, babies cry when they are discomferted in some way, like their stomach hurts because they are hungary.. or their
[hr]
hurts cause its chaffing from the crap in their diapers meaning they need changed.
It is easy to tell when your own reactions are caused by pain verses something else however it gets increasingly difficult to determine, based soley on behavior, if a reaction is caused by pain or something else when dealing with other humans, let alone with very different species. People will often, act, and therefore it becomes difficult to determine if their behavior is caused truly by pain or if they are acting. As far as Babies are concerned they do cry because of pain or discomfort but they also cry for other 'selfish' reasons. They learn quickly that cries results in attention.
we have specific reactions to pain... like maybe.. "ow"? do you say "ow" to anything else... cuase i don't.
and JERTHUNTER, babies cry when they are discomferted in some way, like their stomach hurts because they are hungary.. or their
[hr]
hurts cause its chaffing from the crap in their diapers meaning they need changed.
It is easy to tell when your own reactions are caused by pain verses something else however it gets increasingly difficult to determine, based soley on behavior, if a reaction is caused by pain or something else when dealing with other humans, let alone with very different species. People will often, act, and therefore it becomes difficult to determine if their behavior is caused truly by pain or if they are acting. As far as Babies are concerned they do cry because of pain or discomfort but they also cry for other 'selfish' reasons. They learn quickly that cries results in attention.
I
indydirk
Guest
:notsure: OK, just to throw a kink in the works here. I have a neighbor that just last week had a stroke. He has no feeling on the left side of his body (doctors say he may or may not regain this ability), he has a brain, but does not react to any stimulis to the left side at all. Are we to assume that because he does not react that he has no brain?
:notsure: Kind of makes you rethink some things ..........
:notsure: Kind of makes you rethink some things ..........
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
Babies will cry even if they aren't in pain... Even in adults there are behaviors that we exhibit that are very similar to reactions to pain that are not caused by pain.
So if a human, with a brain of course, exhibits similar behavior to two different stimuli, one painful and one non-painful then it seems reasonable to say a brainless organism can exhibit a very similar response to two stimuli. Therefore the arguement that a clam doesn't feel pain because it has similar responses to two seperate stimuli doesn't hold up unless you are willing to say that humans therefore cannot experience pain because they often give similar responses to different stimuli.
Thanks for explaining my point better than I did...
A baby cries before they are old enough to comprehend "pain".
Babies will cry even if they aren't in pain... Even in adults there are behaviors that we exhibit that are very similar to reactions to pain that are not caused by pain.
So if a human, with a brain of course, exhibits similar behavior to two different stimuli, one painful and one non-painful then it seems reasonable to say a brainless organism can exhibit a very similar response to two stimuli. Therefore the arguement that a clam doesn't feel pain because it has similar responses to two seperate stimuli doesn't hold up unless you are willing to say that humans therefore cannot experience pain because they often give similar responses to different stimuli.
Thanks for explaining my point better than I did...
A baby cries before they are old enough to comprehend "pain".
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by ratrod
......, without the brain the corals do not have the ability to differentiate between cold/hot; light touch/pressure or pain/pleasure ...
I disagree. Again, take my anemone example. I can push my finger against it's foot all day long and it won't move. It will move away from ice. So it is feeling cold.
......, without the brain the corals do not have the ability to differentiate between cold/hot; light touch/pressure or pain/pleasure ...
I disagree. Again, take my anemone example. I can push my finger against it's foot all day long and it won't move. It will move away from ice. So it is feeling cold.
I
indydirk
Guest
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Thanks for explaining my point better than I did...
A baby cries before they are old enough to comprehend "pain".
OK, maybe a baby cries before they can comprehend "pain" but you don't have to comprehend or understand to experience it. There are a lot of things that a baby doesn't comprehend that it reacts to, if you make a loud noise it will "involuntarily" jump. The baby does not comprehend what the noise is, it just reacts.
Thanks for explaining my point better than I did...
A baby cries before they are old enough to comprehend "pain".
OK, maybe a baby cries before they can comprehend "pain" but you don't have to comprehend or understand to experience it. There are a lot of things that a baby doesn't comprehend that it reacts to, if you make a loud noise it will "involuntarily" jump. The baby does not comprehend what the noise is, it just reacts.
jerthunter
Active Member
Originally Posted by indydirk
OK, maybe a baby cries before they can comprehend "pain" but you don't have to comprehend or understand to experience it. There are a lot of things that a baby doesn't comprehend that it reacts to, if you make a loud noise it will "involuntarily" jump. The baby does not comprehend what the noise is, it just reacts.
Using that arguement a coral would not have to comprehend pain to be able to experience it.
OK, maybe a baby cries before they can comprehend "pain" but you don't have to comprehend or understand to experience it. There are a lot of things that a baby doesn't comprehend that it reacts to, if you make a loud noise it will "involuntarily" jump. The baby does not comprehend what the noise is, it just reacts.
Using that arguement a coral would not have to comprehend pain to be able to experience it.
I
indydirk
Guest
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
Using that arguement a coral would not have to comprehend pain to be able to experience it.
Correct, and conversely, my neighbor that just had a stroke can comprehend and understand "pain" but on his left side feels nothing and reacts to nothing.
Using that arguement a coral would not have to comprehend pain to be able to experience it.
Correct, and conversely, my neighbor that just had a stroke can comprehend and understand "pain" but on his left side feels nothing and reacts to nothing.
jerthunter
Active Member
Originally Posted by indydirk
Correct, and conversely, my neighbor that just had a stroke can comprehend and understand "pain" but on his left side feels nothing and reacts to nothing.
Interesting point, the experience of pain and the comprehension of pain aren't the same.
Correct, and conversely, my neighbor that just had a stroke can comprehend and understand "pain" but on his left side feels nothing and reacts to nothing.
Interesting point, the experience of pain and the comprehension of pain aren't the same.
ratrod
Member
PHP Code:
[/code]
It cant feel the ice, it just reacts to the stimulus. Pushing your finger against it is not something that will cause the anemone to react. They have cns, but no brian so react yes, differentiate not possible.
Code:
[code]
journeymen
I disagree. Again, take my anemone example. I can push my finger against it's foot all day long and it won't move. It will move away from ice. So it is feeling cold.It cant feel the ice, it just reacts to the stimulus. Pushing your finger against it is not something that will cause the anemone to react. They have cns, but no brian so react yes, differentiate not possible.
poniegirl
Active Member
Hang on, let me call the ex-husband...
Just kidding! I think that, yes, if an organism has nerve endings that produce a reaction to unpleasant stimulus, they feel "pain". Pain is a reaction by a living being to try to make the stimulus stop.
Even the lowest life forms have this reflex, don't they?
Oh, hang on, again...
Just kidding! I think that, yes, if an organism has nerve endings that produce a reaction to unpleasant stimulus, they feel "pain". Pain is a reaction by a living being to try to make the stimulus stop.
Even the lowest life forms have this reflex, don't they?
Oh, hang on, again...
bruder
Member
Just the fact that an animal has a brain doesn't mean it will "feel" pain. Some reptiles (such as many lizards) will remain on surfaces that are far too hot for them, such as hot rocks, that will burn their skin and can cause serious injuries and even death. Now, to you or I, having your skin burn away would certainly fall into the painful category, however, why is it that an animal with a brain, such as a reptile, does not realize what is happening to them and move off of the hot surface?