can something without a brain feel pain?

[indydirk]

One last thing before "shut eye time" .... I will never understand my wife nor will I comprehend her, but that doesn't mean she can't cause me pain ......

Yes dear, I coming ...............

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Ahhh.. good point. But...
A clam or anemone reacts to light (shadow). In that case there is certainly no pain.
If you touch an anemone with ice it will pull away from the cold stimulis. Now, if it pulled away from anything touching it we could say it reacts to touch the same. They don't seem to however. They seem to react negatively to very cold. That, to me, says they are experiencing a negative stimulis.
Very good point. I agree that it invalidates my statement. I don't think negative stimulis is the same as pain though but your point is good.

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by ratrod
When you touch a hot burner on your stove your hand will reflex away, this happens without the use of your brain, the signal goes from your hand to the cord then to the muscles to retract. Corals and and clams react in much of the same way with any stimulus, without the brain the corals do not have the ability to differentiate between cold/hot; light touch/pressure or pain/pleasure or the ability to say sh** when the hand yanks away from the burner lol
And, for humans, the hand is pulled away before the brain registers pain. The reaction to remove the hand does not have to travel all the way to the brain and no pain is felt until the perception of the stimulus actually reaches the brain.

 

[bruder]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
And, for humans, the hand is pulled away before the brain registers pain. The reaction to remove the hand does not have to travel all the way to the brain and no pain is felt until the perception of the stimulus actually reaches the brain.
Totally agree. If a person places their hand on a burner that is OFF, they will instantly remove their hand yet there is no pain. One would argue it is because they have felt the pain before and are going from memory, but how do you remember the feeling of pain?
Another thing we have yet to mention, ghost limbs on humans. Losing a limb but "feeling" that it is still there. I have read that this happens with octopuses as well.

 

[autofreak44]

whats the best way to put this... i guess its just that they are reacting out of self preservation, rather then they feel an "ouch" sensation. because it cant reason, and tell that its just ice or a shadow passing over it, it just has the same self preserving reaction... hide!! its not a matter of pain at all, because what does an anemone, coral, or clam know about pain? its nervous system is far to basic to process the technical chemical reactions needed to actually have pain(havent you ever heard of no head no headache? its true)... reacting to a stimulus such as a shadow, it will hide... touch it and it will hide...its just preserving itself because of all organisims drive to survive... humans can reason, and can attempt to sort out right ant wrong... thats why we need pain, becasue when we dont know that something is wrong, our body has to spell it out in an abrupt and disruptive pain. things without brains cant reason, so why would they need pain? PLAINLY SPEAKING all reactions are out of self preservation, pain or not, and corals, clams, and anemones cant feel pain...
go dallas!!! :cheer:

 

[bang guy]

I think that might be a different subject, Octopii have a brain.

 

[bruder]

I have heard if one of its tentacles are cut off and a piece of food is placed by the limb, it will reach out with the detached tentacle and try and bring it towards its "mouth"
This might just happen because octopii, octopuses, octopus, whatever you may call them have sensors in their tentacles, but how do these sensors work without a brain to send a signal to?

 

[bruder]

And I do know about Chickens with heads cut off and being able to blink after decapitation, but to me this seems different.

 

[surfinusa]

Originally Posted by dcoyle11
some of my co-workers do not have brains but when i slap them up side their head they still feel it! lol
:hilarious

 

[mudplayerx]

I think this thread should be renamed "How do you define the word pain."

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by mudplayerx
I think this thread should be renamed "How do you define the word pain."

That really is it exactly...and also what you call a brain.

 

[ratrod]

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Bang wrote:
And, for humans, the hand is pulled away before the brain registers pain. The reaction to remove the hand does not have to travel all the way to the brain and no pain is felt until the perception of the stimulus actually reaches the brain.

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Bang, if you read my post again you'll see thats what I wrote lol, from the stimulus to the chord to the muscles, sensation is comprehended later by the brain(in humans). The point of differantiation I was trying to make is the difference between animals with a brain and the ones with cns only the ones with cns only(corals/clams) can only react to a certain stimulus somewhat like hand jerk reflex to pain in humans. The example above where someone is talking about burning skin on a reptile to the point of injury is an example of deductive reasoning. The animal definatly feels the pain, not as intense as humans, but deosnt move away because he may not understand that moving will remove the pain or decrease injury. An extreme increase in temp for the reptile may be different.

 

[taznut]

Originally Posted by Catawaba
Pain is one of the body's signals that something is 'unpleasant' at the origin..whether it be hot, cold, pressure, injury, or whatever. The nerve endings are sending a message to the 'higher' portion of the system (spinal cord/brain) chemically. The same nervous system sends the chemical messages back to the origin, which are interpreted by the neuromuscular system to cause a reaction....pulling hand away from hot stove, for example.
It is a perception/response to a stimulus.
Reacting to a stimulus is just that....a reaction....you don't stop to 'think' about "Boy that was hot, I should pull my hand away" It is subconscious.
Pain is the perception of the reaction....a feeling, and that is conscious.
Just like an 'itch' or being 'ticklish'
i disagree with this unconscious reaction idea... touching a hot stove is painful, just because u dont have to think about the pain before you react doesnt prove that it doesnt hurt...

 

[taznut]

Originally Posted by indydirk
:notsure: OK, just to throw a kink in the works here. I have a neighbor that just last week had a stroke. He has no feeling on the left side of his body (doctors say he may or may not regain this ability), he has a brain, but does not react to any stimulis to the left side at all. Are we to assume that because he does not react that he has no brain?
:notsure: Kind of makes you rethink some things ..........
IMO, if you cant feel the stimulus it cant be painful... this is kind of like the people that enjoy what must of us would see as painful (ie. S&M), i dont believe this is pain either (you cant 'enjoy' pain)...

 

[taznut]

Originally Posted by Bruder
Just the fact that an animal has a brain doesn't mean it will "feel" pain. Some reptiles (such as many lizards) will remain on surfaces that are far too hot for them, such as hot rocks, that will burn their skin and can cause serious injuries and even death. Now, to you or I, having your skin burn away would certainly fall into the painful category, however, why is it that an animal with a brain, such as a reptile, does not realize what is happening to them and move off of the hot surface?
sorry im posting several times with quotes, dont know how to put more in one post...
to reply to this, just because something is dangerous doesnt mean that it is painful (lizard on hot rock and burning skin is dangourous but evidently not painful or they would move)... just because one person sees something as painful doesnt mean that everyone will, therefore we can not speak for another species and tell them what is painful, but we can debate whether or not the can feel pain...

 

[taznut]

Originally Posted by Bruder
Another thing we have yet to mention, ghost limbs on humans.
the phantom limb idea supports my side, this happens because the sensory nerves from other areas of the body take over the sensory area in the brain that use to register what was happening to the missing limb (just read this about 30min ago in biological psycology book)...

 

[bruder]

I have been trying to find a study I once saw, but basically here is the short version...Plants were all hooked up to monitors. One scientist came in and brutally destroyed one of the plants in the room. The rest of the plant's readings on the monitors sky-rocketed. For the next month, different scientists came into the room to feed/water the plants and take readings. A month later, the "murderer" came back into the room and without even touching anything, the plant's readings on the monitors again jumped.
Sorry this is kind of off topic, but I think pretty cool none the less.
It is hard to define pain especially because every species (and every individual within that species has a different pain tolerance, IMO)
I kind of like Fenner's corny joke from "Conscious Marine Aquarist" to sum it up.
"Do fish feel?"
"Sure, they feel slimy."
-Fenner, 144

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by Bruder
I have been trying to find a study I once saw, but basically here is the short version...Plants were all hooked up to monitors. One scientist came in and brutally destroyed one of the plants in the room. The rest of the plant's readings on the monitors sky-rocketed. For the next month, different scientists came into the room to feed/water the plants and take readings. A month later, the "murderer" came back into the room and without even touching anything, the plant's readings on the monitors again jumped.
Please excuse me if I'm skeptical.

 

[kelly]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
Please excuse me if I'm skeptical.
I am with Bang Guy on this one. Did the machines actually pick up reactions from the plants or from the scientist? Did they hook up plants that were not in the room at the time of the destruction and monitor them also? Did the machines pick up the "rage" or electrical energy of the scientist destroying the plants and not the plants?
Some scientists are not the brightest people. They get an idea in their mind to try to prove and that is their mindset. If they are trying to disprove it then that is their mindset. Now if they would try both sides, to prove and disprove it, the results might be better. A one sided test always comes out that way, "one sided".
Kelly

 

[ninjamini]

Originally Posted by ophiura
Corals do have a basic nervous system...a nerve net. They can detect stimulus, and of course wage major wars against one another using both chemical and physical means. They can detect negative stimulus. The question is when we attach the term "pain" to it which is somewhat more emotional...and I have gone down this road before with bad results.
They can certainly detect negative stimulus, without a doubt.

Just because something reacts to a stimulus does not mean that it feels pain.
This is not the best example but
When your hand bumps a hot surface you pull away before you have had time to register pain. That is a genetic reflex. Don't confuse that with feeling pain. Unless you want to define pain as:
"Something that causes a reaction to a negative stimulus"