Can we learn anything from this story?

[aggiealum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phixer http:///t/396198/can-we-learn-anything-from-this-story#post_3535444

Why? it's the old adage manifested.

When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns. That genie escaped the bottle over 100 years ago. You will never get the guns out out of criminals hands unless you use guns to do so. Mexico has a weak and corrupt Govt run by the criminals thats why they keep their victims (citizens) unarmed.

To disarm the people as Mexico has done has proven to perpetuate them as helpless victims. If Mexican people were allowed to be armed that would not be the case as they would have the capability to defend themselves. Like I said earlier, criminals dont rob gun stores or pawn shops.
Yet another NRA analogy that's a myth. Having fire fights with whoever you think the bad guy is only results in innocent victims getting killed, you included. Although the Mexican government is full of corruption, they do attempt to fight these drug lords on their own turf. I travel quite extensively into the ******** of Mexico, and I've witness some of the gun violence you discussed. However, I've also seen the Federales combat with full force, even going as far as having trucks mounted with .50 calibers, and checkpoints on literally every major thoroughfare. You could arm the Mexican citizens to the hilt, and it would be an effort in futility. You disarm the criminals by making it difficult to obtain the guns they need. There are no "secret gun shops" where only criminals can purchase guns. They go to the same shops and gun shows you do, and buy as many as they can get their hands on.

 

[aggiealum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396198/can-we-learn-anything-from-this-story#post_3535448
Seems to me the issue is border security then......not the second amendment. If the cartel wasn't able to "walk across the border" in the first place the gun purchase would be a non factor.
We have over 1200 miles bordering with Mexico, some where you can simply walk through a stream of water to get across. How exactly would you propose we protect every single mile to insure no one can come or go? They just found another tunnel outside of San Diego that the drug cartels built that was so large you could drive a car through it. If you build a 15 foot fence, they simply use a 16 foot ladder to get over it. Our non-existent gun laws allow these individuals to purchase any weapon they desire. As long as major weaponry is easily accessible, you'll never be able to quell the gun violence in Mexico, or anywhere else in this country for that matter.

 

[darthtang aw]

We have over 1200 miles bordering with Mexico, some where you can simply walk through a stream of water to get across.  How exactly would you propose we protect every single mile to insure no one can come or go?  They just found another tunnel outside of San Diego that the drug cartels built that was so large you could drive a car through it.  If you build a 15 foot fence, they simply use a 16 foot ladder to get over it.  Our non-existent gun laws allow these individuals to purchase any weapon they desire.  As long as major weaponry is easily accessible, you'll never be able to quell the gun violence in Mexico, or anywhere else in this country for that matter.
Seems to me though, the cartels aren't crossing the border to purchase guns from U.S. gun shop owners.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/legal-us-gun-sales-to-mexico-arming-cartels/
By the way, How have you been bionic...................

 

[reefraff]

"Non existent gun laws" LOL! Well if the 0bama administration would follow the law instead of trying to create a narrative there would be a lot fewer guns in the hands of the Cartels.

If we change the laws so nobody gets public services unless they first show they are in the country legally, Require E Verify, create a smart work visa system and require the Social Security Administration to immediately report multiple uses of Social Security numbers to Immigration we could kill nearly all illegal immigration so the border patrol can concentrate on stopping gun and drug runners instead of maids and tomato pickers.

 

[2quills]

Stop the war on drugs, the cartels won't need to exist and we can keep our guns. Badda boom badda bang....next issue.

 

[phixer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/396198/can-we-learn-anything-from-this-story#post_3535450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phixer http:///t/396198/can-we-learn-anything-from-this-story#post_3535442
Aggie, Why own any guns if you trust big brother to protect you? Somewhat hypocritical... Do you really believe the police are there to serve or protect the people? Police are there to enforce the will of politicians which is not the will of most people as indicated by approval ratings. Do you actually think they are capable of PREVENTING crime? PD gets the call afterwards and they respond unless you live in an "unrespectable" area, then it takes awhile.

And why are crime rates going up everywhere except where people are armed?

When was the last time a gun store was robbed?

and...

Why do the cops show up after a crime has been committed instead of patrolling pro-actively to prevent crime?...Oh yeah not enough money...LOL
It's only called paranoia by potential victims ... those who choose not to become victims call it preparedness.

When was the last time a pawn shop was robbed?

It may sound corny...and I respect your viewpoint... but the difference between you and I is that you trust the system... I dont.
I primarily use my guns for sport. They also provide an added bonus of being able to protect my home in case of some intrusion. Of course the cops can't be everywhere at all times, but in most cities they do patrol in the higher crime areas to deter the criminals from even attempting to do something illegal. I've lived in the same home for over 20 years, and have never had one break-in attempt. I've a couple of slashed tires from some smart alec kids in the neighborhood, but I've never felt like I had to continually look over my shoulder fearing someone would try and rob me. Again, that's called paranoia.

Your crime statistics are quite flawed. Texas has some of the highest ratios of gun to individuals that own them, and there are multiple crimes with guns on a daily basis. Funny you should say pawn shops, because one here in Houston was just robbed not too long ago. Same with gun shops. They simply wait until the middle of the night to break into those. Cities like Detroit and Chicago have had higher crimes rates mainly due to the high unemployment numbers in those cities. When your economic structure collapses, crime rates climb.

I trust the system to a degree. I don't believe in taking the law into my own hands unless absolutely necessary, and within the confines of my personal property. I've read about too many incidents where two individuals have a disagreement about whatever, and the next thing you know there's a fire fight. I had a friend get into a road rage incident the other day, and his car got hit with 4 bullets simply because he accidentally cutoff someone as he was changing lanes.
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Your crimes statistics are flawed Agie. Greatly flawed, this is simply not true at all and totally false propaganda although anything can be cut and pasted so finding something on line to support or disprove it is easy. I base my facts of my own personal experience, which is of course only an opinion but it's real enough for me. Although there is one element of truth in this...when the economy collapses crime rated do increase. Better to be armed.

I was in Houston, Dallas and Austin last week and considering the traffic in Houston I can see why there is an increase in road rage. After living in Japan for 7 years I can easily say that the traffic in Houston compares to Tokyo.

The cops didnt appear to very effective at preventing your friend from getting shot at either.

 

[phixer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/396198/can-we-learn-anything-from-this-story/20#post_3535451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phixer http:///t/396198/can-we-learn-anything-from-this-story#post_3535444

Why? it's the old adage manifested.

When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns. That genie escaped the bottle over 100 years ago. You will never get the guns out out of criminals hands unless you use guns to do so. Mexico has a weak and corrupt Govt run by the criminals thats why they keep their victims (citizens) unarmed.

To disarm the people as Mexico has done has proven to perpetuate them as helpless victims. If Mexican people were allowed to be armed that would not be the case as they would have the capability to defend themselves. Like I said earlier, criminals dont rob gun stores or pawn shops.
Yet another NRA analogy that's a myth. Having fire fights with whoever you think the bad guy is only results in innocent victims getting killed, you included. Although the Mexican government is full of corruption, they do attempt to fight these drug lords on their own turf. I travel quite extensively into the ******** of Mexico, and I've witness some of the gun violence you discussed. However, I've also seen the Federales combat with full force, even going as far as having trucks mounted with .50 calibers, and checkpoints on literally every major thoroughfare. You could arm the Mexican citizens to the hilt, and it would be an effort in futility. You disarm the criminals by making it difficult to obtain the guns they need. There are no "secret gun shops" where only criminals can purchase guns. They go to the same shops and gun shows you do, and buy as many as they can get their hands on.
That has not been my experience at all, and I've experienced combat many times over a 30yr military career, too much of it up close and personal. Your confusing the role of an armed citizen with that of a police state. The role of of an armed citizen is of a defensive posture. Sorry if I led you to think otherwise. I respect your opinion ... but it's not how I experienced it at all.

You keep forgetting that these guns already exist in the hands of criminals. What is to become of these guns are they to simply vanish? When you disarm people you create victims. Being armed has kept me alive in many circumstances and in many countries, too many circumstances to list here. There is also a huge black market for silenced and automatic weapons of which many are foreign made and are not coming from the US into Mexico evident when you trace the serial numbers to the country of origin. Innocent victims are already being killed and the criminals are flourishing because these people cannot defend themselves.

Im not suggesting that armed citizens pro-actively hunt down a better armed adversary but rather that they be provided with the means to defend themselves if necessary. Perhaps the answer is a better trained and equipped Mexican military that isnt on the take. Maybe we leave them alone and focus on our own issues. Choose to accept it or not there are casualties in any violent situation but when you disarm the people the casualties of the innocent greatly increase.

You remove the guns from criminals by relentlessly pursuing them 24/7 without rest by using superior intel, tactics and firepower to destroy them ... and then you pry the weapons from their lifeless fingers. Not by blocking the sales of guns to law abiding citizens, these folks arent the problem. They want peace. Disarming good people is like removing the teeth from a wolf and expecting it to live in the wild.

As a combat veteran I've dealt with armed conflict my entire adult life and have been in some pretty intense situations I dont talk about. Can tell you all about Mexico, worked there on many occasions. On another level you may want to look into the Ramos and Campion case and the how the govt initially treated these two brave men before enough people pushed back in their defense and Bush commuted them.

 

[aggiealum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phixer http:///t/396198/can-we-learn-anything-from-this-story/20#post_3535469
That has not been my experience at all, and I've experienced combat many times over a 30yr military career, too much of it up close and personal. Your confusing the role of an armed citizen with that of a police state. The role of of an armed citizen is of a defensive posture. Sorry if I led you to think otherwise. I respect your opinion ... but it's not how I experienced it at all.

You keep forgetting that these guns already exist in the hands of criminals. What is to become of these guns are they to simply vanish? When you disarm people you create victims. Being armed has kept me alive in many circumstances and in many countries, too many circumstances to list here. There is also a huge black market for silenced and automatic weapons of which many are foreign made and are not coming from the US into Mexico evident when you trace the serial numbers to the country of origin. Innocent victims are already being killed and the criminals are flourishing because these people cannot defend themselves.

Im not suggesting that armed citizens pro-actively hunt down a better armed adversary but rather that they be provided with the means to defend themselves if necessary. Perhaps the answer is a better trained and equipped Mexican military that isnt on the take. Maybe we leave them alone and focus on our own issues. Choose to accept it or not there are casualties in any violent situation but when you disarm the people the casualties of the innocent greatly increase.

You remove the guns from criminals by relentlessly pursuing them 24/7 without rest by using superior intel, tactics and firepower to destroy them ... and then you pry the weapons from their lifeless fingers. Not by blocking the sales of guns to law abiding citizens, these folks arent the problem. They want peace. Disarming good people is like removing the teeth from a wolf and expecting it to live in the wild.

As a combat veteran I've dealt with armed conflict my entire adult life and have been in some pretty intense situations I dont talk about. Can tell you all about Mexico, worked there on many occasions. On another level you may want to look into the Ramos and Campion case and the how the govt initially treated these two brave men before enough people pushed back in their defense and Bush commuted them.
This response pretty much explains your logic behind your obsession with being armed to the hilt. Having a career in the military, being deployed to volatile regions where someone is shooting at you, or the potential of getting shot, would be justification for why your attitudes towards gun ownership are so adament. Have you been diagnosed with PTSD? As far as citizens being armed, there's a limitation as to the extent of how someone should arm themselves. Sorry, I don't care to live in a country where anyone and everyone is seen walking around "packing" a gun on their side. It provides too many opportunities for situations to get out of hand. You also have a mispercecption of the term "criminal". I asked before, when does a responsible gun owner become a criminal?

"You remove the guns from criminals by relentlessly pursuing them 24/7 without rest by using superior intel, tactics and firepower to destroy them ... and then you pry the weapons from their lifeless fingers. Not by blocking the sales of guns to law abiding citizens, these folks arent the problem. They want peace. Disarming good people is like removing the teeth from a wolf and expecting it to live in the wild."

Sorry, but this isn't Iraq or Afghanistan. I would like to think Mexico isn't either, but sorry to say, there are regions of that country that might as well be.

 

[2quills]

Yet another NRA analogy that's a myth.  Having fire fights with whoever you think the bad guy is only results in innocent victims getting killed, you included.  Although the Mexican government is full of corruption, they do attempt to fight these drug lords on their own turf.  I travel quite extensively into the ******** of Mexico, and I've witness some of the gun violence you discussed.  However, I've also seen the Federales combat with full force, even going as far as having trucks mounted with .50 calibers, and checkpoints on literally every major thoroughfare.  You could arm the Mexican citizens to the hilt, and it would be an effort in futility.  You disarm the criminals by making it difficult to obtain the guns they need.  There are no "secret gun shops" where only criminals can purchase guns.  They go to the same shops and gun shows you do, and buy as many as they can get their hands on.
No secret gun shops? Ever hear of the silk road web site?
What good would closing down all of the legal shops do? By your own logic (build a 15ft wall they'll just grap a 16ft ladder) they'll simply find another avenue to get what they want.
You said yourself that crime is a reflection of povertyor unemployment. So what would you actually solve with more gun laws? You don't think people in mexico know who the bad guys are in their neighborhoods?

 

[darthtang aw]

No secret gun shops? Ever hear of the silk road web site?
What good would closing down all of the legal shops do? By your own logic (build a 15ft wall they'll just grap a 16ft ladder) they'll simply find another avenue to get what they want.
You said yourself that crime is a reflection of povertyor unemployment. So what would you actually solve with more gun laws? You don't think people in mexico know who the bad guys are in their neighborhoods?
My link already showed U.S. guns laws aren't the issue. Hence why no response on it from Aggie. Aggie has resorted to attacking others personal aspects (PTSD comment) rather than debate the issue.
Hey Aggie, here in New mexico it is legal to openly carry a gun. We like our Gun Laws and our Guns. Guess what...1 in 1000 might carry a gun openly.

 

[2quills]

My link already showed U.S. guns laws aren't the issue. Hence why no response on it from Aggie. Aggie has resorted to attacking others personal aspects (PTSD comment) rather than debate the issue.
Oh I know. These debates are beginning to feel vaguely farmiliar now that you mention it. That is unless all democrats share the same hypocritical traits.
Ive never known a sport shooter to back the "more gun laws" attitude the way that Aggie does.

 

[darthtang aw]

Oh I know. These debates are beginning to feel vaguely farmiliar now that you mention it. That is unless all democrats share the same hypocritical traits.
Ive never known a sport shooter to back the "more gun laws" attitude the way that Aggie does.
Yep. The positions and views are exactly the same...right down to the road rage stories and tours of Mexico. The job is just different.
Darth (I see banned people) tang

 

[phixer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/396198/can-we-learn-anything-from-this-story/20#post_3535473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phixer http:///t/396198/can-we-learn-anything-from-this-story/20#post_3535469
That has not been my experience at all, and I've experienced combat many times over a 30yr military career, too much of it up close and personal. Your confusing the role of an armed citizen with that of a police state. The role of of an armed citizen is of a defensive posture. Sorry if I led you to think otherwise. I respect your opinion ... but it's not how I experienced it at all.

You keep forgetting that these guns already exist in the hands of criminals. What is to become of these guns are they to simply vanish? When you disarm people you create victims. Being armed has kept me alive in many circumstances and in many countries, too many circumstances to list here. There is also a huge black market for silenced and automatic weapons of which many are foreign made and are not coming from the US into Mexico evident when you trace the serial numbers to the country of origin. Innocent victims are already being killed and the criminals are flourishing because these people cannot defend themselves.

Im not suggesting that armed citizens pro-actively hunt down a better armed adversary but rather that they be provided with the means to defend themselves if necessary. Perhaps the answer is a better trained and equipped Mexican military that isnt on the take. Maybe we leave them alone and focus on our own issues. Choose to accept it or not there are casualties in any violent situation but when you disarm the people the casualties of the innocent greatly increase.

You remove the guns from criminals by relentlessly pursuing them 24/7 without rest by using superior intel, tactics and firepower to destroy them ... and then you pry the weapons from their lifeless fingers. Not by blocking the sales of guns to law abiding citizens, these folks arent the problem. They want peace. Disarming good people is like removing the teeth from a wolf and expecting it to live in the wild.

As a combat veteran I've dealt with armed conflict my entire adult life and have been in some pretty intense situations I dont talk about. Can tell you all about Mexico, worked there on many occasions. On another level you may want to look into the Ramos and Campion case and the how the govt initially treated these two brave men before enough people pushed back in their defense and Bush commuted them.
This response pretty much explains your logic behind your obsession with being armed to the hilt. Having a career in the military, being deployed to volatile regions where someone is shooting at you, or the potential of getting shot, would be justification for why your attitudes towards gun ownership are so adament. Have you been diagnosed with PTSD? As far as citizens being armed, there's a limitation as to the extent of how someone should arm themselves. Sorry, I don't care to live in a country where anyone and everyone is seen walking around "packing" a gun on their side. It provides too many opportunities for situations to get out of hand. You also have a mispercecption of the term "criminal". I asked before, when does a responsible gun owner become a criminal?

"You remove the guns from criminals by relentlessly pursuing them 24/7 without rest by using superior intel, tactics and firepower to destroy them ... and then you pry the weapons from their lifeless fingers. Not by blocking the sales of guns to law abiding citizens, these folks arent the problem. They want peace. Disarming good people is like removing the teeth from a wolf and expecting it to live in the wild."

Sorry, but this isn't Iraq or Afghanistan. I would like to think Mexico isn't either, but sorry to say, there are regions of that country that might as well be.
There are circumstances when one must take the high road. Your not getting it and Im not sure you can. Stay safe little girl and the people with real guns who stand the watch will continue to protect you no matter what your beliefs.

 

[bang guy]

Quote:
~~Sorry, I don't care to live in a country where anyone and everyone is seen walking around "packing" a gun on their side.

That's very easy to correct, you're not far from Mexico.

Quote:
~~when does a responsible gun owner become a criminal?

When they are convicted of a crime. No different than someone that doesn't own a gun.