Caulerpa Question

[sal t. nutz]

Does this stuff actually remove Nitrates, or does it just act like a skimmer and remove stuff that would become nitrates? In other words (not that this is the case for me) if you had a tank with high Nitrates, and added a refugium with caulerpa, would the Nitrates go down, or just not get any higher?

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by Sal T. Nutz
Does this stuff actually remove Nitrates
Absolutely.
Remember though that the nutrients are not really gone until the Caulerpa is removed from the system.
After a month or two of growing Caulerpa you should see a noticeable decline in Nitrate. This is assuming that you're not totally overloading your system with nutrients.

 

[sal t. nutz]

WHat do you eman they aren't gone until you remove the caulerpa? If you test the water and it shows 0ppm, they are gone. If the Caulerpa converts nitrates to Nitrogen gas, then they are gone. Other than that, I don't know of any other way they can be removed. Just like CO2 is ingested by Plants and O2 is released. The CO2 is gone. Am I wrong about this?

 

[hondo]

Macro feed off nitrates. Of course if you leave the macro in the system then the nitrates are still there that is why you need to harvest the macro and remove it from the system (meaning don't feed your tangs and things with it as you are putting the nitrates right back into the system). Of course adding a refugium will reduce some of the skimmate Amount your skimmer produces as it does trap particles out of the water column which then are consumed by your refugium inhabitants.

 

[nacl-h2o]

Actually caulerpa also use ammonia and nitrite, so in a way they are also removing some of it before in becomes nitrates. They also remove nitrates and phosphates. If you leave it in to decay with mass or age or allow it to go sexual then it's mass is converted to ammonia begining the cycle and reintroducing the nitrates it had already removed by being bound up in the algae. So you must harvest it to remove it. Remember anything that decays is converted to ammonia starting the nitrogen cycle. If you remove the caulerpa you remove the nitrogen contained there in.
Nitrogen is used in the by algae to create important structures and chimical neccessary for growth and life, that's how the nitrogen is removed from the system, so if you let it decay all the good little bacteria in your systen will take those algae structures and chemicals and process them leaving ammonia. Remove some of the algae, remove some of the nitrates.

 

[sal t. nutz]

Ok, letting it decay is understandable, obviously, decay and rotting will cause ammonia. Which through bioballs will become Nitrates eventually. However, I don't see how it is possible that the Caulerpa would directly release Nitrates. It already converted the nitrates to Nitrogen gas. The Nitrates aren't stored up in the Caulerpa, like it removes them and stores them. It converts them and finishes the Nitrogen cycle, right? So, it REALLY makes no sense to say not to feed it to your Tangs. That is what I would feed them from the store anyway, just with other junk mixed in. How would feeding it to you Tangs cause it to reintroduce Nitrates? Granted, the Tnags will then crap, and cause Ammonia, which will become Nitrates, but then the Caulerpa that you still have growing will remove those.

 

[nacl-h2o]

Caulerpa do not convert all there nitrates into Nitrogen, most is used in creating the building blocks needed for growth. Algaes need two things to grow Carbon and Nitrogen. They get their carbon from carbon dioxide and their nitrogen from nitrate, nitrite or ammonia. An algae that is not growing is hardly using any nitrate. If you never harvest the caulerpa will only grow so larg before it runs out of resources(where some individuals will starve the others out of neccessary trace elements or nutrients) and or space(where some individuals will shade others depriving them of needed light) either of which will cause some of it to start deing or just stop growing and then going sexual then dieing. Both result in all the nitrogen bound up in the algae being converted into ammonia by bacteria rereleasing it back into your system. The only way to remove larg amounts of nitrates for your system quikly and perminatly with algae is to allow it to grow harvest some and allow it to regrow using more nitrates and continue to harvest. It's not truley removed until you remove it from the tank.

 

[striker]

What's a good alternative to caulerpa that won't go asexual and is just as hardy? Do they all go asexual eventually or does this happen only sometimes?

 

[eddie g]

How do you harvest algae and about how often does this have to be done?
Eddie G

 

[broomer5]

Eddie G.
You harvest the caulerpa in the refugium by reaching in and grabbing it, and either tossing it out, give to friends, sell back to lfs or feed your veggie loving fish ( if you have them ).
I remove handfulls at least once a month, sometimes more often - removing about 75% of the growth.

 

[nacl-h2o]

I remove 2/3 of what's in the refugium every couple weeks.
To help aviod it going sexual you can run the lights 24hrs and dose iron and iodine (in small amounts) or a macro algae supplement. Both of these have been known to help reduce or eliminate the occurences. Another good idea is to keep it as many smaller strands of caulerpa instead of a few larger strands this way if one does go sexual it's no big deal. And keeping more than one type is also a good idea. I suggest at least 3 types.
I don't know of another non-pest algae that removes nutrients as well as caulerpa. I have heard of some people using a type of turf algae, but I don't know the name and as with simular algaes it has the ability to get out of control. HTH

 

[sal t. nutz]

NACL,
Your post makes sense, and is basically what I was saying. The Nitrates are gone, but will be reintroduced if allowed to decay and cause Ammonia to start the Nitrogen cycle all over again. Also, like I said, I don't beleive for a minute that if you feed your fish the Caulerpa that you grew, that will put the Nitrates back in the water.
On a side note, what does it mean for the Caulerpa to go "Sexual"? What exactly happens and why is this bad?

 

[madd catt]

Yes,what the plant is doing is leaching the oils back out into the tank...For instance make a cup of herb tea chamomile or any such herb or lipton tea let it steep for a few minuts than before you put milk or anything else in it look for the oil slick on top that is where the chemicals are in lipton that would be the caffein or in herb tea the chemicals that make up plants or herbs such as valerian root also in flowers those oils make up perfume.So that is how your tank gets polluted from algea by leaching and other ways.Other folks may have a better example.

 

[broomer5]

Macro algae, like most green plants, need light, water, CO2 and various nutrients or elements.
Nitrogen in many forms, carbon, iron, phosphorous, oxygen, and a whole host of other organic proteins and inorganic compounds.
It simply uses these things to grow, to create new plant tissue, to produce simple sugars for cell respiration and to sustain itself.
Feeding it to another animal just allows these proteins and nutrients to be converted to waste products, broken down by the animals metabolism, and these wastes then re-fuel the nitrogen cycle, as well as other chemical reactions that occur in any ecosystem.
Most any green plant, be it micro or macro algae will accomplish what we're wanting it to do - it's just the macro's are so much easier for us to remove from the system - that they are the prefered plant.
Growing sheets of micro algae ( nuisance algae ) on a removable hard surface would do the same thing, but we try to avoid this stuff in our tanks - and having it grow in the fuge, although possible, is a pretty scarey thought.
Exchange of nutrients and light for energy, and creating wastes and by-products is what most all green lifeforms do to survive.
We just want something that we can easily grab, harvest and get rid of - caulerpa is great for this.
It really is a facinating thing to think about.

 

[sal t. nutz]

Madd Cat,
Releasing oils or any other polutants is one thing, but directly releasing Nitrates is another. the Caulerpa doesn't contain any Nitrates to release. I am not saying that I don't think that there is some sort of byproduct released back into the water, but while it is sitting in your refugium, is it not realsing it then too? If you feed it to your Tangs right away, the plant hasn't had time to die yet, so it would be no different than it stiing in your refugium. Granted, the Tangs will tear it up, releasing whatever is on the inside of the plant, but that is not Nitrates. Also, you have to feed your Tangs anyway right? Most of the frozen food you buy at the LFS for them is mostly Caulerpa anyway. I think it is uninformed to say that you should not feed your Tangs the Caulerpa that you grow as it will polute your system.

 

[sal t. nutz]

Broomer,
Please see the post before my last one and explain the whole "sexual" thing to me.

 

[madd catt]

Actually i never said that live caulurpa would pollute the tank, sorry if it came out wrong.I meant that if the algea had died that it would leach back into the aquarium not when it was still active.And your idea of the tang bumping into the algea is pretty good because cats will not touch catnip untill the oils from the plant have been released ie:rubbing on the leaves of the plant or smelling dried catnip in a package that has been rubbed against.And i did not say anything about not feeding your tangs??? Also did not say that it would be nitrates that would be released there are other chemicals as well that might help pollute.Also dead algea may cloud water over time similar to falling leaves in a puddle that leach their oils over time and discolor the water. The caulurpa probably does take up more ammonia as well as land plants in fact some gardeners us urine in thier fertallizer for their garden.

 

[broomer5]

Sal T. Nutz
I'm not one to get into the actual chemical toxins that can be released from caulerpa upon going sexual - because I honestly just don't know the details.
I believe there are some pretty nasty organic compounds, or things in the released gamates that can quickly pollute our tanks - but I'm sorry I don't have more details, and I've never experienced this before in my refugium/tank.
I've seen some good posts here describing these compounds - but apparently I was not paying attention in class that day
I'm sure someone here that knows will contribute to this discussion - I'd like to know too.

 

[nacl-h2o]

The way cualerpa reproduces is to convert part of it's body mass into gemetes which are released into the water to spread the algae to other areas. This kills the rest of that individual algae. This is called "going sexual".
I don't know the whole scope of what's released when caulerpa goes sexual, but I do know some of it. Problem one comes in tanks with lower bio-filtering ability when larg amounts of caulerpa go sexual and that is with an ammonia spike from decaying body mass. Another problem is that as caulerpa(or any algae) grows they absorb chemicals including organic toxins from to water column. These toxins in small amounts in the aquarium will not cause a problem, but in some circumstances when larg amounts of caulerpa go sexual it can release all the toxins it has absorbed over time at once and may harm or kill something sensitive to them starting problems. This is why we go through steps to avoid letting it go sexual or take steps to make sure when it dose it's infrequint and the impact is low. There may be other things released and probably are, but I don't know what they are.
Also, like I said, I don't beleive for a minute that if you feed your fish the Caulerpa that you grew, that will put the Nitrates back in the water.
Not directly no, but the end result is the same. Caulerpa absorb nitrates, nitrites or ammonia to gain nitrogen it can use in the building blocks for growth. When fish eat the caulerpa and digest it and it is then pasted as waste, many of these same structures still containing nitrogen(not as nitrates, but as other compounds) exist in the waste and even more are processed and released as ammonia(containing nitrogen) in urine. The nitrogen containing structures in the waste are the are then converted into ammonia(containing nitrogen) by bacteria. The ammonia from the bacteria and the ammonia from the fish urine are then converted into nitrites and then nitrates by other bacteria. And are back in your tank as nitrates. You can't follow the nitrates you have to follow the nitrogen that's why it's called the nitrogen cycle.
N=Nitrogen
NO3=nitrate absorbed by algae to make amino acids(which contain N) and protien structurs(which contain N) amoung others, most containing nitrogen(to many chemical variations to mention).
Then eaten by fish whos excriment contains Nitrogen as undigested proteins amino acids ammonia(NH4) and other undigesable componds some of which contain N. Which are then converted into ammonia(NH4) by bacteria and then into nitrite(NO2) by bacteria and then at last into nitrates(NO3) by bacteria once again in your tank. Does this help.

 

[nacl-h2o]

As I read over what I wrote this morning, it seems as thou I'm saying not to feed the caulerpa you grew to your tangs. I'm not, I was just explaining what he meant by your putting the nitrates back in and how it works. As long as your feeding them the cauplera as a replacement for food you would normaly buy and feed them it's OK. Your just saving money. Your just putting free nutrients(eventually nitrates) in your tank, as food, rather than something you bought, which will also become nitrates. The fish have to eat and their excrament will become nitrates either way. The problem comes if people use it as extra food which will then become extra nutrients and nitrates. Sorry, if you interpreted it that way it was not my intent.