Common misconceptions on swf.com

[viper_930]

Originally Posted by crimzy
Let me explain. When you ghost feed and use liverock to cycle, in my experience, you get a "lighter" cycle. Typically these methods produce less of a spike and produce less beneficial bacteria. Now, depending on how much food is actually used, this cycle may be sufficient to support fish, or it may not be... this is the difficulty. With damsels, the tank becomes established with the fish waste already being produced. It is easier to know that the cycle has produced enough bacteria to support livestock.
Why would ghost feeding produce less beneficial bacteria? The only answer I can think of to that would be if you're not feeding enough.
I don't understand how already having the damsel through the cycle would prove the tank is ready for more fish. You could just as easily add a damsel as a tester AFTER cycling via the ghost feeding or shrimp method. Not to mention damsels are hardier than other fish anyways, so it's not really a proof unless you plan on adding more damsels.

 

[murph]

Lots of different opinions here and I will admit that have not taken the time to read through all of them prior to this response but here is one thing I know to be fact.
If it were not for ammonia detoxifiers and other chemicals that unfortunately can not be tested for this hobby would not exist. Shipping and holding would be impossible.
These are somewhat fragile wild caught animals and if the average hobbyist were aware of the staggering losses/deaths of these animals prior to there arrival at the retail level many would not start there tanks. To then enter into debate about one method of cycling a tank over another or the six foot rule etc. borders on the absurd.
With that said I suspect much of the debate about methods is more geared toward making the hobbyist feel better about the situation than actually making a substantial difference as far as the animals captive life goes. Once adapted to aquarium life the animal is far more likely to live to longer than expected life span than in the wild were predation will eventually end its life in one quick cut.
We also need to keep things in perspective here. Many of the species we pay top dollar for are as likely to be found in a bait bucket as a shipping bag in the areas of the world in which they originate and I am sure there is wide spread laughter in these areas when the locals hear what we pay for them over here.

 

[seattle]

I have no idea how I should reply to this thread

 

[myreef05]

Originally Posted by Seattle
I have no idea how I should reply to this thread

Noone is listening now anyway. They are all trying to defend "their" method right or wrong. The thread wa started to create problems and arguements it seems as the other "non-lethal" methods have been explained and documented and still argued. The thread lost it's usefullness thats for sure as it is falling on death ears now.

 

[groupergenius]

I'm a newbie to this site. I'm a newbie to trying a "reef tank" to todays standards. But I have been keeping succsessfully SW fish, inverts, and soft corals for 35 years. Way before refugiums, test kits, 6' tank rules, power compacts, T5, and even friggin' powerheads.
Seems to me it's become maybe some kind of yuppie, PETA, approved past-time. Ya'll think nothing twice about keeping a cat in your house, a bird in a cage, a dog in your yard, but somehow a pent up fish is different.

Rant over....

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
You're failing to address 2 issues here:
1. What becomes of the damsels
2. Does a cycle really matter if you are using a product like Prime
1. Mine live in my fuge. They are great at cleaning out uneaten pieces of food. They have been used to cycle multiple tanks when necessary. Shocked??

2. I don't use the product.
Originally Posted by myreef05
The thread lost it's usefullness thats for sure as it is fallinng on death ears now.
Oh I assure you that my ears are very much alive... but thanks for the english lesson.

And if you detest this discussion so much then why do you continue to respond?

 

[trippkid]

Have to go with GrouperGenius on this. 20yrs in the hobby

 

[viper_930]

You bring up a few very good points, Murph.
Originally Posted by Murph
These are somewhat fragile wild caught animals and if the average hobbyist were aware of the staggering losses/deaths of these animals prior to there arrival at the retail level many would not start there tanks. To then enter into debate about one method of cycling a tank over another or the six foot rule etc. borders on the absurd.
Drastic losses in transport to even get a fish to a home aquarium is a dark side of the hobby that can't be helped much at all. But just because nine fish died while one survived does not mean we are then obligated to not even put effort into keeping the fish alive and healthy. That is what I call absurd.
Originally Posted by Murph
With that said I suspect much of the debate about methods is more geared toward making the hobbyist feel better about the situation than actually making a substantial difference as far as the animals captive life goes. Once adapted to aquarium life the animal is far more likely to live to longer than expected life span than in the wild were predation will eventually end its life in one quick cut.
We also need to keep things in perspective here. Many of the species we pay top dollar for are as likely to be found in a bait bucket as a shipping bag in the areas of the world in which they originate and I am sure there is wide spread laughter in these areas when the locals hear what we pay for them over here.
Are you saying it's ok to rescue (I mean that lightly) an animal from imminent death only to mistreat it as long as it lives? There's a difference between an animals (relatively) quick death and a slow and possibly miserable life. Yes there's a whole list of things some people eat or use that we hobbyists would pay a lot for. Heck, the clams I spent a paycheck on could have more easily became a fraction of a family's dinner in Indo. Does that make it ok for me to just toss on a normal output light and let it slowly whither away for up to a year before dying?

 

[viper_930]

My ears are still very much alive as well.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by crimzy
1. Mine live in my fuge. They are great at cleaning out uneaten pieces of food. They have been used to cycle multiple tanks when necessary. Shocked??

2. I don't use the product.
So Crimzy is your argument that Damsels are immune to the toxicity of ammonia?

 

[rbaldino]

I feel like I should add my 2 cents as far as the "6 foot rule" is concerned. I'd never heard this rule until I came to this site, and I've been keeping saltwater fish for more than 10 years. Obviously, bigger fish need to be in bigger tanks, but I'd never heard swimming room mentioned in such exact terms. I also find it a bit strange because, really, aren't most of the fish we keep used to having lots of swimming room in nature? Why are tangs the only fish that seem to require an exact minimum? My LFS has a couple of large coral display tanks that are square-shaped, probably about four feet by four feet. There are a couple of tangs in one of these tanks, and they've been there for years, seemingly healthy and content. I think that rather than being concerned about a particular length tank, it's more important to recommend that tangs be kept in roomy tanks that are large enough to handle both the size of the fish and their bioload. And when someone is interested in getting a tang, the "tang police" should provide information more useful than "You need a 6 foot tank" to the interested party. At the very least, don't repeat the "rule" unless you at least have personal experience. To me, far worse that the tang police are the people who repeat particular pieces of "advice" without really knowing why they're saying it.

 

[reefkprz]

quick observation before I head off to work this morning, everyone seems to be taking 6 foot rule of thumb and editing it to mean 6 foot absolute rule. for the over all longevity of the fish healtwise a 6 foot tank (125+) is going to be better and easier to maintain a large free swimmer in than a 4' (55g) wow only 2 feet of different in length , but look at the difference in overall water volume. How hard is it to understand that with that particular type of fish bigger is better? every where (except sellers) scientests and long term hobbyists agree that tangs should have the maximum space possible. every board I have participated on reccomends larger tanks. I dont know how some one could be in the hobby 20+ years and not hear of advancing research that supports larger tanks for tangs? I guess its pretty much a moot point, because your going to reccomend small tanks and I am going to reccomend big tanks, the individual person asking what size tank is going to make their own decision.

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
I'm a newbie to this site. I'm a newbie to trying a "reef tank" to todays standards. But I have been keeping succsessfully SW fish, inverts, and soft corals for 35 years. Way before refugiums, test kits, 6' tank rules, power compacts, T5, and even friggin' powerheads.
Seems to me it's become maybe some kind of yuppie, PETA, approved past-time. Ya'll think nothing twice about keeping a cat in your house, a bird in a cage, a dog in your yard, but somehow a pent up fish is different.

Rant over....

Oh my birds have a 12' x 10' x 8' free flight aviary, for four love birds and two cockatiels. most people would consider this over kill, but to me not allowing your birds free flight is like keeping a tang in a 20g. cats are domesticated and enjoy living in your house, some like being allowed out side, some could care less I have 20 of them and some of the ones that are allowed to go outside dont because they dont want to. dogs have their own particular needs.

 

[murph]

Originally Posted by GrouperGenius
I'm a newbie to this site. I'm a newbie to trying a "reef tank" to todays standards. But I have been keeping succsessfully SW fish, inverts, and soft corals for 35 years. Way before refugiums, test kits, 6' tank rules, power compacts, T5, and even friggin' powerheads.
Seems to me it's become maybe some kind of yuppie, PETA, approved past-time. Ya'll think nothing twice about keeping a cat in your house, a bird in a cage, a dog in your yard, but somehow a pent up fish is different.

Rant over....
I believe you have hit on the real issue here. Many peta, yuppie, environmental wacko types (or whatever you want to label them as) have entered the hobby in recent years. Since the keeping of wild animals runs counter to there otherwise professed beliefs it becomes necessary sooth there underlying guilt by setting up certain standards and methods that qualify as "more humane".
They are then free to further displace that guilt/hypocrisy by criticising any and all other methods and label them as inhumane.
Like I said all of this has way more to do with the psychology of the hobbyist and makes little to no difference when it comes to the livestock.

 

[1journeyman]

So PETA is responsible for me suggesting folks do a little research and maintain proper habitat?
Guys, that's silly.
It's not about being a yuppy or being an animal rights advocate. It's about being a responsible pet owner. I wouldn't buy a puppy and leave it outside in 0 degree weather in the middle of winter, I wouldn't buy a house cat, declaw it and throw it outside, and I don't buy fish on a whim. Nor do I advise other people to do it.
So far the "discussion" has boiled down to:
1. Since Tangs come from the ocean and a lot of them die in transport they don't need bigger tanks. Or folks need to learn for themselves why Tangs need bigger tanks before they advise it.
2. Damsels either are immune to the toxicity of ammonia or must have Ammonia fixing chemical added during a cycle.
Grouper, your analogy is inaccurate. The "PETA" argument would be to not keep fish. I haven't seen anyone argue that. If you check my post history in fact you'll see I'm a huge proponent of the hobby as it educates the public to the needs of the wild reefs around the world. What I and others are arguing is that fish have a minimum habitat requirement AND that there is no reason to use Damsels.

 

[jonthefishguy]

This post is going nowhere! In all actuality, using fish regardless of how much more tolerant they are to handle a cycle and how inexpensive they are to do so, shows that those who still do it, when there are other ways to do it without putting an animal at risk, shows total disregard about responsible reef keeping. I am sure they would think twice if instead of those damsels being 3.99 or so, if they were 20.00 each and still be able to handle the stres level. But, unfortunately, since it ony costs them a few bucks, why not. Forget the 6ft rule. Common sense shoud tell you that these fish that have virtually no boundaries and need as much room as possible and that, putting them in your aquarium and disregarding their needs shows that you just dont care and you will do what you want regardless of whats better for the fish because it looks nice. When a customer is ready to set up a tank whether it be SW or FW, I advise them that they can either go with BIOSPIRA or CYCLE or the SHRIMP technique. Most go with bio or cycle do to the fact that they want a fast and speedy cycle. Getting technical in telling them that the longer your go, will build a better microfauna is complete waste of time. Most of those who start out, have no concept of that the hell you are talking about and will just add more confusion to the process. As they become more educated, then you can discuss future ways. There is no scientific way to do reef keeping, so with that...take everything you read with a grain of salt and stick with what works for you.

 

[stanlalee]

damsels shouldn't die by cycling. If they did you used too many. IF you are cycling with 6 damsels you should have a 240g. simple dilution. at the rate one or two damsels and feeding them say every other day or two produce waste you can not dilute a decent body of water quicker than the bacteria will multiply and begin to process it before it harms or shows any ill effects to damsels. Just like curing 5lbs of rock in 100 gallons wont have the same harmful spike as curing 50lbs in 10 gallons.How do I know. I have cycled a zillion times with damsels and clowns over a 10yr period. never had one die, not eat, look sick, act sick, act lethargic or any different they did a yr later. Did they not like the cycle process? maybe next time I'll ask them. Basically I see it no more unethical than snatching a fish up in a net in the middle of it sleeping, sticking it in a plastic bag, shipping it to various holding facilities, then shipping it to retail stores all over the world who then place 10 fish often not compatiple in a 30g waiting for any idiot with $10-100 to come claim it knowing from the start a good portion will die before they ever make it to a store or shortly after. No less ethical than seeing an eel in a small sealed box inside a fish tank for weeks waiting to be sold because its smart enough to escape.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
So Crimzy is your argument that Damsels are immune to the toxicity of ammonia?
Not immune but tolerant.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by rbaldino
I feel like I should add my 2 cents as far as the "6 foot rule" is concerned. I'd never heard this rule until I came to this site, and I've been keeping saltwater fish for more than 10 years. Obviously, bigger fish need to be in bigger tanks, but I'd never heard swimming room mentioned in such exact terms. I also find it a bit strange because, really, aren't most of the fish we keep used to having lots of swimming room in nature? Why are tangs the only fish that seem to require an exact minimum? My LFS has a couple of large coral display tanks that are square-shaped, probably about four feet by four feet. There are a couple of tangs in one of these tanks, and they've been there for years, seemingly healthy and content. I think that rather than being concerned about a particular length tank, it's more important to recommend that tangs be kept in roomy tanks that are large enough to handle both the size of the fish and their bioload. And when someone is interested in getting a tang, the "tang police" should provide information more useful than "You need a 6 foot tank" to the interested party. At the very least, don't repeat the "rule" unless you at least have personal experience. To me, far worse that the tang police are the people who repeat particular pieces of "advice" without really knowing why they're saying it.
This is exactly what I've been trying to get across.

 

[murph]

So PETA is responsible for me suggesting folks do a little research and maintain proper habitat?
Guys, that's silly.
It's not about being a yuppy or being an animal rights advocate. It's about being a responsible pet owner. I wouldn't buy a puppy and leave it outside in 0 degree weather in the middle of winter, I wouldn't buy a house cat, declaw it and throw it outside, and I don't buy fish on a whim. Nor do I advise other people to do it.

[hr]
I also seriously doubt that you would buy a puppy knowing that thirty to forty percent of them were going to die in transit before reaching the pet shop. You know full well that this is indeed what happens in the aquarium trade.
In fact this is not about being a pet owner at all. Aquarium keeping is a hobby. Some of us understand this and the losses are an acceptable part of the hobby. Others attempt to take comfort by following methods they put fourth as more humane than another based on nothing but anecdotal evidence and have an incredible ability to ignore one exception after the other to the so called rules.
IMO it was the guys who ignored the excepted methods of days gone by that have advanced this hobby in general. For example
I am going to start a tank with wild collected rock. Response. Are you nuts you will introduce mantis shrimp and other carnivores invertebrates let alone the parasite night mare. Its irresponsible to do this.
I am gong to remove my under gravel filter also. Response. Are you nuts where will your biological filtration be housed. It is irresponsible to do this.
I am going to use wild collected sand in place of crushed coral. Response. Same as with the wild collected rock. It is irresponsible to do this.
I am going to attempt a parasite cure by dropping the salinty of my HT tank to 1.009. Response. Are you nuts there is no way sw fish will tolerate that for a month. It is irresponsible to do this.
Turns out irresponsible and or responsible can be relative terms.