tony detroit
Active Member
There are many ways to maintain a successful reef. I've tried them all, other than plenum. I set up a plenum 2 years ago for a friend and it is working great for him. As said earlier there are many ways to do a reef. I ran a DSB, I won't run another one again. BB is so ridiculously easy and CLEAN. It is hard to sway people stuck in their ways. If it works don''t fix it I suppose.
I've seen many DSB tanks in our local club and haven't been very impressed with them.
And I still have a hard time believing that 4'' of sand is somehow going to sustain a tank.
Ask attml what he thinks of his old DSB.
I've seen many DSB tanks in our local club and haven't been very impressed with them.
And I still have a hard time believing that 4'' of sand is somehow going to sustain a tank.
Ask attml what he thinks of his old DSB.
tony detroit
Active Member
Question to anybody using a DSB:
Tell me what it is that your DSB is doing that you could not accomplish without it.
Tell me what it is that your DSB is doing that you could not accomplish without it.
yaksplat
Member
I think that the look is the main thing. If there were a happy medium between the two, I'd go for it. In fact, i'm planning on going with about 1-2" of sand in my 120.
My pistols may redesign that though. 6" deep here, bare there. They prefer to try all methods before deciding on only one.
My pistols may redesign that though. 6" deep here, bare there. They prefer to try all methods before deciding on only one.
tony detroit
Active Member
Originally posted by yaksplat
I think that the look is the main thing.
The "look" of all the DSB tanks I've seen is a ton of algae growth between the sand and glass, algae on the glass, overflows, rocks, and everywhere else.
jamnman
Member
I just took the DSB out of my 120g and converted this tank to mainly SPS.
I couldn’t get the amount of current I wanted without blowing sand all over the place.
Since I have removed the sand I have noticed quit a drop in calcium and alk consumption for some reason my sand was trying to form solid areas.
It was stuck to the bottom of almost every rock touching the sand.
I did like the look better and was able to maintain perfect parameters with it.
I am happier now with more current and the acros seem to love it.
I couldn’t get the amount of current I wanted without blowing sand all over the place.
Since I have removed the sand I have noticed quit a drop in calcium and alk consumption for some reason my sand was trying to form solid areas.
It was stuck to the bottom of almost every rock touching the sand.
I did like the look better and was able to maintain perfect parameters with it.
I am happier now with more current and the acros seem to love it.
msd2
Active Member
Originally posted by tony detroit
Question to anybody using a DSB:
Tell me what it is that your DSB is doing that you could not accomplish without it.
I can think of several things, first off a much happier carpet anemone. He clearly has a preference for stickin his foot in the sand. Secondly the life contained within it simply couldnt exist, if you dont have it, obviously. I can literally watch the pods, worms, etc cruizing around in it. It also can assist in stablizing the water chemistry in your tank.
You could pose the same question back, what are you gaining by going w/o a dsb? I don't have an algae problem, 0 nitrates and enjoy the look of sand. And I will go out on a limb and say my corals are pretty happy considering how much they have grown, and water parameters are always excellent.
Am I saying dsb is for everyone, nope. Am I saying it should be discounted just because its old school, nope. As far as stuck in my ways suppose I am, like anyone else and I always have been slow to jump on fads. But im not closed to something new that has been conclusively shown to be better. But considering the type of work I do I work from the null hypothesis, and so far bb hasnt been able to disprove it, so I move on and will revist the issue when something is conclusive.
nm reef
Active Member
"And I still have a hard time believing that 4'' of sand is somehow going to sustain a tank."
No claim has been made that any depth of sand will "sustain" a tank...no more so than a absence of sand will "sustain" a tank.
"Tell me what it is that your DSB is doing that you could not accomplish without it."
I believe that a properly established and maintained DSB can have de-nitrification properties...and I tend to believe that it does. In addition I am able to keep and sustain a broad array of micro infauna within my sand bed that may be more difficult to keep without a DSB. Plus the presence of a DSB allows some creatures a more natural habitat to live in...in my case a pistol shrimp that has a couple of burrows under my LR foundation.
"The "look" of all the DSB tanks I've seen is a ton of algae growth between the sand and glass, algae on the glass, overflows, rocks, and everywhere else."
Well you may not have been visiting the right displays...stop on by....and if my DSB is as unsightly and problematic as you seem to insist then I'll convince you to help me remove it...but the fact of the matter is the things you mention above aren't there....and my corals seem to be in good condition.
In addition to everything else my water chemistry has been stable...my clams seem to prefer a sand bed....and bottom line is I like the look of a sand bed vs any other type of bottom surface that I've seen...for me its just that simple.
No claim has been made that any depth of sand will "sustain" a tank...no more so than a absence of sand will "sustain" a tank.
"Tell me what it is that your DSB is doing that you could not accomplish without it."
I believe that a properly established and maintained DSB can have de-nitrification properties...and I tend to believe that it does. In addition I am able to keep and sustain a broad array of micro infauna within my sand bed that may be more difficult to keep without a DSB. Plus the presence of a DSB allows some creatures a more natural habitat to live in...in my case a pistol shrimp that has a couple of burrows under my LR foundation.
"The "look" of all the DSB tanks I've seen is a ton of algae growth between the sand and glass, algae on the glass, overflows, rocks, and everywhere else."
Well you may not have been visiting the right displays...stop on by....and if my DSB is as unsightly and problematic as you seem to insist then I'll convince you to help me remove it...but the fact of the matter is the things you mention above aren't there....and my corals seem to be in good condition.
In addition to everything else my water chemistry has been stable...my clams seem to prefer a sand bed....and bottom line is I like the look of a sand bed vs any other type of bottom surface that I've seen...for me its just that simple.
tony detroit
Active Member
Do you have no worries of it ever faililng?
msd2
Active Member
I personally worry more about mechanical failure than the dsb. It has given me no grief in the past for years so it doesnt come up as my primary concern. If i was having nitrate issues at all or an algae problem it could concern me then sure.
Like I stated before, am open to change, do you guys have any journal articles or reference books verifying what your saying that bb is superior?
I am also curious on how long of a time frame you guys are talking for dsb failure. The longest time frame I have had a dsb would be 6 years undisturbed, only problem at that point was I wanted a new tank which is quickly approaching a year in age. Obviously we could go back and forth like this forever. Personally I think it comes more down to the reefer, the better your understanding of biosystems and chemistry the greater your chance of success.
Like I stated before, am open to change, do you guys have any journal articles or reference books verifying what your saying that bb is superior?
I am also curious on how long of a time frame you guys are talking for dsb failure. The longest time frame I have had a dsb would be 6 years undisturbed, only problem at that point was I wanted a new tank which is quickly approaching a year in age. Obviously we could go back and forth like this forever. Personally I think it comes more down to the reefer, the better your understanding of biosystems and chemistry the greater your chance of success.
nm reef
Active Member
Sure I have concerns...I have read plenty of info indicating that over time there are potentials for problems...but in most of the discussion I've seen there has been very little to firmly establish that "all DSB's are destined to fail and cause tank crashs"...In the past year there have been volumes written in discussions on-line about the concerns with DSB's that near 5 years in use...but honestly....very few documented examples where the use of a properly established/maintained DSB was the cause......on the other hand I recently looked at pics of a European reef that is truely amazing...and I believe the DSB in that system was reported to have been established nearly 10 years ago....and judging from the pics I saw it still looks to be healthy. I also remember a hobbyist here stateside having algae related problems with a relatively newly established bare bottom system......go figure....is that possible....probelms establishing a bare bottom display?????
Its like this...I also worry about the seals on my display failing and the resulting problems associated with that could be major. I have concerns about lots of things associated with maintaining my reef. Any of a number of factors could result in the total loss of my reef...but I don't consider myself foolish enough to stand back and allow a situation to develop to the point where I trash everything I've attempted to establish. If my tank develops a leak I'll take steps to damage control....same as I will IF the danger of maintaining a reef with a DSB causes problems. IF my system degrades and IF I can determine its the result of having a DSB( and lordy knows there is info out there that will point the finger at my DSB) then I think I'll be able to alter my course and salvage enough to continue on....but do I think the chance of a fatal crash via DSB pollution or seal leakage is MAJOR? Nope...I don't worry about things that have "potential".....I just drive my truck and trust that the drunken idiot destined to kill sober folks while operating a vehicle in a drunken condition will miss me.....live is a risk and you just manage the potential for danger as best you can. I'm not a extremely experienced reefkeeper...actually I consider myself a rookie compared to hobbyists I admire and trust...but I believe I'll be able to respond to any potential toxic situation quickly enough to safe my humble lil reef. Sort of like I trust my reflexs enough to trust I'll avoid a idiot drunk behind the wheel of a vehicle.
There have been instances where systems fail and the reason has been determined to be a DSB....but there are also other systems with DSB's that have been established for 5+ years without failures.....The DSB in my refugium...which once was my display has been established for about 5 years now...no major problems that I've been able to determine. I trust it hasn't started a process that will result in the loss of my reef...but at the same time I'm confident enough that if problems happen I'll be able to respond to them and prevent a total loss.
...and ya know what.....I'll manage to maintain my reef in times of trouble the same as you bare bottom folks manage thru your difficult times.Seems to me I've also seen and heard of a few minor difficulties hobbyists have experienced even establishing a bare bottom system.....recent affairs too....
There are pros and cons to every attempt to replicate a natural environment as complex as the ones we try to manage...but for the life of me I see no reason to attempt to assert that one method/style is "better" or "safer" or "more practicle" than any other. Heck there are hobbyists out there maintaining decent systems with Crushed coral and hang on mechanical filtration.....plenum systems are still used.....many hobbyists report success with mechanical filtration devices and no skimmers.....just because the high tech end of this hobby seems to believe a bare bottom with massive circulation is the newest and latest trend does not by any means determine that ALL the other available methods are less than acceptable.That alone seems rather elitist to me.....fact is there are numerous successful methods used to establish/maintain a marine system....and I don't buy that one is better than another....and in all honesty I seldom see any experienced hobbyist claim for a fact that any one way is the one and only best way!!!!!!!!!
I use a DSB....and I have tried as best I can to establish it and maintain it according to the experiences of others active in this hobby....mine seems to have been effective to this point...and as time goes by I may indeed develop in a different direction...but I swear I hope I never get to the point in my experience that I attempt to vainly state one way is the way and the only way to success!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I once used only 4x65 watts of CSL PC's...and now use a combination of VHO's and MHs...but I'd consider myself a fool if I stated that a combination of VHOs and MHs is the only way to properly light a marine aquarium.
I may be destined to see my reef suffer a total crash and it may be due to the use of a DSB......but each and every hobbyist that spends the time effort and funds that I have runs the same risk no matter what method/style they use.....even bare bottom advocates!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now...I confess...I am not a high tech kind of person and the ins and outs of this hobby...especially the high tech stuff confounds me...but I've been around long enough to know a few things.
One...there are many ways to have success in this hobby
Two...time/experience/knowledge results in adaption to better methods/styles
Three...nothing in this hobby is written in stone and whats in now may be out tomorrow.
Four....with patience...and with a drive to maintain a system...there are numerous ways to be successful
Five....most importantly to me...I've come to believe that what works for me may not work for you...and what works for you may not work for me....and that applies to each person that attempts to have a measure of success in this hobby.
Now...go take some pics of your bare bottom systems and post 'em up.....cause I wanna see 'em and enjoy 'em....and continue to evaluate if the future holds a bare bottom for me...but for now I like the look of the sand bed...I like the diversity of life in the sand bed....and for me at least its been a minor contribution to the minor success I've had to this point.
I can't believe I actually allowed myself to respond in this manner....whewwwwwww...thats a lot of words for a feeble old fool like me.....
:thinking:
Its like this...I also worry about the seals on my display failing and the resulting problems associated with that could be major. I have concerns about lots of things associated with maintaining my reef. Any of a number of factors could result in the total loss of my reef...but I don't consider myself foolish enough to stand back and allow a situation to develop to the point where I trash everything I've attempted to establish. If my tank develops a leak I'll take steps to damage control....same as I will IF the danger of maintaining a reef with a DSB causes problems. IF my system degrades and IF I can determine its the result of having a DSB( and lordy knows there is info out there that will point the finger at my DSB) then I think I'll be able to alter my course and salvage enough to continue on....but do I think the chance of a fatal crash via DSB pollution or seal leakage is MAJOR? Nope...I don't worry about things that have "potential".....I just drive my truck and trust that the drunken idiot destined to kill sober folks while operating a vehicle in a drunken condition will miss me.....live is a risk and you just manage the potential for danger as best you can. I'm not a extremely experienced reefkeeper...actually I consider myself a rookie compared to hobbyists I admire and trust...but I believe I'll be able to respond to any potential toxic situation quickly enough to safe my humble lil reef. Sort of like I trust my reflexs enough to trust I'll avoid a idiot drunk behind the wheel of a vehicle.
There have been instances where systems fail and the reason has been determined to be a DSB....but there are also other systems with DSB's that have been established for 5+ years without failures.....The DSB in my refugium...which once was my display has been established for about 5 years now...no major problems that I've been able to determine. I trust it hasn't started a process that will result in the loss of my reef...but at the same time I'm confident enough that if problems happen I'll be able to respond to them and prevent a total loss.
...and ya know what.....I'll manage to maintain my reef in times of trouble the same as you bare bottom folks manage thru your difficult times.Seems to me I've also seen and heard of a few minor difficulties hobbyists have experienced even establishing a bare bottom system.....recent affairs too....
There are pros and cons to every attempt to replicate a natural environment as complex as the ones we try to manage...but for the life of me I see no reason to attempt to assert that one method/style is "better" or "safer" or "more practicle" than any other. Heck there are hobbyists out there maintaining decent systems with Crushed coral and hang on mechanical filtration.....plenum systems are still used.....many hobbyists report success with mechanical filtration devices and no skimmers.....just because the high tech end of this hobby seems to believe a bare bottom with massive circulation is the newest and latest trend does not by any means determine that ALL the other available methods are less than acceptable.That alone seems rather elitist to me.....fact is there are numerous successful methods used to establish/maintain a marine system....and I don't buy that one is better than another....and in all honesty I seldom see any experienced hobbyist claim for a fact that any one way is the one and only best way!!!!!!!!!
I use a DSB....and I have tried as best I can to establish it and maintain it according to the experiences of others active in this hobby....mine seems to have been effective to this point...and as time goes by I may indeed develop in a different direction...but I swear I hope I never get to the point in my experience that I attempt to vainly state one way is the way and the only way to success!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I once used only 4x65 watts of CSL PC's...and now use a combination of VHO's and MHs...but I'd consider myself a fool if I stated that a combination of VHOs and MHs is the only way to properly light a marine aquarium.
I may be destined to see my reef suffer a total crash and it may be due to the use of a DSB......but each and every hobbyist that spends the time effort and funds that I have runs the same risk no matter what method/style they use.....even bare bottom advocates!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now...I confess...I am not a high tech kind of person and the ins and outs of this hobby...especially the high tech stuff confounds me...but I've been around long enough to know a few things.
One...there are many ways to have success in this hobby
Two...time/experience/knowledge results in adaption to better methods/styles
Three...nothing in this hobby is written in stone and whats in now may be out tomorrow.
Four....with patience...and with a drive to maintain a system...there are numerous ways to be successful
Five....most importantly to me...I've come to believe that what works for me may not work for you...and what works for you may not work for me....and that applies to each person that attempts to have a measure of success in this hobby.
Now...go take some pics of your bare bottom systems and post 'em up.....cause I wanna see 'em and enjoy 'em....and continue to evaluate if the future holds a bare bottom for me...but for now I like the look of the sand bed...I like the diversity of life in the sand bed....and for me at least its been a minor contribution to the minor success I've had to this point.
I can't believe I actually allowed myself to respond in this manner....whewwwwwww...thats a lot of words for a feeble old fool like me.....
golfish
Active Member
Originally posted by msd2
, do you guys have any journal articles or reference books verifying what your saying that bb is superior?
Not a one, just proof DSB's fail.....Lets not confuse a sand bed with a DEEP sand bed. I've seen lots of references to sand beds. Sometimes you guys are talking about two differnt things. Regardless, its proven they fail, I don't see why anybody would argue about it. I'm not saying one is better then the the other, I just KNOW one fails. If I were to setup a small tank or tank I thought might be upgaded soon I'd probably go with a DSB.
golfish
Active Member
Originally posted by NM reef
I can't believe I actually allowed myself to respond in this manner....whewwwwwww...thats a lot of words for a feeble old fool like me.....
If it makes you feel better this is the only part I read. No need for me to read anymore.
I had a hard enough time with a PC, this lap top of my wifes is a real PITA
jamnman
Member
I think as long as you test your levels on DSB tank you will not have a problem.
If you start seeing rises in Nitrates or Phosphates you may want to consider the DSB as part of the problem.
It is very easy to remove a DSB in an emergency situation.
Although mine was not an emergency it only took 2 hours to remove everything and have it all going again.
I still say I like the look of the DSB better but I wanted more current.
Also please do not disturb the sand bed if it is established it can release toxic levels of H2s in the water.
I love the way your tank looks NM Reef hopefully we can trade some frags in the future.
James
If you start seeing rises in Nitrates or Phosphates you may want to consider the DSB as part of the problem.
It is very easy to remove a DSB in an emergency situation.
Although mine was not an emergency it only took 2 hours to remove everything and have it all going again.
I still say I like the look of the DSB better but I wanted more current.
Also please do not disturb the sand bed if it is established it can release toxic levels of H2s in the water.
I love the way your tank looks NM Reef hopefully we can trade some frags in the future.
James
S
shouse
Guest
i'm on these forums a lot and i go through many posts a day.
This, by far was the most worthwhile few sentences i've read all week.
Now...I confess...I am not a high tech kind of person and the ins and outs of this hobby...especially the high tech stuff confounds me...but I've been around long enough to know a few things.
One...there are many ways to have success in this hobby
Two...time/experience/knowledge results in adaption to better methods/styles
Three...nothing in this hobby is written in stone and whats in now may be out tomorrow.
Four....with patience...and with a drive to maintain a system...there are numerous ways to be successful
Five....most importantly to me...I've come to believe that what works for me may not work for you...and what works for you may not work for me....and that applies to each person that attempts to have a measure of success in this hobby.
This, by far was the most worthwhile few sentences i've read all week.
Now...I confess...I am not a high tech kind of person and the ins and outs of this hobby...especially the high tech stuff confounds me...but I've been around long enough to know a few things.
One...there are many ways to have success in this hobby
Two...time/experience/knowledge results in adaption to better methods/styles
Three...nothing in this hobby is written in stone and whats in now may be out tomorrow.
Four....with patience...and with a drive to maintain a system...there are numerous ways to be successful
Five....most importantly to me...I've come to believe that what works for me may not work for you...and what works for you may not work for me....and that applies to each person that attempts to have a measure of success in this hobby.
tony detroit
Active Member
Before my seal let loose I always told myself, no, not me. After that I truly realized that if it can go bad it most likely will. I've seen quite a few long term barebottom tanks, suck as 64IVY. I've yet to see one barebottom tank crash when set up with proper filtration. On the same token I've seen multiple DSB tanks fail with proper filtration. So I thought, heck, why take the risk.
NM, I'm with you on the there's more ways than just one. Heck I was talking with a well experienced friend, we both agree that a undergravel filter is still probably the easiest and most efficient way to run a tank. It may not be capable of colorful, thriving SPS, and may not be the cleanest thing out there, but still it will be a efficient tank.
To each, their own.
NM, I'm with you on the there's more ways than just one. Heck I was talking with a well experienced friend, we both agree that a undergravel filter is still probably the easiest and most efficient way to run a tank. It may not be capable of colorful, thriving SPS, and may not be the cleanest thing out there, but still it will be a efficient tank.
To each, their own.
gregm779
Member
I know my reef is young, 10 months, unfortunately I can't travel to the future and see what will become of it years from now. At the moment it just continues to grow and mature and look better every day. Down here in Florida I have the opportunity to see some really amazing tanks, some DSB and some newer ones that are Bare Bottom. I just cannot help noticing the lack of the clean white look of sand on the bottom of a tank when I see a BB, I admit they do show cleaner water, ORP wise. Then again you can also put no fish in your aquarium, that will lead to cleaner water and no crashing also. It's also the extra work of a BB tank of vaccuuming up all of the detritus manually.
We haven't heard of horrible BB tank crashes yet because this idea is very young also, I don't think my tank could handle my bioload without the sandbed.
We haven't heard of horrible BB tank crashes yet because this idea is very young also, I don't think my tank could handle my bioload without the sandbed.