Coral catshark

[cars&sharks]

Originally Posted by Whitey
http:///forum/post/2501646
Do you rescue sharks in Minnesota?

...your kidding me right?

 

[crashbandicoot]

Ok so back to the OP . Thats the bad thing about LFS and sharks they dont take the time to understand what the differance is , Most times its a flunky willing to make sub par wages by slinging fish . Theres not a lot of enthusiasim in the job being done . Its kinda sad actually . Take a LFS here in a 125 they have 2 look downs 2 cortez rays a blue spotted ray a toad fish and a panther grouper that is about 10" . Thats just flat over stocked IMO. I love the ever so famous "shark egg" or equally amusing is ASSORTED octopus. Great could be a dwarf could be a blue ring they dont know .

 

[gonefishcrazy]

Originally Posted by Crashbandicoot
http:///forum/post/2501823

Ok so back to the OP . Thats the bad thing about LFS and sharks they dont take the time to understand what the differance is , Most times its a flunky willing to make sub par wages by slinging fish . Theres not a lot of enthusiasim in the job being done . Its kinda sad actually . Take a LFS here in a 125 they have 2 look downs 2 cortez rays a blue spotted ray a toad fish and a panther grouper that is about 10" . Thats just flat over stocked IMO. I love the ever so famous "shark egg" or equally amusing is ASSORTED octopus. Great could be a dwarf could be a blue ring they dont know .
YEP.Its really sad when you know more about the fish than the person working there.

 

[crashbandicoot]

At one lfs I was given the (persona non grata) for correcting the lady that worked there , Suddenly the price on everything was 2-3 times normal asking price . All because I asked about the SFE and she tried to give me the low down on the zebra eel in the tank next to it . I thought she just misunderstood what I said , So I said in a very polite tone " oh no I ment the SFE" , She says that is a snow flake eel . I said " No thats a zebra eel ,The one in this tank is a Snow flake eel". she came back trying to tell me the little one was a baby and the zebra was an adult . So I flat out corrected her and told her this is a SFE and that is a ZEBRA there are big differances including size ,coloration and personalities .

 

[krj-1168]

Ok - can a shark survive in a tank that is the Minimum size that Scott Michael recommends - Sure. But is it ethical to keep a shark in a tank that size - NO WAY. In fact it's actually pretty cruel.
A good comparision would be - Keeping a German Shepherd in a 6' x 6' dog pen, or a Person in a 8' x 8' room for their entire lives.
Ultimately - keep a shark in a tank that too small is just like keep a dog in a pen that too small or a person locked up in room that too. The ultimate result is you will end up with a weaker animal that will likely die much sooner.
I've never heard of anyone that kept a blacktip reef in 6,000 gallon tank for more than 4 years. I've also never heard of anyone that kept a Brown banded Bamboo in a 300 gallon aquarium for more than 5 years.
So if you want to give your shark the best quality of life - I suggest you go larger --- much larger.
BTW - even Scott Michael states his figures are absolute bare minimums - and the Larger tanks are not only suggested - but highly recommended.

 

[cars&sharks]

I've never heard of anyone that kept a blacktip reef in 6,000 gallon tank for more than 4 years. I've also never heard of anyone that kept a Brown banded Bamboo in a 300 gallon aquarium for more than 5 years.
hmm...i know a person that keeps a blacktip and and a whitetip reef shark in a 2600 gal tank, its going on about 5 years now. i also know somebody with a bamboo shark that hes had for 7 years thats in a 220 gal. i know a lot of people that have had bamboo sharks for over 3 years in 180-220 gallon tanks, perfectly healthy.
Jake

 

[gonefishcrazy]

IMO, Once a person don't over do it, takes care of their tank, love their fish then they would do whats best their fish. We all love this hobby. When I read alot of these posts it almost make me think its wrong to have any fish in any aquarium because no matter what size tank you have its not the ocean. And to me is never big enough. The bigger tank, the more fish people put in. Ive never seen somebody have a 200-600 gallon tank with one or two fish. There's plenty of fish in good size tanks that dies for reason beyond the size of the tank .Mmmmmmmmm.

 

[cars&sharks]

Originally Posted by gonefishcrazy
http:///forum/post/2503531
IMO, Once a person don't over do it, takes care of their tank, love their fish then they would do whats best their fish. We all love this hobby. When I read alot of these posts it almost make me think its wrong to have any fish in any aquarium because no matter what size tank you have its not the ocean. And to me is never big enough. The bigger tank, the more fish people put in. Ive never seen somebody have a 200-600 gallon tank with one or two fish. There's plenty of fish in good size tanks that dies for reason beyond the size of the tank .Mmmmmmmmm.
it doesn't get anymore true than that.

 

[ecooper]

Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2500323
Aaaah... the classic tank size stalemate:
Nobody seems to realize that these sides are arguing over different issues. Can a coral cat survive in a 125 gallon (or even a 150)? The answer is that if all other conditions are ideal then the shark will probably survive. Does this make it right?
This seems to be the crux of the situation.
And then there's also a difference between surviving and thriving...

 

[brenden]

Jake, do you realize how unethical it is to keep a Blacktip Reef yet alone a Whitetip Reef as well? 2,600 gallons would work for maybe a 12 - 18 months at best. Both those specimens require extensive amounts of room, system wise you are looking at 20,000 gallons. A Brown Banded Bamboo in a 220 gallon sure, it can be done but it sure isn't ethical. And please don't try and go on another rant about how they are healthy and thriving, just becasue they swim and eat doesn't mean they are healthy and happy.

 

[crashbandicoot]

 

[cars&sharks]

Originally Posted by Brenden
http:///forum/post/2504447
Jake, do you realize how unethical it is to keep a Blacktip Reef yet alone a Whitetip Reef as well? 2,600 gallons would work for maybe a 12 - 18 months at best. Both those specimens require extensive amounts of room, system wise you are looking at 20,000 gallons. A Brown Banded Bamboo in a 220 gallon sure, it can be done but it sure isn't ethical. And please don't try and go on another rant about how they are healthy and thriving, just becasue they swim and eat doesn't mean they are healthy and happy.

me a river.

 

[krj-1168]

Here's your problem - Jake .
Your defending Scott Michael's estimates. When really there's no defense to his figures.
Think about the fact that in the wild - even bamboos, Eppies, coral cats and horn sharks have home ranges of at least 10,000 sq.ft. And you expect to keep these sharks in a space of only 9- 20 sq. ft.
It's even worse with active sharks such as Blacktip reefs & requiems which have home ranges of at least a couple of sq. miles (in some cases - hundreds of sq. miles). And you expect one of these sharks to live it's entire life in a space only 200 sq.ft.
Dude - that's incredible CRUEL & INHUMANE.
I bet you would also think it's ok to keep a 12" Koi in a 55 gallon tank, or maybe a Zebra Moray in a 55 gallon tank.
The fact is sharks & Rays need perfect water conditions to be healthy & live a long life. This means an excellent filtration system. But also it means they need a large tank. After all it's easier to keep a larger than at 0 ppm Nitrates/Nitrites/& Ammonia than it is a smaller tank - especially if you have very messy predatory fish - which sharks & rays are.

 

[brenden]

Jake - I assume you know everything though right. I mean you have kept 30+ odd Sharks in your life time and even got most of them to eat frozen food! You have also been studying them for 6 years so you must be an expert in the field now. We are lucky to have members of your intelligence able to post on these boards and help us out.
Thanks Jake!

 

[whitey]

Originally Posted by Brenden
http:///forum/post/2505201
Jake - I assume you know everything though right. I mean you have kept 30+ odd Sharks in your life time and even got most of them to eat frozen food! You have also been studying them for 6 years so you must be an expert in the field now. We are lucky to have members of your intelligence able to post on these boards and help us out.
Thanks Jake!

He's 19 and has kept every species that exists. Not just fish, but every species of animal. He knows the trick to keep animals alive in cramped environments. Though he lives in MN, he has done years of research on every type of shark.
I think that the only thing left to be said here are a whole bunch of these:

Jake will now be known as the Chuck Norris of the SWF board.
Take your

me a river stuff elsewhere Jake. There are people on this board that care about the well being of these animals. You are obviously too full of yourself to realize that you actually have no clue.

 

[1journeyman]

Let's keep the drama to a minimum all. I don't care what age he is, he could very well be an expert (though in this thread I tend to disagree with him). One of our Mods is young; Yet he knows more about reef keeping than I will if I study exclusively for the next 5 years... Age certainly does not dictate talent, knowledge or skill in keeping a tank.
The great point, I believe Crimzy brought up, is surviving versus thriving.
Consider "puppy mills"; you know, those breeders that crank out puppies to sell to chain pet stores. The dogs are breeding, eating, etc. Still, no one would say those conditions are allowing the dogs to thrive.
As Ophiura pointed out, a degree in Marine Bio doesn't carry a lot of weight when it comes to keeping a healthy sw aquarium. While Ophiura has far more training, (and, btw, she's too humble to admit it, but get her talking some time about her resume. Better yet, get her talking some time about the "experts" in our hobby that have her number on speed dial.

). I majored in Biology, with an emphasis in MB. It's a different world. I've learned more about reef keeping from diving the reefs than I ever would have learned in a MB class.
Where a biology degree, diving, snorkeling, etc. does come into assisting in the hobby is when it allows you to identify key features and behaviors of a species. Form=function in the animal kingdom. When you can look at a fish and begin to identify key details and how those features assist the animal in living in the wild you can carry it over to the hobby.
In this particular case, we have a small, thin predator. Things to look at:
What type of prey does it naturally feed on? It's body shape indicates it probably hunts in between the rocks on the reef. Does it hunt fish at night or does it feed more on inverts. That should dictate what it is primarily fed. It wouldn't suprise me at all if it's natural diet consists more on inverts than fish.
In the wild, what kind of area does it hunt for food? How far can one swim a day? Do they live on the same patch of reef? All of these things come into play.
Gonefishcrazy, you are absolutely correct; We are never going to be able to mimic the ocean. We just need to learn to choose the best species for the tanks we can keep. I'm not saying you haven't, btw, as I know next to nothing about this particular shark. I do tend to agree with Ophiura, however; If a fish is longer than the tank is wide it probably has outgrown the tank.
Off topic, FWIW, I've had the privilege of diving the GBR and getting close to Whitetip Reef Sharks. No way should one of those be kept in a tank based solely on the behavior I witnessed. They are definitely too active.

 

[cars&sharks]

Originally Posted by krj-1168
http:///forum/post/2505038
Think about the fact that in the wild - even bamboos, Eppies, coral cats and horn sharks have home ranges of at least 10,000 sq.ft. And you expect to keep these sharks in a space of only 9- 20 sq. ft.
It's even worse with active sharks such as Blacktip reefs & requiems which have home ranges of at least a couple of sq. miles (in some cases - hundreds of sq. miles). And you expect one of these sharks to live it's entire life in a space only 200 sq.ft.
I bet you would also think it's ok to keep a 12" Koi in a 55 gallon tank, or maybe a Zebra Moray in a 55 gallon tank.
The fact is sharks & Rays need perfect water conditions to be healthy & live a long life. This means an excellent filtration system. But also it means they need a large tank. After all it's easier to keep a larger than at 0 ppm Nitrates/Nitrites/& Ammonia than it is a smaller tank - especially if you have very messy predatory fish - which sharks & rays are.
listen buddy...im really sick of defending myself and what writters, biologist recommend, {edited} about sw fish and their "humane" tank size is a complete waste of time to me becuase honestly what you say, or anybody else on this forum says, i will still give recommendations of min. tank sizes and every bit of knowledge that i know to sw hobbyist.
but, i will say this. no matter what fish it is, any size tank rather it be 20g 0r 10,000 gallons, your still takeing it out of the ocean wich covers most of the earth so, if you want, you can call that cruel and inhumane also.
all of you that think its inhumane about keeping a 3ft non-active shark in a 300gal tank should really stop complaining...there is bigger "fish" to fry out there. last week i was talking to some idiot that works at ***** (i go there to buy salt) he said he used to have a bamboo shark. he told me the shark died one weekend when he was away due to the shark jumping out of the tank. i asked him how large he was, he made a gester with his hands that looked about 2ft in length. i than asked him how large of tank he was in....he told me a 40gal. I snapped than complained to his manager saying he knows nothing about sw fish and maybe he should be transfered to a diff. dept. she said she will have a talk with him (i highly doubt this "talk" ever happened)
The point im trying to make is, stop complaining about stupid {edited}, it could be a lot worse.
and KRJ, i dont know if you took a chance to look at my SN or read my other posts...your preaching to the wrong person when it comes to water filtration and sharks...i can guarantee you i know a lot more of what a shark needs to survive than you.
Jake

 

[brenden]

Originally Posted by cars&sharks
http:///forum/post/2510581
i can guarantee you i know a lot more of what a shark needs to survive than you.
Jake
Thats a bold statment, however I will let Ken defend himself on this one.
Jake, no need to get worked up. I agree that some of these Sharks could have it alot worse but that doesn't mean we shouldn't give them something alot better. The problem with talking about Sharks & Rays on forums is there are alot of dedicated and passionate hobbyists as in any "section" of the hobby that want only the best for any specimen living in the home aquaria. Its hard to express emotion over internet so someone may come across as rude when really they do not have that intent at all. But no need to keep this on going so I am out.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2508707
Let's keep the drama to a minimum all. ....

Originally Posted by cars&sharks
http:///forum/post/2510581
listen buddy...im really sick of defending myself and what writters, biologist recommend, bit**** about sw fish and their "humane" tank size is a complete waste of time to me becuase honestly what you say, or anybody else on this forum says, i will still give recommendations of min. tank sizes and every bit of knowledge that i know to sw hobbyist. ...
Post #55, please meet post #54....
Cars&sharks, this is a discussion forum. It is here for people to discuss the hobby.
You have a right to post everything you have ever learned about sharks here. Of course, other members have equal right to post disagreeing with you. That's part of the "discussion"; Otherwise we could just have one poster assigned to a forum and make it a Q&A format.
After you post your opinion, step away. Realize that you have done your part for the community and you are through. Also realize not everyone in the hobby is going to accept your opinion. Further realize they have an opportunity to post their opinions.
Using **** to mask words to beat the profanity filter is not allowed. Please refrain from that in the future.

 

[jon321]

A local LFS had a 4ft black tip in a 500g tank for upwards of 10 years. Was it alive? yes. But it looked like crap to anyone that knew anything about elasmobranchs. Its survival was nothing more than a testament to these animals amazing adaptability, but that does not mean they should be made to endure these inhumane conditions.
Jon