Cycling a fot high trate an trites

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gwhunter

Guest
I've got a 90g fot that is newly setup. The tank is about 7wks old. The stock is a yellow tank,koran angel,naso tang,hippo tang. The last three are small and hippo tang is quarter size. The NH3 is zero the nitrites are off the chart but the nitrates are also at about 25. From all I've read and past experience this seems strange. The tank seemed to cycle text book with the nh3 going up then the trites went up the nh3 down. I was expecting the trates to go down then the trites to come up. I'm currently running cumpramin for the hippo tank showing signs of ich. Before the copper I was planning on putting in some lr but not sure I'll be able to copper out. I'm running an aquaclear 110 and a magnum hot. Now I have the boi wheel add on for the magnum hot but currently do not. Should I add this? I would like to get this tank cycled complete soon. I don't have a skimmer but I'm getting one soon. I'd also like to get rid of the AQ filter and set up a sump. I also have a 210g that I'll be transitioning too in the next year or so. So what advice do you guys/gals have for me?
Matt%%
 
gypsana

gypsana

Active Member
So am I understanding you right, you have no live rock? How did you cycle your tank and did you monitor the ammonia levels? Copper should never be added to a DT. One more issue is that those tangs are going to create a large bio load on your tank and you may have a hard time maintaining a good balance. Also take a sample of your water to a LFS to double check the nitrite level.
 
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gwhunter

Guest
Thanks for the reply. The tank was cycled with a few damsels and a falco hawk. The Nh3 did rise and fall as it should have. I have no lr in the tank. The tangs are all small about 2". The qt was not an option for me. I understand it's role and importance but I don't have the availible space. I did a 30% water change today and I also added the biowheel to the hot magnum. The nitrite test kit is brand new,since I wanted to make sure the reading was correct. (I had a kit that was about a year old)
The nitaites were down before the water change to about 30. After the change they were about 20. But still no change on the nitrates.
Matt
 
gypsana

gypsana

Active Member
Do you have a sand bed? Even if you do the first things to do is start performing water changes to get you salinity down so you can start hypo (for the ich) and help lessen the nitrite levels and get some Amquel Plus. The combination of the nitrite levels and ich will kill your fish. Be careful not to over feed either because you are going to cause more issues. Also post another tread in the New Hobbyist section and ask for help there as well. I feel that you overstocked on a new tank and the lack of biological filtration may be the problem, but that is just my theory. I hope others can chime in to help.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Hey gypsy lady, how are you feeling?
GWhunter she gave you some good advice. You have stocked the tank too soon with too large of a bioload and for the most part no biofilter.
Copper is probably going to be a problem down the road here as it is in everything in the system at this point.
I sould think the best bet here is to continue to do a lot of water changes, use the Amquel or other like Prime to try to lokc up the ammonia and tirtes while you do the water changes.
then start reading here the end of post 6. https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/127007/faqs-fish-diseases-treatments-quarantine-health-info
Get some large pcs. of PVC to put into the tank for places for the fish to go and hide - rest.
Syphon the bottom of the tank daily to get anything like fish waste and food waste out so that they cannot rot and add ammonia to the tank.
Keep your filtration clean and free of debris.
I think what you now have is a 90 gallon hospital tank but let's get some other opinions here. IMO your first task is to get the ammonian and nitrites down and keep them down, then to cure the fish. Add nothing else to this tank.
Good luck with this and keep posting here to let us see how it is going.
 
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gwhunter

Guest
You guys are misunderstanding the issue. The nh3 is at 0 the nitrates are at 20 the nitrites are the issue. I will not be using the tank as a qt. This is a classic oak setup in my living room. I'm not new to fish keeping and have had salt in the past. I was planning on running a fish only without lr tank but with all the biological filtration the lr provides I decided it would make life for the fish and me easier. I was well aware of the treatments for ich. I choose copper over hypo. I understand that alot of people are having much success with the lr sump for filtration and hypo for treatment and I respect that. I'm by no means an expert. My goal is to both cure the ich an lower the nitrites. I'm pretty confident that the water parameters helped the onset if the ich by stressing the fish. I've searched the post here and elsewhere and it seems high nitrites are not too uncommon. It seems frequent water changes( as suggested by you guys/gals) and allowing the bacteria to catchup to the bio load is the proper avenue. I'm using crushed coral as my substrate. I was thinking adding some liquid bacteria to help. Do I really need the amqel if the NH3 isn't an issue?
 
gypsana

gypsana

Active Member
No I did not misunderstand your issue at all. Nitrites build up from lack of biological filtration. Nitrates will not kill fish but nitrites will If you do not have live rock then performing hypo in your tank is not an issue of concern unless you have inverts which I forgot to ask about. So you already did a copper treatment? If so do not waste your money on actual live rock. I would just get base rock and let go at that. The copper will kill anything that comes in on new live rock so IMO it would be a waste of money.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Originally Posted by gypsana
http:///forum/post/3105951
No I did not misunderstand your issue at all. Nitrites build up from lack of biological filtration. Nitrates will not kill fish but nitrites will If you do not have live rock then performing hypo in your tank is not an issue of concern unless you have inverts which I forgot to ask about. So you already did a copper treatment? If so do not waste your money on actual live rock. I would just get base rock and let go at that. The copper will kill anything that comes in on new live rock so IMO it would be a waste of money.
Agree here. Amquel and Prime will lock up the nitrites also, and as gypsy said they are of concern to the health of the fish. Cophttps://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3105951
Saltwaterfish.com Message Boards - Reply to Topicper already started should be continued until the fish are cured and the tank is rid of it. Then the dead base rock like perhaps some Tufa will perhaps help some in the future. When you are done with the treatment I would also get some Poly Filter pad. It is said to bind copper and allow it's removal, don't know if it will rid the tank completely but may help.
http://a1272.g.akamai.net/7/1272/1121/20051228153650/www.**************.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/p_157346_17555D.jpg
* Multipurpose chemical filter media helps improve water quality and clarity
* Highly adsorbent pads remove ammonia, heavy metals, phosphate, and more
* Cut to any size or shape to fit any fresh or saltwater aquarium filter
Highly adsorbent chemical filter media pads quickly and efficiently remove impurities, medications, and phosphate from aquarium water. Use in conventional power filters, undergravel filters, and the chemical filtration compartment of canister filters. Simply cut to any size or shape to custom fit any aquarium filter. Rapidly improves water clarity and actively removes harmful organic and various inorganic waste buildup for several months. Changes color to indicate the pollutants being removed and when Poly Filter is exhausted. Will not leach pollutants upon saturation. (See the Test Kit section for phosphate and copper test kits to help monitor levels.) Industrial grade 12" x 12" Poly Filter pad is stronger and more adsorbent. Used by researchers, hospitals, etc. A great size for wet/dry filters or larger canister filters where the smaller pad is just not enough. For freshwater and marine aquariums.
Color Pollutants Being Removed
Blue Copper
Red Iron
Green Free Copper ions
Brown Normal organic load
Black Heavy organic load
Poly Filter Removes:
* Harmful Organics
* Toxic Ammonia and Nitrite
* Heavy Metals
* All Forms of Phosphate
* Medications after Treatment
 
G

gwhunter

Guest
Originally Posted by gypsana
http:///forum/post/3105951
No I did not misunderstand your issue at all. Nitrites build up from lack of biological filtration. Nitrates will not kill fish but nitrites will If you do not have live rock then performing hypo in your tank is not an issue of concern unless you have inverts which I forgot to ask about. So you already did a copper treatment? If so do not waste your money on actual live rock. I would just get base rock and let go at that. The copper will kill anything that comes in on new live rock so IMO it would be a waste of money.

My issue is with nitrites, the nitrates are on there way down. I don't have any inverts. I'm not concerned about the hypo because of inverts. I don't want the hassle of hypo. That's why I choose copper, I'm going to add a wet dry without bio balls. I'm thinking that I should also add some macro algea to the sump to use the trates. Between this and water changer I should be able to control the trates right? I know copper bonds itself to things in the tank but doesn't cuprisorb remove it? I was hoping to add rock to the tank after the ich. Is this no longer an option?
Matt
 
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gwhunter

Guest
So, I should try the poly filter and the amqel or prime. And continue with with water changes.
Matt
 
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gwhunter

Guest
The nitrites are still high so I decided to add the prime to detox it. I hope that makes a difference. The fish are acting normal and still feeding. I'm feeding them sparingly and have the bio wheel running. I'm hoping to see some improvement in the next week or so.
Matt
 
tank a holic

tank a holic

Active Member
if you dont have enough surface area to grow the bacteria on you will easily overstock your tank
better get some base rock to get bacteria growing, I'd also recommend biozome to boost the growth
liverock would have been great but like already said its too late since you jumped the gun with copper, should never add that to a dt

also you keep saying you're waiting on trates to go down, I assume you mean tritItes as they will eventually go down trAtes won't without a wc or algae
sounds to me like you added way to much way too quick
 
G

gwhunter

Guest
Originally Posted by tank a holic
http:///forum/post/3106985
if you dont have enough surface area to grow the bacteria on you will easily overstock your tank
better get some base rock to get bacteria growing, I'd also recommend biozome to boost the growth
liverock would have been great but like already said its too late since you jumped the gun with copper, should never add that to a dt %%
also you keep saying you're waiting on trates to go down, I assume you mean tritItes as they will eventually go down trAtes won't without a wc or algae
sounds to me like you added way to much way too quick
Your 100% correct I went a bit too fast. I tend to be a bit impulsive. This was a supposed to be a slow build and stock but I went a bit too fast. I'm thinking the bio wheel is going to help with the bacteria. After the ich is passed I'm going to try and remove the copper and I will set up a qt. I'll most likly setup a 55g under my 210 for now. I've also ordered a coral life skimmer and I'm still shopping for a wet dry. Now if I'm able to remove the copper and setup a sump with some rubble rock should I still add a algea and live sand in the other chamber? Or is it one or the other. I'd like to be able to stock a fair amount of fish. I do understand that the nitrites will come down with a better benificial bacteria bed. And the nitrates can be lowered with wc and algea to feed on it. The nitrates are actually down under 20 now with 0 ammonia. The ntrites are still really high. I added prime yesterday which is supposed to detoxify the nitrites but what does that mean exactly? The fish are feeding and acting normal.
Matt
 
G

gwhunter

Guest
Well, the first casualty due to my hast was found this am. I added more prime last night since the instructions say it can be used for emergency treatment. Obviously the prime didn't help this little guy. The params are the same and the water is cloudy. I just bought a berliner wet dry and still need to get the overflow and return pump. Any suggestions on what to do at this point? I'm thinking at this point I should just do nothing but small water changes and feed sparingly?
Matt
 
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