D.I.Y. grounding probe
- Thread starter drtito
- Start date
fishfreak1242
Active Member
I don't really see the point of DIYing something thats only like $10 bucks. But thats just my opinion.
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by fishfreak1242
http:///forum/post/2925044
I don't really see the point of DIYing something thats only like $10 bucks. But thats just my opinion.
Agreed.
http:///forum/post/2925044
I don't really see the point of DIYing something thats only like $10 bucks. But thats just my opinion.
Agreed.
markus0909
Member
I have been researching this. There is one side that says to send the volts through a current to a rod and out to the ground.
The other side says eliminate as much volts as you can by eliminating faulty equipt sending out volts and just deal with the little that is left in the tank.
By putting in a grounding probe you create "current" through the tank from every piece of elec. equipt. in the tank to the rod, which makes it pass through swimming fish and other live aquaria in it's path.
Any input on this debate???
The other side says eliminate as much volts as you can by eliminating faulty equipt sending out volts and just deal with the little that is left in the tank.
By putting in a grounding probe you create "current" through the tank from every piece of elec. equipt. in the tank to the rod, which makes it pass through swimming fish and other live aquaria in it's path.
Any input on this debate???
scsinet
Active Member
Okay well I'll go ahead and state my case quite clearly from the get go.
Stray voltage is hogwash (at least most of the time). It's one of those catch-all things that hobbyists use to dilude themselves. "It couldn't be my lack of knowledge or expertise that killed that tang I kept in a 20gal, it was STRAY VOLTAGE! Whew! I thought it was something I did!"
Many folks would have you believe that stray voltage consists of little gremlins that swim around looking for fish to bite. Whatever. What's worse, advice is often given to use a multimeter in various ways to test for the presence of it. Most hobbyists doing so are alarmed to find that the meter reads a significant voltage.
There is something else though, what I'll dub "fault voltage." This is a different story, this is what happens when the watertight seal on a piece of equipment fails and water is brought into contact with a live component inside. Or, it could be when salt creep forms a conductive path from something such as a light socket, a plug, etc. A fault is a far more dangerous condition.
The problem is that what is most often dubbed stray voltage, is nothing more than eddy currents. Eddy currents are currents induced in any conductor (such as saltwater) when placed in the presence of an alternating magnetic field (such as a powerhead or pump motor, lighting ballast, just about anything). Eddy currents are not hazardous because there is no current (amperage) to them. Meters can read eddy currents, because meters have a high input impedence. Put simply, meters can detect voltages whether or not there is enough current present to cause a problem.
So as far as a grounding probe is concerned, they will probably zero out eddy currents. This means they will do the job they are billed to do, however the eddy currents probably will be no problem. However, as you said, ground probes can make the problem much worse if a fault condition exists. In this case, a current will simply flow through the water, harming livestock and causing a shock if you put your hand in the water.
Okay, so how do you know if you have a fault condition? There are two simple ways the average hobbyist knows if he has a fault condition. If you are getting shocked from the water, you have a fault condition. The other way is to use a device that will trip based on CURRENT not VOLTAGE. I.E. a GFI. When using a grounding probe AND a GFI, a fault condition will cause an immediate trip. This is why I believe heavily in using grounding probes ONLY when you have a GFI in place. Without one, a grounding probe can cause a more dangerous condition than without.
So my take, is use a grounding probe and a GFI. These two devices together will protect you from faults, and if you are worried about the stray voltage myth, the grounding probe will help you feel better about it.
Stray voltage is hogwash (at least most of the time). It's one of those catch-all things that hobbyists use to dilude themselves. "It couldn't be my lack of knowledge or expertise that killed that tang I kept in a 20gal, it was STRAY VOLTAGE! Whew! I thought it was something I did!"
Many folks would have you believe that stray voltage consists of little gremlins that swim around looking for fish to bite. Whatever. What's worse, advice is often given to use a multimeter in various ways to test for the presence of it. Most hobbyists doing so are alarmed to find that the meter reads a significant voltage.
There is something else though, what I'll dub "fault voltage." This is a different story, this is what happens when the watertight seal on a piece of equipment fails and water is brought into contact with a live component inside. Or, it could be when salt creep forms a conductive path from something such as a light socket, a plug, etc. A fault is a far more dangerous condition.
The problem is that what is most often dubbed stray voltage, is nothing more than eddy currents. Eddy currents are currents induced in any conductor (such as saltwater) when placed in the presence of an alternating magnetic field (such as a powerhead or pump motor, lighting ballast, just about anything). Eddy currents are not hazardous because there is no current (amperage) to them. Meters can read eddy currents, because meters have a high input impedence. Put simply, meters can detect voltages whether or not there is enough current present to cause a problem.
So as far as a grounding probe is concerned, they will probably zero out eddy currents. This means they will do the job they are billed to do, however the eddy currents probably will be no problem. However, as you said, ground probes can make the problem much worse if a fault condition exists. In this case, a current will simply flow through the water, harming livestock and causing a shock if you put your hand in the water.
Okay, so how do you know if you have a fault condition? There are two simple ways the average hobbyist knows if he has a fault condition. If you are getting shocked from the water, you have a fault condition. The other way is to use a device that will trip based on CURRENT not VOLTAGE. I.E. a GFI. When using a grounding probe AND a GFI, a fault condition will cause an immediate trip. This is why I believe heavily in using grounding probes ONLY when you have a GFI in place. Without one, a grounding probe can cause a more dangerous condition than without.
So my take, is use a grounding probe and a GFI. These two devices together will protect you from faults, and if you are worried about the stray voltage myth, the grounding probe will help you feel better about it.
matt boyer
Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/2928409
Okay well I'll go ahead and state my case quite clearly from the get go.
Stray voltage is hogwash (at least most of the time). It's one of those catch-all things that hobbyists use to dilude themselves. "It couldn't be my lack of knowledge or expertise that killed that tang I kept in a 20gal, it was STRAY VOLTAGE! Whew! I thought it was something I did!"
Many folks would have you believe that stray voltage consists of little gremlins that swim around looking for fish to bite. Whatever. What's worse, advice is often given to use a multimeter in various ways to test for the presence of it. Most hobbyists doing so are alarmed to find that the meter reads a significant voltage.
There is something else though, what I'll dub "fault voltage." This is a different story, this is what happens when the watertight seal on a piece of equipment fails and water is brought into contact with a live component inside. Or, it could be when salt creep forms a conductive path from something such as a light socket, a plug, etc. A fault is a far more dangerous condition.
The problem is that what is most often dubbed stray voltage, is nothing more than eddy currents. Eddy currents are currents induced in any conductor (such as saltwater) when placed in the presence of an alternating magnetic field (such as a powerhead or pump motor, lighting ballast, just about anything). Eddy currents are not hazardous because there is no current (amperage) to them. Meters can read eddy currents, because meters have a high input impedence. Put simply, meters can detect voltages whether or not there is enough current present to cause a problem.
So as far as a grounding probe is concerned, they will probably zero out eddy currents. This means they will do the job they are billed to do, however the eddy currents probably will be no problem. However, as you said, ground probes can make the problem much worse if a fault condition exists. In this case, a current will simply flow through the water, harming livestock and causing a shock if you put your hand in the water.
Okay, so how do you know if you have a fault condition? There are two simple ways the average hobbyist knows if he has a fault condition. If you are getting shocked from the water, you have a fault condition. The other way is to use a device that will trip based on CURRENT not VOLTAGE. I.E. a GFI. When using a grounding probe AND a GFI, a fault condition will cause an immediate trip. This is why I believe heavily in using grounding probes ONLY when you have a GFI in place. Without one, a grounding probe can cause a more dangerous condition than without.
So my take, is use a grounding probe and a GFI. These two devices together will protect you from faults, and if you are worried about the stray voltage myth, the grounding probe will help you feel better about it.
this info helped me alot thanks your posts are very helpful
http:///forum/post/2928409
Okay well I'll go ahead and state my case quite clearly from the get go.
Stray voltage is hogwash (at least most of the time). It's one of those catch-all things that hobbyists use to dilude themselves. "It couldn't be my lack of knowledge or expertise that killed that tang I kept in a 20gal, it was STRAY VOLTAGE! Whew! I thought it was something I did!"
Many folks would have you believe that stray voltage consists of little gremlins that swim around looking for fish to bite. Whatever. What's worse, advice is often given to use a multimeter in various ways to test for the presence of it. Most hobbyists doing so are alarmed to find that the meter reads a significant voltage.
There is something else though, what I'll dub "fault voltage." This is a different story, this is what happens when the watertight seal on a piece of equipment fails and water is brought into contact with a live component inside. Or, it could be when salt creep forms a conductive path from something such as a light socket, a plug, etc. A fault is a far more dangerous condition.
The problem is that what is most often dubbed stray voltage, is nothing more than eddy currents. Eddy currents are currents induced in any conductor (such as saltwater) when placed in the presence of an alternating magnetic field (such as a powerhead or pump motor, lighting ballast, just about anything). Eddy currents are not hazardous because there is no current (amperage) to them. Meters can read eddy currents, because meters have a high input impedence. Put simply, meters can detect voltages whether or not there is enough current present to cause a problem.
So as far as a grounding probe is concerned, they will probably zero out eddy currents. This means they will do the job they are billed to do, however the eddy currents probably will be no problem. However, as you said, ground probes can make the problem much worse if a fault condition exists. In this case, a current will simply flow through the water, harming livestock and causing a shock if you put your hand in the water.
Okay, so how do you know if you have a fault condition? There are two simple ways the average hobbyist knows if he has a fault condition. If you are getting shocked from the water, you have a fault condition. The other way is to use a device that will trip based on CURRENT not VOLTAGE. I.E. a GFI. When using a grounding probe AND a GFI, a fault condition will cause an immediate trip. This is why I believe heavily in using grounding probes ONLY when you have a GFI in place. Without one, a grounding probe can cause a more dangerous condition than without.
So my take, is use a grounding probe and a GFI. These two devices together will protect you from faults, and if you are worried about the stray voltage myth, the grounding probe will help you feel better about it.
this info helped me alot thanks your posts are very helpful
bang guy
Moderator
Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/2928409
Okay well I'll go ahead and state my case quite clearly from the get go.
I have a question, I'm glad we have an expert
If I connect my Iwaki 100 to a GFCI protected circuit it will often trip the GFCI upon startup.
As a result I have connected it to a non-GFCI circuit because I'm afraid of it shutting everything down if there's a power outage and it trips during startup.
How much risk am I taking?
http:///forum/post/2928409
Okay well I'll go ahead and state my case quite clearly from the get go.
I have a question, I'm glad we have an expert
If I connect my Iwaki 100 to a GFCI protected circuit it will often trip the GFCI upon startup.
As a result I have connected it to a non-GFCI circuit because I'm afraid of it shutting everything down if there's a power outage and it trips during startup.
How much risk am I taking?
bang guy
Moderator
Originally Posted by saltn00b
http:///forum/post/2929476
i intermittently get a barely noticeable shock. it is so light i have to dip my finger a few times fast to make sure i am getting it through my cuticles. everything is on a dedicated GFCI breaker box. should i add a probe ? (and replace my heater)
I think you should unplug everything and plug them back in one at a time until you find what's giving you the shock. Heaters and powerheads are notorious for leaking current just before they completely fail.
http:///forum/post/2929476
i intermittently get a barely noticeable shock. it is so light i have to dip my finger a few times fast to make sure i am getting it through my cuticles. everything is on a dedicated GFCI breaker box. should i add a probe ? (and replace my heater)
I think you should unplug everything and plug them back in one at a time until you find what's giving you the shock. Heaters and powerheads are notorious for leaking current just before they completely fail.
scsinet
Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2929450
If I connect my Iwaki 100 to a GFCI protected circuit it will often trip the GFCI upon startup.
How much risk am I taking?
You are lucky enough that Iwaki pumps are designed in such a way that the metallic components of the motor are isolated from the water. Everything the water comes in contact with is enclosed in a nylon pump body. This should effectively isolate the fault condition in the motor from the water column.
Are you taking a risk? Absolutely! The GFI is popping for a reason. GFIs sometimes nuiscance trip due to line harmonics caused by electronic ballasts and such, but motors should never trip them unless there is a problem.
What has likely happened is that the insulation in the motor windings is compromised and some "leakage" is occuring to ground. It's not enough to trip a circuit breaker, but enough to trip a GFI. This is of course the whole point of GFIs, to protect against ground faults that are strong enough to harm you but not strong enough to trip a breaker. Someday, that insulation in the motor will likely hard-short to the case and throw the breaker feeding your tank. This is a risk to the tank because there is likely other stuff that will shut down if that happens.
As long as the motor is well grounded by using a quality grounded plug, it's likely not going to shock you, but it is an electrical hazard that should be corrected. Unfortunately, that would mean rewinding the motor which will cost a lot more than a new pump. The other possibility is that the capacitor on the motor is leaking current, which is an inexpensive repair. A motor repair shop can probably tell you. A meter may not, as oftentimes these failures require a high enough voltage to cause them to occur, so a motor shop will use something called a hi-pot tester to check it out.
Originally Posted by saltn00b
http:///forum/post/2929476
i intermittently get a barely noticeable shock. it is so light i have to dip my finger a few times fast to make sure i am getting it through my cuticles. everything is on a dedicated GFCI breaker box. should i add a probe ? (and replace my heater)
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2929497
I think you should unplug everything and plug them back in one at a time until you find what's giving you the shock.
A GFI trips well beyond the threshold of a noticable shock. Sensitive skin areas such as open wounds or scabs, nail cuticles, and soft tissues such as your tongue or lips are especially sensitive to voltages, as we all know from the "9 volt battery test." You've got a fault condition that is not yet gotten bad enough to trip the GFI. I'd address the issue anyway as Bang said.
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2929523
If you have a GFI is there really a need for the ground probe then SCSI?
What I tell people is GFI with no ground probe, safe. Ground probe with no GFI, UNSAFE.
GFIs trip by monitoring the current flowing out the hot wire and back through the neutral. In a normal circuit, these are exactly equal. If they differ by more than about 40ma (or 0.04 amps), it means that current is being diverted someplace to a ground. This can be through a grounding probe or through you, if you touch the water while grounded elsewhere, such as by touching a metal light reflector, standing on a grounded floor, etc. If you don't have a grounding probe, if a piece of equipment allows water to enter, the water will sit, electrically live, until the current finds a path. This usually means you. At this point, the GFI will trip.
Grounding probes DO accomplish what they say they do, dissipating "stray voltage" (read: eddy currents) from the water. If a hobbyist feels they need that, then great. I personally give no merit to the claim that eddy currents cause problems, so I don't believe you need one for that reason. If you do use one, make sure it's with a GFI.
http:///forum/post/2929450
If I connect my Iwaki 100 to a GFCI protected circuit it will often trip the GFCI upon startup.
How much risk am I taking?
You are lucky enough that Iwaki pumps are designed in such a way that the metallic components of the motor are isolated from the water. Everything the water comes in contact with is enclosed in a nylon pump body. This should effectively isolate the fault condition in the motor from the water column.
Are you taking a risk? Absolutely! The GFI is popping for a reason. GFIs sometimes nuiscance trip due to line harmonics caused by electronic ballasts and such, but motors should never trip them unless there is a problem.
What has likely happened is that the insulation in the motor windings is compromised and some "leakage" is occuring to ground. It's not enough to trip a circuit breaker, but enough to trip a GFI. This is of course the whole point of GFIs, to protect against ground faults that are strong enough to harm you but not strong enough to trip a breaker. Someday, that insulation in the motor will likely hard-short to the case and throw the breaker feeding your tank. This is a risk to the tank because there is likely other stuff that will shut down if that happens.
As long as the motor is well grounded by using a quality grounded plug, it's likely not going to shock you, but it is an electrical hazard that should be corrected. Unfortunately, that would mean rewinding the motor which will cost a lot more than a new pump. The other possibility is that the capacitor on the motor is leaking current, which is an inexpensive repair. A motor repair shop can probably tell you. A meter may not, as oftentimes these failures require a high enough voltage to cause them to occur, so a motor shop will use something called a hi-pot tester to check it out.
Originally Posted by saltn00b
http:///forum/post/2929476
i intermittently get a barely noticeable shock. it is so light i have to dip my finger a few times fast to make sure i am getting it through my cuticles. everything is on a dedicated GFCI breaker box. should i add a probe ? (and replace my heater)
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2929497
I think you should unplug everything and plug them back in one at a time until you find what's giving you the shock.
A GFI trips well beyond the threshold of a noticable shock. Sensitive skin areas such as open wounds or scabs, nail cuticles, and soft tissues such as your tongue or lips are especially sensitive to voltages, as we all know from the "9 volt battery test." You've got a fault condition that is not yet gotten bad enough to trip the GFI. I'd address the issue anyway as Bang said.
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2929523
If you have a GFI is there really a need for the ground probe then SCSI?
What I tell people is GFI with no ground probe, safe. Ground probe with no GFI, UNSAFE.
GFIs trip by monitoring the current flowing out the hot wire and back through the neutral. In a normal circuit, these are exactly equal. If they differ by more than about 40ma (or 0.04 amps), it means that current is being diverted someplace to a ground. This can be through a grounding probe or through you, if you touch the water while grounded elsewhere, such as by touching a metal light reflector, standing on a grounded floor, etc. If you don't have a grounding probe, if a piece of equipment allows water to enter, the water will sit, electrically live, until the current finds a path. This usually means you. At this point, the GFI will trip.
Grounding probes DO accomplish what they say they do, dissipating "stray voltage" (read: eddy currents) from the water. If a hobbyist feels they need that, then great. I personally give no merit to the claim that eddy currents cause problems, so I don't believe you need one for that reason. If you do use one, make sure it's with a GFI.