Day 13: Missing a clown...

dutchswan

dutchswan

Member
Everyone has me convinced that I added livestock too soon. As a result, I have been monitoring everyone very closely.
6 Red Leg Hermit Crabs: All still doing very well. They are very active, and still going to town on the rock and sand.
4 Snails: All are on the LR, and are usually in different places every time I look.
2 Clowns: Ummmm, yea one is missing. Completely gone. I cant find him anywhere...I don't see a corpse or skeleton...he is not outside of the tank; It is as though he never existed. I am confused. The other one seems to be acting completely normal. Swimming around, eating just fine, etc.
 
dutchswan

dutchswan

Member
Well, nevermind. I found him, on his side next to a rock. I have put him into a quarantine tank. Gave him his own special water change. I will do the same for the big tank after a bit. The two clowns seem to be handing things quite differently. I don't think the one will make it.
 
dutchswan

dutchswan

Member
Clown #1 is dead. He quite literally breathed his last breath in front of my eyes. Clown #2 looks fine; however, both looked completely find not 6 hours ago.
 
S

shrimpy brains

Guest
You may have heard this already, but the biggest key to success in this hobby is patience!
The reason you have been told to wait is because ammonia and nitrites are toxic to fish. Yes, one may be handling it better than the other, and may even survive the cycle.
Unfortunately, that doesn't mean they aren't both suffering. I'm not trying to be rude, just pointing out the facts, which as a noob you may not have been aware of. (we were all new once)
Anyway, ammonia burns their gills. You can probably keep this to a minimum with daily water changes or by adding Amquel Plus(doesn't eliminate ammonia, but makes it less toxic)
Sorry about the one Clown. I hope he pulls thru. You will def. have to do daily water changes in the QT also, unless that is a cycled tank.
 
dutchswan

dutchswan

Member
Originally Posted by Shrimpy Brains
http:///forum/post/3284435
Unfortunately, that doesn't mean they aren't both suffering.
I agree that I added fish too soon. I hope the 2nd one survives. That said, many in this forum have pointed out the suffering I have caused my clowns. I hate to sound un-empathetic, but while I am sorry to have lost the fish, I can assure you they felt no pain. Fish lack synaptic receptors as well as a sophisticated enough brain to actually feel pain. So while a fish may indeed "struggle" and looks to be in agony, they in fact do not actually feel pain.
I am sure I will get many here to disagree with me. But their disagreement will be base on opinion and "feelings", as opposed to scientific fact. That said, it is my hope that future "live stock" I introduce to a fully cycled tank will flourish. :)
 
posiden

posiden

Active Member
Originally Posted by dutchswan
http:///forum/post/3284457
I agree that I added fish too soon. I hope the 2nd one survives. That said, many in this forum have pointed out the suffering I have caused my clowns. I hate to sound un-empathetic, but while I am sorry to have lost the fish, I can assure you they felt no pain. Fish lack synaptic receptors as well as a sophisticated enough brain to actually feel pain. So while a fish may indeed "struggle" and looks to be in agony, they in fact do not actually feel pain.
I am sure I will get many here to disagree with me. But their disagreement will be base on opinion and "feelings", as opposed to scientific fact. That said, it is my hope that future "live stock" I introduce to a fully cycled tank will flourish. :)
This........is interesting.................
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by dutchswan
http:///forum/post/3284457
I hate to sound un-empathetic, but while I am sorry to have lost the fish, I can assure you they felt no pain. Fish lack synaptic receptors as well as a sophisticated enough brain to actually feel pain. So while a fish may indeed "struggle" and looks to be in agony, they in fact do not actually feel pain.:)
Nothing personal...I'm just curious to know where you found this information. I just read through several articles that would highly dissagree with this.
"The scientific literature is quite clear. Anotomically, physiologically and biologically, the pain system in a fish is virtually the same as in birds and mammals." Dr. Donald Broom @ Cambrige University and animal welfare advisor to the British Government.
"The pain a fish feels when it is hooked is like dentistry without the novocaine, drilling into exposed areas." Dr. Tom Hopkins @ Alabama University professor of Marine Science.
There are dozens more like this along with articles pointing out the fact that fish do have nervous systems and the brains to process and sense pain.
 
meowzer

meowzer

Moderator
Originally Posted by 2Quills
http:///forum/post/3284479
"The pain a fish feels when it is hooked is like dentistry without the novocaine, drilling into exposed areas." Dr. Tom Hopkins @ Alabama University professor of Marine Science.
OMG I may never fish again......
 
dutchswan

dutchswan

Member
I know there are those PhDs who are dissenters. But they are in the minority. 95% of "experts" agree that fish do not feel pain. They simply lack the central nervous system to translate what is being done to them to pain. Hurting animals is a crime, punishable with prison time and steep fines. Yet we boil lobsters alive. Ever wonder why this is? Lobsters, like fish, are not capable of feeling pain. Thus, it is not a crime to go fishing, or to cook lobster. Imagine if we shot deer, took a picture, and then set them back in the wild....you would probably go to jail for that.
 
S

shrimpy brains

Guest
Well......good luck in your future endeavors.........I am sure you need no further advice from me.
 
dutchswan

dutchswan

Member
Originally Posted by Shrimpy Brains
http:///forum/post/3284493
Well......good luck in your future endeavors.........I am sure you need no further advice from me.
Wow. I appreciate the help I have been getting. I have learned a lot, and hope to continue to do so. I don't want to see my fish (or any other animal for that matter) die without purpose. I never imagined stating scientific fact would earn myself a spot on anyone's black list. I am sure every pet you had went to heaven ... unless they were bad fishies, then they are
... but then again they don't feel pain, so even if they were bad, it is just bright where they are
 
dutchswan

dutchswan

Member
Originally Posted by 2Quills
http:///forum/post/3284479
Nothing personal...I'm just curious to know where you found this information. I just read through several articles that would highly dissagree with this.
There are dozens more like this along with articles pointing out the fact that fish do have nervous systems and the brains to process and sense pain.
Dr. Tom Hopkins <<< NOT a neurologist, but a Marine Biologist. Google this guy, you cannot find anything about him. There is more information about me when I google myself.
Dr. Donald Broom <<< NOT a neurologist. PhD in "Animal Behavior".


 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Would never put anyone on my blacklist over a simple difference of opinion. I'm just saying that I was curious about it so I started looking into it tonight and what I found was a great deal of newer and newer evidence that fish do sense pain. I really couldn't find anything that could confirm that they didn't. Perhaps there just hasn't been a whole lot of scientific thought put forth into it untill the more recent years...eh, who knows? I'm no scientist by any means but it seems to me that pretty much any living creature must be able to feel something for the simple fact that all creatures have defense mechanisms for dealing with certain situations...it's what helps keep us alive in times of distress for fear of what may happen. I know when one of my chichlids starts picking on another one the smaller one usually swimms away as fast as he can...I can only imagine it's because it doesn't feel to good to get nipped on. If I didn't have the ability to feel pain and somebody started chewing on my leg I probably wouldn't care if I were to get eatin because I wouldn't feel it enough to know it was bad for me.
Oh well, I still won't be selling off all my fishing gear anytime soon. But it all makes me wonder...why they struggle so hard to get off the hook if they have no brain to realize something that's seriously not cool is going to happen to them.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by dutchswan
http:///forum/post/3284512
Dr. Tom Hopkins <<< NOT a neurologist, but a Marine Biologist. Google this guy, you cannot find anything about him. There is more information about me when I google myself.
Dr. Donald Broom <<< NOT a neurologist. PhD in "Animal Behavior".




I changed my post...I don't have a gag me with a spoon icon or I would use it...
 
meowzer

meowzer

Moderator
You guys do know he did not purposely torture this fish.....LOL...
He made a VERY COMMON noob error and put fish in his tank too early......he now knows this, and is not looking for any more fish at this time......all we can do is help him out now, and hope the other fish does ok
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
No one is saying he is Meowzer. I don't think he is a cerial fish murderer or anything. Just having a discussion whether the lil guys feel pain or not. Comon sense of keeping fish for years and observing they're behavior leads me to believe they do.
 
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