Diatoms? Anything I can do?

marvelfan

marvelfan

Member
Hey all!
I'm really enjoying my new aquarium! I recently spending a lot more of my time testing and check parameters (because I enjoy it, and I'm really trying to keep a pristine tank for my fishy friends).
I'm not able to battle what I think are diatoms. I never had this issue with my first 30 gallon aquarium, but the brown growth is everywhere my new tank. I've added nassarius sails and margarita snails. The only side that is staying clean is where my goby likes to reside. The newer 120 tank has been up and running for about 6 months now, but a good portion of my live rock is from my 30 gallon which was just over a year old when I made the move.
I've been trying to do some reading on the subject of diatoms, but I just can't quite find any real clear answer. My understanding is that over time the diatoms will clear up as the tank balances out. What I'm a little confused on this, as my tank seems very will balanced and stable (minus the adjustments to my 2-part dosing schedule). The only issue I seem to have is that I'd like to keep my pH higher. (I'm currently between 7.9 and 8.1, I'd like to be at a steady 8.3 or 8.4.
I've posted this before but here is my last month of testing results, and dosing adjustments. I think I was dosing way to much 2-part this last month. I've backed off and reset the amounts to a good starting point.




Day



Time



Daily Calc Dose (ml)



Daily Alk Dose (ml)



Calcium



Alkalinity



Magnesium



Salinity



pH







4/17/2013



12:00AM



60.50



66.55



340



9.0



1000



1.025



7.87





4/21/2013



10:00 PM



60.50



66.50



390



9.2



1240

1.025


8.03





5/1/2013



11:00 PM



121.00



121.00



380



13.4



1200



1.025



N/A







5/7/2013



6:00 PM



121.00



121.00



390



10.1



1160



1.025



N/A







5/12/2013



12:30 AM



121.00



121.00



380



11.8



1160



1.025



8.13







5/15/2013



10:30 PM



121.00



121.00



420



12.0



1320



1.026



8.12







5/21/2013



40 gallons - Change Water Mixed



N/A



N/A



390



11.8



1200



1.025



N/A





5/21/2013



Add 16oz Mag/8oz Calc



N/A



N/A



N/A



N/A

/>N/A


1.025



N/A





5/22/2013



40 gallones -Change Water -Final



N/A



N/A



420



10.9



1360



1.025



N/A







5/21/2013



7:00 PM



121.00



121.00



410



11.5



1200



1.025



8.05







5/22/2013



7:00 PM



121.00



121.00



440



11.5



1360



1.025



8.09







5/23/2013



11:00 PM



121.00



121.00



470



10.4



1520



1.026



8.08







5/24/2013



9:00 PM



115.00



115.50



440



9.8



1360



1.025



8.09





5/25/2013



11:45 PM



43.00



43.00



450

/>9.2


1480



1.026



8.05

here are some shots of my tank at the moment. I'm pretty sure its not cyno. I've also cut back on the amount I was feeding (2 cubes a day) I'm down to an average of one cube a day plus some reef chili 3-4 times a week.
Also worth noting that my Phosphate tested on my Hanna checker yesterday at 0.00 & Nitrates tested at 0 this last week.

 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Hi,
Your PH is too high...8.0 to 8.4
I believe your Alk is too high as well, it should be around 2.5...but I guess that is determined by the type of test kit. So what kits are you using and what do the instructions on the test say is the desired count?
Why are you dosing daily alk? Which would answer why your PH is off. If you do regular water changes you shouldn't need to dose those at all. Sometimes the coral will draw more Calcium, but again for the most part you shouldn't need to dose.
The purplish red stuff are not diatoms.....It's Cyanobacteria. I don't see any power heads in your tank. Cyano grows where the extra nutrients settle (result of overfeeding). So if you don't have power heads to move the water and suspend the stuff in the tank long enough for mechanical filtration to remove it....it grows. Also no doubt you have phosphates, a test will give you a false negative because the cyano is feeding on it.
Increase the water flow in your tank, stop overfeeding your fish, stay with the 1 cube a day. You don't have enough coral to be feeding the tank twice a week like that either. Try once a month.
The wave is the life of the ocean and your SW tank. Do small water changes weekly, put some Chemipure, or get a phosphate reactor to eliminate the PO4.
Oh...and I hve to tell you, I absolutely love your rock work...it looks awesome. I hope that arch is good and stable.
 
marvelfan

marvelfan

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/395566/diatoms-anything-i-can-do#post_3521991
Hi,
Your PH is too high...8.0 to 8.4... ???.. I"m confused by this. Every source I've ever looked at says pH for a reef tank should be 7.8-8.4. With the higher end being idea.
I believe your Alk is too high as well, it should be around 2.5...Again.. according to my sources alk between 9-11 dkH is ideal according to all my sources. but I guess that is determined by the type of test kit. So what kits are you using and what do the instructions on the test say is the desired count? I'm using Red Sea Foundations Kit for Mag, Calc and Alk.
Why are you dosing daily alk? Which would answer why your PH is off. If you do regular water changes you shouldn't need to dose those at all. Sometimes the coral will draw more Calcium, but again for the most part you shouldn't need to dose. I was dosing too much 2-part. I started dosing 2-part due to the fact that my salt mix was testing low and my small daily changes were not effecting my levels. Calc was 380, Mag was around 1000 and alk was around 9-10. I wanted to bring up calc and mag, and I does Alk because when you start dosing 2-part it is recommended to dose them equally at first and then adjust.
The purplish red stuff are not diatoms.....It's Cyanobacteria.I don't see any power heads in your tank. Cyano grows where the extra nutrients settle (result of overfeeding). So if you don't have power heads to move the water and suspend the stuff in the tank long enough for mechanical filtration to remove it....it grows. Also no doubt you have phosphates, a test will give you a false negative because the cyano is feeding on it... You can't see in the picture but I have 2 1400 GPH power heads in the front pointing into the middle and 2 550 GPH power heads angling in from the back towards the middle section to create turbulent flow in the tank. I also have 4 loc-lines pointing into the tank to creat additional flow from the return pump.
Increase the water flow in your tank, stop overfeeding your fish, stay with the 1 cube a day. You don't have enough coral to be feeding the tank twice a week like that either. Try once a month. I agree I've been overfeeding. I've been playing around with a upflow algea scrubber which is sized for 2 cubes a day. I was feeding that on average to try to seed and maintain the scrubber. However I'm not sure the scrubber is performing as I expected so I'm cutting back on my feedings now.
The wave is the life of the ocean and your SW tank. Do small water changes weekly, put some Chemipure, or get a phosphate reactor to eliminate the PO4. I'm running a BRS dual reactor with GFO and Carbon. I just changed this out on Monday. I did a test last week and phosphate tested at 0.10. I changed my media in my reactor and 2 days ago my phos tested at 0.00.
Oh...and I hve to tell you, I absolutely love your rock work...it looks awesome. I hope that arch is good and stable. _1369574806373_945" src="https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/data/smilies/thumbsup.gif" width="25" /> Thanks. I spent a lot of time on it. The arch is reinforced with water weld and fiberglass rods.
I think I will stop feeding the tank for a while and look at some strategies for combating cyno. I believe a dark period was one way. I do have to admit that my sump is looking pretty dirty at this point. I will be unhooking it from the system today and cleaning it out. I have some new filter socks I'm going to be adding to my beananimal overflow. To help catch the extra food particles.
I also have a skimmer running a wall of live rock in my sump to help filter along with the carbon reactor.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarvelFan http:///t/395566/diatoms-anything-i-can-do#post_3522006
Your PH is average at 8.9...not the highest recommended at 8.4 How do you think that is a good number? 8.5 is a little closer to ideal but yet it's high. If you are doing your tests in the early morning, that number is considerably higher then you think, since the PH rises throughout the day and is at the highest point before lights out.
DKH is different then alkalinity, which is why I asked about your test kit. Again....121 and 43 is not 9 - 11 so why would you continue to dose alkalinity when you already have very high number?
Flow....Well, in my defense, if I can't see your power heads in the picture is exactly why I asked about them...if you do have power heads, and still that much cyano, then you have a very serious phosphate problem that it's feeding on, and I suspect that overfeeding is to blame as well as off parameters.
Cyano can't survive without phosphate to fuel it...it feeds on it. All tests will give you a false negative reading if you have algae or cyano. Maybe you need to run GFO and macroalgae in the refugium.
The live rock in the sump will act like bio balls do, and eventually keep nitrates high. You are making more work for yourself because now the rock needs to be rinsed off to prevent this. Keep live rock in the refugium and display only. A refugium shouldn't need to be cleaned...that dirty look is what you want.
The scrubber idea is a good one...but don't overfeed to help it...let it work on an as needed bases.
If the tank isn't very old, all tanks under 1 year goes through all kinds of changes. Things might level out as you continue with your water changes...stop dosing alkalinity and get your PH where it should be.
Total darkness doesn't help...as soon as you turn back on the lights it will come right back. HOWEVER...red slime remover works, but to keep it away you need to fix what caused the problem. You can't use red slime remover on a constant bases, eventually the cyano will become immune to the stuff, and you don't want that to happen. So if you get the parameters back on track, do some small weekly water changes and stop over feeding, things should settle down for you.
This is the game plan I would use:
Once you get rid of the cyano using the red slime remover to kick start it's demise...get everything back on track for parameters, and stop over feeding...the reactor should be able to pull out enough phosphate to prevent it from returning.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Flower - you seem to have misread the chart. The PH is fine.
Marvel - I would not change a single thing. Keep doing what you're doing and don't worry about getting perfect numbers. You're good on everything.
 
marvelfan

marvelfan

Member
Yeah.. I think my numbers are good. I did clean my sump tonight. and did a 40 gallon water change. The sump was all built up with food particles. I added filter socks to all 3 of the overflows on the beananimal. I think it will help with all the build up. I don't have a refugium at the moment, but will be adding one if I can't get my scrubber tuned in better.
Thanks for the input. I"m hoping the major water change and the less frequent smaller feedings will resolve the issue. I'll keep my dosing schedule the way it is and adjust as necessary.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/395566/diatoms-anything-i-can-do#post_3522019
Flower - you seem to have misread the chart. The PH is fine.
Marvel - I would not change a single thing. Keep doing what you're doing and don't worry about getting perfect numbers. You're good on everything.
Hi Bang,
...I 100% trust your opinion above my own...so I went back to look at the chart...the 43.00 is what he dosed, not the reading on his alk level, and 8.5 was the reading at PM after the lights being on all day...now I see it.
genuine questions:
Wouldn't slowing down the coral food instead of 2xs a week help with getting the extra nutrients out of the tank? I never fed my corals that often...although I know they grow faster if the food is plenty, but it seems to me the cyano is enjoying the extra food more then the corals.
Also, doesn't doing regular water changes eliminate the need to dose so often?
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/395566/diatoms-anything-i-can-do#post_3522033
Hi Bang,
...I 100% trust your opinion above my own...so I went back to look at the chart...the 43.00 is what he dosed, not the reading on his alk level, and 8.5 was the reading at PM after the lights being on all day...now I see it.
genuine questions:
Wouldn't slowing down the coral food instead of 2xs a week help with getting the extra nutrients out of the tank? I never fed my corals that often...although I know they grow faster if the food is plenty, but it seems to me the cyano is enjoying the extra food more then the corals.
Also, doesn't doing regular water changes eliminate the need to dose so often?
You're still misreading the PH. The PM reading was 8.05 not 8.5 for PH. I'm not sure if the stuff on the sandbed is Cyanobacter, probably but I'm not sure.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/395566/diatoms-anything-i-can-do#post_3522049
You're still misreading the PH. The PM reading was 8.05 not 8.5 for PH. I'm not sure if the stuff on the sandbed is Cyanobacter, probably but I'm not sure.
Okay...what is the difference from saying 8.5 or saying 8.05? You're saying they are not the same number...I didn't know that.....isn't 0.25 the same as .25? I'm mathematically handicapped, I'm the first to admit. What is the value equivalent of the middle 0?
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
The difference between 8.05 and 8.5 is 0.45.
8.05 is less than 8.1
8.5 is the same as 8.50
0.25 and .25 is the same
The middle 0 in 8.05 mean there are no tenths.
0.5 = Five Tenths
0.05 = Five Hundredths
Let's look at it like money :)
8.05 is eight dollars and 5 cents
8.5 is eight dollars and fifty cents.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang Guy http:///t/395566/diatoms-anything-i-can-do#post_3522070
The difference between 8.05 and 8.5 is 0.45.
8.05 is less than 8.1
8.5 is the same as 8.50
0.25 and .25 is the same
The middle 0 in 8.05 mean there are no tenths.
0.5 = Five Tenths
0.05 = Five Hundredths
Let's look at it like money :)
8.05 is eight dollars and 5 cents
8.5 is eight dollars and fifty cents.
Okay...I actually think I understand that. Just like fractions...the larger number is actually smaller. So the PH was actually a itsy bit below natural sea water ... but still very much in the safe range, not high at all. Thank you, I know it's a little like banging your head against a brick wall...it takes me time, but I do learn...ever so slowly. LOL...now if I don't have any "senior moments" I just may be able to hang on to that information.
Thank you for being so patient, and taking the time to explain things to me.
 
tthemadd1

tthemadd1

Active Member
I have started thinking it is time for some type of sand sifter. No engineers they are too messy but maybe some snails or a sand sifting starfish? I have the same issue with my tank and think they may help keep the sandbed moving. Thoughts?
 
brimestone

brimestone

New Member
Actually i have not tested my Tap water for phosphate. Now, i will ( soon ).
UPDATE: I just had a chat with the water district and based on their reports, my tap water does not have phosphate. They will also mail me a copy of the water quality report ( See i did not know that they'll do such a thing ).
I will still do my own test for PO4 if you guys think that i should.
 
marvelfan

marvelfan

Member
Haven't fed the tank in 2 days now. on my second day of limited light and mostly darkness. Just running blues and no white lights. The sand is back to a white color. The red has regressed, but there are still some specs. I'm going to slowly add white light back in starting tomorrow night. My tests still show 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate at this point. I also added cheato last night to my sump, hoping it will help maintain the pH and absorb some nitrates as I kill off the cyano.
My corals seems fine since I'm running the blues they fully open when they come on. My anemone is fully inflated during the dark period, but when my blues come on it shrivels back and completely closes up. I'm still doing small 2 gallon water changes daily. Not much , but I plan on doing one more major 40 gallon change this weekend.
 
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