Do we really know what we are doing?

murph

Active Member
After having aquariums on and off pretty much all my life, this past years foray into reef tanks has been interesting to say the least. Unfortunately I am coming to the conclusion that the same problems that kept me away from saltwater tanks over the past 30 years are still in place. Some of my conclusions are pretty bleak and certainly up for debate. They are as follows.
Water chemistry. While I have been fortunate in this regard there is no doubt this is a predominate problem with many hobbyist. Likely culprit is lack of water volume in general and incomplete bio diversity. Some key factor is likely missing and impossible to duplicate in enclosed systems. This is the likely reason non but the hardiest of specimens can live in our systems.
Live stock health, availability, viability, compatibility and price. I think we all can agree that the collection and holding techniques to provide specimens for the hobby are dubious at best and the attrition rate is unchanged from years ago and verges on the unacceptable. Don't get me wrong here. I am far from the tree hugging type but it appears no efforts on the part of the industry are being made to change this bad situation. With the limited number of specimens that can live in the enclosed system when compared with the actual diversity that exist in the wild compatibility issues further decreases the options and leaves the hobbyist with vary limited choices. By the time many of these specimens reach the retail level there health is usually vary much compromised and even when appearing healthy and well acclimated at the retailer there potential life span has been greatly reduced.
Expense. IMO this is another area where the industry is going the wrong direction. This is a hobby and if efforts are not made to keep it affordable those entering the hobby will disappear and more and more of the veterans tanks will appear in the classified section of our news papers. This is especially true at the retail level where common mark up is one hundred percent or more and often the answer to dwindling profit margins is to raise prices even more. It appears to me that most LFS owners have no concept of economics what so ever. I have actually been told by an LFS, "I had to raise prices business was bad".

General confusion. Due to the impossibility of any kind of control group, excepted methods in this hobby can only be based on anecdotal evidence. Opinions can be quite drastic in there variance even when it comes to the accepted experts in the hobby such as Calfo and Fenner. If you read through there vast writings and contributions to forums like this and elsewhere on the Internet you will find that even there opinions can quickly change and or contradict themselves from one day to the next.
Then taking into consideration additional conflicting and or wrong advice from LFS and books any new hobbyist, with the possible exception of those with a great deal of freshwater experience, are not likely to get off on the right foot for one reason or another.
So to answer my own question. No, I don't think we really know what were doing. This is evident when even veteran reef keepers have established tanks go south on them despite there best efforts. As I eluded to in the first paragraphs of this post something in the life cycle chain is missing from the enclosed system and that "missing link" is the likely source of most problems.
Should reefs or saltwater tanks be kept at all? Sure, its a wonderful hobby but I don't think we should suffer under any illusions that the enclosed system provides a stable environment for our livestock. In other words no matter the experience or level of knowledge it boils down to a juggling act and eventually one of the balls will get dropped and in reality we cant even be sure what kind of balls we are even trying to juggle.
 

ninjamini

Active Member
Originally Posted by Murph
Water chemistry...Likely culprit is lack of water volume...
There is no way that we can truly understand how the ocean works with all of the things that are being added. But our tanks are operating just the way they should. By means of natural selection. We create an enviroment and those that can survive will and ...
Originally Posted by Murph
...there potential life span has been greatly reduced.
This is the true fact of this industry. Like any other there are sacrifices that have to be made. In the auto industry the people that make the cars can't afford to buy them. In the clothing industry the people that make them don't eat well.
Originally Posted by Murph
... Expense....
Yes It shocks me to see that a light which I can buy online is $400 and at my LFS is $700. Part of this has to do with there being a middleman getting a profit as well. But mostly I think that people that start a fish store are fish people and not business men. Most of business is counter intuitive. ie
Originally Posted by Murph

"I had to raise prices business was bad"
They don't understand that concept of a loss leader, advertising or any other business concept
Originally Posted by Murph

...Opinions can be quite drastic in there variance ...
This is true in medicine, buying a car, home inspectors. There is no right answer. Different things work for the same solution and that solution does not always work. Life is hit and miss. Want to prove that doctors do not know what they are doing? Wait till you really get something that is not a virus or a cold and go to 3 or 4 docs. You will get 3-4 opinions. No you will get 7-9 opinions because they will all send you to a specialist who will offer another opinion.
Originally Posted by Murph

...are not likely to get off on the right foot for one reason or another.
/>
YES that is true.
Originally Posted by Murph
So to answer my own question. No, I don't think we really know what were doing.
Be honest with yourself. We know what we are doing we just choose not to care. We are taking wild animals from the ocean, sometimes breeding them (yea these are still wild) and selling them to be kept in a small cage rangeing from 12-200 gallons. Thats like 0.00000000000001^50% of the ocean
Originally Posted by Murph

Should reefs or saltwater tanks be kept at all? Sure, its a wonderful hobby but I don't think we should suffer under any illusions that the enclosed system provides a stable environment for our livestock. In other words no matter the experience or level of knowledge it boils down to a juggling act and eventually one of the balls will get dropped and in reality we cant even be sure what kind of balls we are even trying to juggle.
Very true.
Its sad but its no sadder than anything else we do as humans. I am no tree hugger either, in fact I am a right winger. Logging industry - cut um down they will grow back. Global warming - yea there is no proof only varying OPINIONS.
If you want a animal that is meant for a home get a dog or a cat. Fish are wild animals and we take them and put them in a cage because they are pretty and they amuse us. Yes we want to take care of them and make them happy. But that is because we spent $$$ on them and we want them to look pretty.
 

whitey_028

Member
I like this thread anyone else have any other input on the matter? It covers the whole realm of ego(whos got a better tank),morals(is it ok to take from nature),equipment and price(will the equipment i buy be good enough to make a closed system),fish store(are most of them really businessmen or just hobbyist or neither?)Alot of good points are made here...
 

xdave

Active Member
Working at a distributor I noticed something right away about lfs owners, they either know everything about fish or business, rarely both. We had a sale on 10 galon tanks, 5.25 each. One of the rare smart businessmen/experience hobbyist sold them for $4.99. Some other stores accused us of giving them a better deal. The guy that took the $0.26 loss on the tanks now has 4 stores, the ones that complained are out of business. At the other extreme, My chain was bought by a huge chain. They had figured planograms for the tank inhabitants that would have the tanks always look full based on size of the fish and sales rates. Although some combination were perfect in that sense, medium Arrowannas and Small Neon Tetrs are a bad combination for other reasons obvious to a hobbyist.
Actually the fish collection situation has improved. When I started out 25 years ago 99.999% of fish were cyanide or explosive captured. The only exceptions were Hawaii, Australia, and a couple of captive bred clownfish here and there. Now several species of captive bred fish are readily available. Many retailers sell "sustainably harvested" specimens.
The power of supply and demand is in the hands of the consumer:
If we all refused to buy anything collected in a manner that didn't protect the species, they would all be collected in such a manner.
 

firefish9

Member
If you hate this hobby so much why are you on this site or fourum.
When you think about the greater picture, oil spills, farm run off, tourist, our hobby realy dosn't affect the ocean. :mad: The aquirm bussiness is a tough job. People always crizise them for doing this or that. They have to come home to their familes with a smile, though they Know that every second of the day people are bad mouthing them and some of there items sold may not live long. AND theres not much a small buisness can do to compete with larger ones. Sure this hobby is expenseive but arn't all hobbys? I applaud the LFS owners who put up with this every day.
 

tx reef

Active Member
Originally Posted by Skywatcher
Firefish9 you missed the point entirely. You are the only one that took this thread in a negative way.

I agree. Slow down, re-read the original post, and then post another response.
 

oceana

Active Member
Originally Posted by ninjamini
If you want a animal that is meant for a home get a dog or a cat. Fish are wild animals and we take them and put them in a cage because they are pretty and they amuse us. Yes we want to take care of them and make them happy. But that is because we spent $$$ on them and we want them to look pretty.

that just about sums it up for me.
I like them, i want them, and i will have it. i know it sound cruel or rude or what ever you can call it but like i said i have it for me not the health of the fish. if that was the case I would be donating the money to some save the ocean fund or something and not putting it into my tank.
as for do we know what we are doing. i say yes i do. if something goes wrong with my tank it will be user error or equipment failure. at some point i will screw something up thats the nature of us humans. but it wont be the system. the system that went south for "no reason" had a reason that was simply missed. at some ponit the keeper messed up.
 

xdave

Active Member
Speaking of $$$, did you know that in America more money is spent on the aquarium hobby than on cats and dogs combined? :happyfish
 

hatessushi

Active Member
We may be taking fish from their natural habitat and caging it up but is the fish better off or not? Some fish will get into a small or large tank and thrive and maybe have a better chance at a life then it would in the ocean with predators chasing it all the time. It's a crap shoot. Yes, that's it's natural environment and man has removed himself from his natural environment to. In fact there are millions who would just love to leave this earth if we could only create a stable environment that can take the rigors of space which is what man is trying to do now. Man is a naturally inquisitive being, curious about what's over the next hill, or the unknown. We are explores in many more ways then that. We are exploring when we sit and look into our tanks. It's like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gunna get. Well that was already said but makes sense. I'm gunna get off this board and go watch my tank for awhile.
 

ninjamini

Active Member
Originally Posted by HatesSushi
We may be taking fish from their natural habitat and caging it up but is the fish better off or not? Some fish will get into a small or large tank and thrive and maybe have a better chance at a life then it would in the ocean with predators chasing it all the time. It's a crap shoot. ....
WHAT? Come on...what so you live in a plastic bubble? Don't get in the car you might get hit...
O'very altruistic of us all.
 

sw65galma

Active Member
My take on this is:
There are some rules...but with every rule there are exceptions..
Since we are dealing with living creatures, they have resiliance and adapt. Each specimen is different just like we all are..some are fighters and some are quitters, some are mean and bad and some a nice.
You have to be very adaptive, take peoples experience with a grain of salt and just add it to your knowledge to make your best guess on what you are doing. Doing things differenlty may not be "wrong".
There are always better ways...just a few years ago people thought of using dead shrimp to cycle a tank...in a few more you can buy an entire cycle in a bottle, matter of fact maybe sooner with Bio-spyra.
As mechanical technology increases, bio loads can be increased, sps quality of water can be obtained easiler. The more people that get into this although some see as bad can be a good thing...more attention will be brought to this hobby. More R&D for products, more Tank raised fish, more Money into research for tank rasing and protecting..
In the end...just like raising kids..there is no "WAY" to do it.....Just do you best.
 

poniegirl

Active Member
IMO and IME are what the saltwater experience is about, truly, aren't they?
I don't own an ocean. I own 55 gallons of life that I really CARE deeply about. Down to the last hitchhiker that I didn't spend a dime on.
The variables are endless, and it sometimes feels like if I ever type again "What size tank?", I'm going to cry. We think about all of the things that matter to the health of an aquarium and the list does not end.
I don't know everything after 15 years. So far from it, it keeps me in check. I still look at my tank in awe, complete awe and wonder how on earth it survives.
Priceless.
And on a lighter note, in the words of AC/DC, whether it's 5 gal or 220 gal, we all juggle some pretty big balls.
Really nice thread, Murph. I appreciate the honest, down to earth invitation to discuss.
 
X

xoxox

Guest
If you think about it :thinking:, the saltwater experience is actually in renaissance. Look at all the new and wonderful ways people are using new equiptment and ideas in order to create a saltwater environment? Think about it :notsure:, just look at how outdated some very excellent reef books are? Its not that they are wrong, its that people have found new and better ways to do things. Yes things are expensive, but with ideas like using the web to buy things at a great discount as compared to your LFS its really very economical. If you stand back and look at the hobby as a whole, you'll find that it's a masterpiece in the making, you just have to see it for what its worth to you.
:happyfish
 

sw65galma

Active Member
AS much as I hate to say it, finding nemo was both bad and good for the hobby. It brought a lot of bad people who wanted dory in a 5 gal tank, but it brought a lot of good people as well.. Myself included.
This hobby is not for everyone...I myself is taking a break from it...I'm keeping 2 eels in my 92 and getting rid of the rest...One day I'll be back in full effect...My name will be sw2000galma lol!
 

cgrant

Active Member
well...i dont think anyone can say they fully understand the ocean, i think someone along the lines of a marine biologist might have a good start though!
 

rustyj

Member
GO TO GARF.ORG AND SEE IF YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT
They have been very successfully propogating corals successfully since the 1970's, their site is an incredible knowledge base for the beginner and 'expert' alike. I am sorry you have had really unsuccessful experiences with your tank, but the more or less balanced system is much easier and cheaper for you to build than what your LFS will sell you. Maybe I was just lucky to find this site before I was subject to the multitudes of commercialism in this hobby. My 55 gal tank has sand plenum and protein skimmer, some LR and macro algae. No expensive filters coolers, I do have a heater, or uv's, I have copods growing in the tank everywhere, as well as snails serviving to become active grazers. This site may be a revalation to you if you really want to see what you can do with this hobby without spending lots of money on expensive junk.
 

xdave

Active Member
I wish everyone could see a documentary movie about how a swf gets to the store. Isn't the plot of Finding Nemo actually about rescuing him from an aquarium?
 
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