Filtration Advice needed.

fenrir

fenrir

Member
Hello everyone!
It's been a while but I will be starting my new tank up soon. I was at my local aquarium store yesterday and they had a huge deal on LR that I couldn't pass up. He is holding my rock until I get my tank ready but I am conflicted on what I want to do for filtration. I had a Biocube for years before trading it in on my new tank and have only had my 3 gallon pico up for the past two years.
What I have:
40 Gallon Breeder tank.(The long shallow tanks)
44Lbs of LR
Will have a 2 inch LS bed.
Things I need for filtration.
1. Must be quiet(tank sits in living room)
2. No drilling into tank
3. Will be used in a reef tank
4. Don't want to spend allot of money.
I have been looking at the Rena XP3 canister filter but I wanted some insight from people that have used different options for there tanks.
 
mr. limpid

mr. limpid

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir http:///t/391571/filtration-advice-needed#post_3473407
Hello everyone!
It's been a while but I will be starting my new tank up soon. I was at my local aquarium store yesterday and they had a huge deal on LR that I couldn't pass up. He is holding my rock until I get my tank ready but I am conflicted on what I want to do for filtration. I had a Biocube for years before trading it in on my new tank and have only had my 3 gallon pico up for the past two years.
What I have:
40 Gallon Breeder tank.(The long shallow tanks)
44Lbs of LR
Will have a 2 inch LS bed. 4" is best
Things I need for filtration.
1. Must be quiet(tank sits in living room) never heard of quiet tank unless you put all equipment under tank in a closed stand
2. No drilling into tank you'll have to use inside of tank overflow system.
3. Will be used in a reef tank you'll need more LR
4. Don't want to spend allot of money. not going to happen

I have been looking at the Rena XP3 canister filter but I wanted some insight from people that have used different options for there tanks.
 
valentino82602

valentino82602

Member
To be a bit Helpful for you...You could build your own sump under the Aquarium stand using a 20 Gal tank. They do make pumps that are not that loud and you can find a lot of them on-line for good prices. You will need more LR if you are going to go "REEF" but 44 pounds is a good start for cycling the tank at first. If you go with a sump, consider adding Beneficial Algae and LR to help balance Bio load from coral and fish. My best advice is do a sump with skimmer, you will add volume to the tank and it will be some what quite, you could always sound proof the enclosure of the stand, that's what I did to mine and it has help until my wife didn't hear the water anymore and wanted it back the way it was :)
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Limpid http:///t/391571/filtration-advice-needed#post_3473422
Originally Posted by Fenrir http://filtration-advice-needed#post_3473407
Hello everyone!
It's been a while but I will be starting my new tank up soon. I was at my local aquarium store yesterday and they had a huge deal on LR that I couldn't pass up. He is holding my rock until I get my tank ready but I am conflicted on what I want to do for filtration. I had a Biocube for years before trading it in on my new tank and have only had my 3 gallon pico up for the past two years.
What I have:
40 Gallon Breeder tank.(The long shallow tanks)
44Lbs of LR
Will have a 2 inch LS bed. 4" is best A 2" sandbed will be fine. Limpid explain why 4" is "better" please
Things I need for filtration.
1. Must be quiet(tank sits in living room) never heard of quiet tank unless you put all equipment under tank in a closed stand Yes this will be a challenge.
2. No drilling into tank you'll have to use inside of tank overflow system. There are a number of ways to do this, inside overflow, outside overflow, hang on the tank filters and refugiums.
3. Will be used in a reef tank you'll need more LR 44 lbs could be a perfect amount depending on the density vs. porosity. Limpid explain why he will "need more LR" please.
4. Don't want to spend allot of money. not going to happen
You can get away less expensively if you look for deals at local clubs and the internet. But it is going to be an ongoing expense.
I have been looking at the Rena XP3 canister filter but I wanted some insight from people that have used different options for there tanks.
 
fenrir

fenrir

Member
Thanks guys!
To help clarify things a little.
The tank doesn't need to be completely silent and I do have a nice enclosed stand that the tank sits on. I just know a few people who had sumps under there tanks it was quite noisy but I didn't think of sound proofing the tank stand.
The LR I purchased is really neat and I will post some pictures of it when I bring it home. It was from my local shops display tank and was selling it for $3 a # And once I add in my 3 gallons LR it will be closer to 50lbs of LR.
For now I went out and purchased a Fluval 206 that was on sale to get me started and would eventually like to add a Refugium/Sump. (I still have a few concerns about flooding though)
I will look into the 4ich sand bed to see if it will be better for me. I seem to remember reading a few years back that deep sand beds had there issues as well.
 
njbillyv

njbillyv

Member
Can you return the Fluval 206? Seriously, if you can do it.
If you're going to start a reef tank a sump or refugium is definately the way to go. You can DIY one on the cheap. You have a stand, might as well take advantage of it.
Consider a BeanAnimal overflow system, completely silent.
Best of luck to you!
 
fenrir

fenrir

Member
Is there a simple refugium kit or plans that I can look at? I am currently looking online for one and can't find one yet. The system you posted above looks nice but I wont drill my tank to do it.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir http:///t/391571/filtration-advice-needed#post_3473407
Hello everyone!
It's been a while but I will be starting my new tank up soon. I was at my local aquarium store yesterday and they had a huge deal on LR that I couldn't pass up. He is holding my rock until I get my tank ready but I am conflicted on what I want to do for filtration. I had a Biocube for years before trading it in on my new tank and have only had my 3 gallon pico up for the past two years.
What I have:
40 Gallon Breeder tank.(The long shallow tanks)
44Lbs of LR I like both the fully stocked and rocked tanks as well as the bonsai style tanks. The most important thing is that you are satisfied with your aquascape.
Will have a 2 inch LS bed. 2" is fine, nothing is fine, 1/2" is fine, 2+, 4, 4+" is fine - you just have to know how to maintain your sandbed through critters, filtration, water flow, and sometimes the occasional slow siphon gravel vac. Put as much in there as you want, but be sure you know how to maintain it.
Things I need for filtration.
1. Must be quiet(tank sits in living room) Since you are looking into a sump, you will probably have to buy an Eshopps overflow rated for the return pump GPH that you choose. Eshopps overflows are pretty noisy - I have one myself. However, to make it less noisy, you could use a maggie muffler - they are about $20 and fit right on top of the standpipe to quiet it down. Use a gate valve on your return plumbing instead of a ball valve to get it dialed in just right.
2. No drilling into tank That's fine - doesn't matter at all, you can still have a sump.
3. Will be used in a reef tank I've had a few successful reef tanks without a sump. Don't let people tell you that you have to have one. A sump is nothing more then a way to hide all of the equipment from plain view inside the tank. Sumps make it easier to hide all of the equipment that you might want to add.
4. Don't want to spend allot of money.
No way around this one buddy - if you want a reef tank, you mise well buy quality now, then waste money on cheap equipment by needing to buy quality later.
I have been looking at the Rena XP3 canister filter but I wanted some insight from people that have used different options for there tanks. Try to avoid canister filters. They clog, they need a lot of maintenance, they have the potential to crash your tank if they don't have power for an extended period of time. Plus, it's saltwater. Even with ball valves and everything, you will eventually get a lot of saltwater on the floor.
The best advice that I can give to you is to go slow, research before you buy anything - including livestock. Ask questions, ask even tougher questions. Don't let your live fish store talk you into something that you don't want to buy or don't know much about. Above all - enjoy the hobby. Don't make it "work," make it fun, relaxing and enjoyable.
 
mr. limpid

mr. limpid

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///t/391571/filtration-advice-needed#post_3473430
Will have a 2 inch LS bed. 4" is best "Beds need to be deep enough so that zones are created in the bed. The upper levels have decreasing oxygen tension, and organic compounds are processed by aerobic bacteria. Lower in the bed, oxygen approaches near depletion and bacteria use the oxygen contained in the nitrates, produced at the upper levels, to further degrade organics but using the oxygen from the nitrate molecule. This anoxic zone is where denitrification occurs and is the main reason for having a DSB in the first place. Four inches is the suggested depth, but having slightly less usually doesn’t hurt. Extremely deep beds, on the other had, run the danger of becoming fully anaerobic at their lower levels. That is not an ideal condition and should be avoided. Even at 4-6” there are some anaerobic areas in any sand bed, but those over 10” are more likely to have substantial zones. This invites conditions where sulfates can be reduced to toxic hydrogen sulfide." taken from artical in reefkeeping.com "Reefkeeping 101 Part 2"
Will be used in a reef tank you'll need more LR More area for bacteria is always better unless you have a low bio load then you max out on bacteria growth.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
There are many ways to skin a cat.
Trust me, I know, I'm a taxidermist.
Btw, denitrification by anaerobic zones in sand have been proven to occur in as little as 1/2". So, 4" is not necessarily a necessity to get the benefits of anaerobic zone denitrification.
It just depends on what you want to maintain.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
You don't necessarily need live rock for the surface area. There are plenty of other mediums for bacteria to attach to, duh as doubled up sponge filters, Bioballs, bio pellets, plastic sponge media, balled up fishing line,... Basically anything.
Live rock provides a diverse range of micro and macro organisms which help filter the water, provide stability, and live rock is so porous that within some rocks, it provides denitrification zones by anaerobic bacterias. But here is the thing- you can provide those mediums and zones elsewhere for microorganisms to grow and thrive. It just happens that the more live rock you add to your tank, the more diverse the organisms will be and the more surface areas etc etc you add.
Anyways, I hope that made some sense. Lol. Nothing against you limpid!
 
mr. limpid

mr. limpid

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/391571/filtration-advice-needed#post_3473604
You don't necessarily need live rock for the surface area. There are plenty of other mediums for bacteria to attach to, duh as doubled up sponge filters, Bioballs, bio pellets, plastic sponge media, balled up fishing line,... Basically anything.
Live rock provides a diverse range of micro and macro organisms which help filter the water, provide stability, and live rock is so porous that within some rocks, it provides denitrification zones by anaerobic bacterias. But here is the thing- you can provide those mediums and zones elsewhere for microorganisms to grow and thrive. It just happens that the more live rock you add to your tank, the more diverse the organisms will be and the more surface areas etc etc you add.
Anyways, I hope that made some sense. Lol. Nothing against you limpid!
No offense taken. there are so many ways to keep tanks always learning more. I personal is just starting to understand macro algae. I have had it forever in my reef tank it grew out of LR, never thought about it helping keeping nitrates down, it just looked pretty. So now after my QT is freed up will QT some macro algae and add it to my FOWL, to see if my nitrates go down.
 
reefkprz

reefkprz

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/391571/filtration-advice-needed#post_3473604
You don't necessarily need live rock for the surface area. There are plenty of other mediums for bacteria to attach to, duh as doubled up sponge filters, Bioballs, bio pellets, plastic sponge media, balled up fishing line,... Basically anything.
Live rock provides a diverse range of micro and macro organisms which help filter the water, provide stability, and live rock is so porous that within some rocks, it provides denitrification zones by anaerobic bacterias. But here is the thing- you can provide those mediums and zones elsewhere for microorganisms to grow and thrive. It just happens that the more live rock you add to your tank, the more diverse the organisms will be and the more surface areas etc etc you add.
Anyways, I hope that made some sense. Lol. Nothing against you limpid!
I agree since I currently dont have as much live rock as I want for bio filtration I also use bio balls in my sump a dsb provides a fair amount of both aerobic and anaerobic nitrification and de nitrification. as well as every other "surface" in the tank grows bacteria. I have seen very successfull tanks with very little lr but massive amounts of pot scrubbies as biofiltration in the sump.
I tend to like more LR and to keep swapping out old LR for new LR as a tank matures to keep biodiversity in the micro and macro fauna high as after a while ceartain species of infauna dominate and tend and a tank tends to become less biodiverse over time. so by swapping out rock with fresh stuff you tend to keep the tank more diverse....
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefkprZ http:///t/391571/filtration-advice-needed#post_3473612
I agree since I currently dont have as much live rock as I want for bio filtration I also use bio balls in my sump a dsb provides a fair amount of both aerobic and anaerobic nitrification and de nitrification. as well as every other "surface" in the tank grows bacteria. I have seen very successfull tanks with very little lr but massive amounts of pot scrubbies as biofiltration in the sump.
I tend to like more LR and to keep swapping out old LR for new LR as a tank matures to keep biodiversity in the micro and macro fauna high as after a while ceartain species of infauna dominate and tend and a tank tends to become less biodiverse over time. so by swapping out rock with fresh stuff you tend to keep the tank more diverse....
Most people prefer to add a cup of live sand from another mature tank rather then removing rock - but that is also a viable alternative! Good ideas.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
The amount of rock is relative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4mNXS_wkjM&feature=player_embedded
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Limpid http:///t/391571/filtration-advice-needed#post_3473597
Will have a 2 inch LS bed. 4" is best "Beds need to be deep enough so that zones are created in the bed. The upper levels have decreasing oxygen tension, and organic compounds are processed by aerobic bacteria. Lower in the bed, oxygen approaches near depletion and bacteria use the oxygen contained in the nitrates, produced at the upper levels, to further degrade organics but using the oxygen from the nitrate molecule. This anoxic zone is where denitrification occurs and is the main reason for having a DSB in the first place. Four inches is the suggested depth, but having slightly less usually doesn’t hurt. Extremely deep beds, on the other had, run the danger of becoming fully anaerobic at their lower levels. That is not an ideal condition and should be avoided. Even at 4-6” there are some anaerobic areas in any sand bed, but those over 10” are more likely to have substantial zones. This invites conditions where sulfates can be reduced to toxic hydrogen sulfide." taken from artical in reefkeeping.com "Reefkeeping 101 Part 2"
Will be used in a reef tank you'll need more LR More area for bacteria is always better unless you have a low bio load then you max out on bacteria growth.
Hate to interject, but there is NO proof in that article or what not that proves otherwise that DSB are more beneficial.......Don't care where it was pulled from or what not.....As Seth kindly pointed out a sand bed as shallow as 1/2" can provide all the nitrification and denitrification process needed......This topic was debated way back in the late 80's probably earlier, and studied. Other proof mentioned about the "claim" of DSB was made about BB tanks.....So obviously you can't believe everything that article states, because if that were the case how could BB tanks be possible.....And no we won't use the excuse or claim of fancy; high tech equipment running the tank......
The argument of LR......Again.....Please.....It's all personal choice. So what your saying if I totally pack a 55 full of LR I'm set......
Nah.....Then you have no water flow through the tank, because it's packed with LR, and then all the crap settles to the bottom and what's your DSB going to do.....Become a septic tank........
 
fenrir

fenrir

Member
Wow leave the thread for a few days and it explodes. Glad to see forum is as helpful as it was a few years ago!
 
mr. limpid

mr. limpid

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir http:///t/391571/filtration-advice-needed#post_3473682
Wow leave the thread for a few days and it explodes. Glad to see forum is as helpful as it was a few years ago!
LOL don't leave threads lying around, you don't know who will jump in. Syour thread is about filtration so tanlking about sand bed is ok? Any articales out there to support the 1/2" claim? I'm in planning stages for refug. using deep sand bed.
 
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