For Fox news fans.

[bionicarm]

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oscardeuce http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/140#post_3303953
I thought based on Muslim teaching that the son of a Muslim is Muslim. On the otherhand his religion matters not to me. I judge a perosn on the content of his/her character.
 
I am not dependant on the gov't. I can fend for myself. I depend only on myself and my family. If the gov't suddenly took away all its support, I would not notice as I've never had gov't assistance. I've been willing to work hard, learn and better myself. The Katrina aftermath would not have been so devastating if the people were more independant.
 
Your argument about California is great. That's why I don't live there. If you want a leftist utopia move there. I'm stuck in California light here in Ohio. I'm thinking of moving my family to Texas, Arizona, or Montana as they seem more in line with my views.
 
I was brought up Catholic, but haven't walked into a Catholic church in 20 years. Does that still make me a Catholic? Lame argument.
 
You're not dependent on the govt? I guess you don't drive on Interstate highways, don't need any disaster assistance if a tornado or major flood hit your home, eat only food you've grown or raised so you don't have to worry about infectious diseases or bacteria, not concerned about those drugs you dispense to your patients, etc. It's the things you take for granted that the govt. provides you that you seem to be missing there.
 
 
Texas?

Boy, are you in for a surprise if you move here. You must be listening to that garbage rhetoric Rick Perry spews out of his mouth on a daily basis.

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by oscardeuce http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/140#post_3303949
Have you read the Bill?
 
I made it through most, and have had the rest thrust on me by the compliance department where I work.
 
Let's see to make the price tag come in under 1,000 billion dollars, let's cut medicare advantage, and stiff the physicins for 21%,
 
Let's require the insurance companies to provide "dependant care" to the age of 26 ( if memory serves me).
 
Let's increase taxes now and put off implementation until 2014 ( convenient to front load the taxes and back load the benefit to after the 2012 election). If it is that good of an idea implement it NOW.
 
I see you fall for blaming the hospitals and doctors. Yes, there are bad apples, and those people should be in jail. Maybe you should walk in my shoes and see how hard it is becoming to acutally get paid for what you do. If only pro atheletes had half the paperwork I have. Documentation, coding and billing charts take over 50% of my clinical hours. That's less time with the patient/family.
 
The bill also requires a private citizen to buy a product offered by a gov't approved carrier. If they do not they are levied a fine. Where in the Constitution is that?
 
I have no problems having my children covered under my insurance until they're 26. How are they supposed to pay for medical insurance when they have to spend $15K - $20K per year trying to get a college education? My oldest just started college, and she relegated herself to a Ciommunity College her first two years to cut costs. She works six daya a week to help pay for her tuition and books. And you expect her to drop $600/month for health insurance?
 
Trust me, I know exactly how the 'system' works with medical professionals and hospitals. My wife has been an ICU Nurse for almost 30 years. She's seen firsthand the abuses and 'kickbacks' these doctors get from Medicare/Medicaid. She's picked up discrepanicies all the time - A patient shown to have used twice as many units of saline during a 2 day stay in the hospital than they were administered, patients who have drugs listed as being administered, yet she never saw them given to her patient, and they weren't on any of the reports. The list goes on. Is this out of norm for hospitals these days? You tell me. She has said that abuses have decreased immensely over the years, but they still occur.

 

[spanko]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/140#post_3303666
 
 
"The Powers not delegated to the federal government by the constitution" - How exactly are these 'powers' defined? (read the enumerated powers) How convoluted and confusing would the Constitution be if the Founding Fathers were to specifically state in detail what their expectations of 'powers' would be? (they did exactly that and stated all else goes to the state and the people) The kind of power the Federal Govt. had when the Constitution was created is NOTHING compared to what the Federal Govt. is today. The Creators could have never perceived in their wildest dreams how this country would evolve over the last couple of centuries since its inception. I'm sure the Founding Fathers would have never imagined there would be a Dept. of Transportation, Dept. of Education, Dept. of Rural Affairs, FEMA, and the hundred other government agencies we have today. Whose to say that group didn't fully expected future generations to modify the Constitution to 'fit the current times and situations' facing the American people at any specific point in time? Do we have documented proof that has Thomas Jefferson saying, "The Constitution should NEVER be changed, specificall y the Bill Of Rights."? (ever hear of the amendment process)
 
 
 
Radical Constitutionalist like yourself are very scary people. You don't want 'Big Government' telling you want to do in your lives, but if the Federal Govt. dropped every bit of support and assistance away from you, chaos would occur in a matter of weeks. You're all for States Rights, yet I can show you HUNDREDS of examples where laws passed by States are more restrictive, and take 10 times as many of your legal rights away as any Federal law does. Look at that Bell County in California. The mayor and City Council had salaries of over $1 MILLION each in one of the most poverty-stricken areas in that state. I can document at least 10 current laws passed by my local City Council that infringe on my rights. They just passed a law that mandates that a small business can no longer allow smoking in their establishment, even if they put up signs telling people smoling is allowed. So how are States and Local rights and laws better than Federal laws? (State and local laws can be easily taken care of, don't like them or any part of them, move to another state that you agree with. The only way to get away from the federal gov't is to move to another country, not a real good option. The founders set it up this way when they gave the powers not enumerated to the fed solely to the states and to the people)
 
Just sayin.
 

 

[bionicarm]

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanko http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/160#post_3303983
Just sayin.
 
I love the fix all statement of "If you don't like the laws in your city or state, just move." You make it sound so easy. It would be just as easy for me to move out of this country as it would to move to another state. Unemployment is hitting 9%. Housing market is in shambles. Suuuure. I can just pack up and find another job for my wife and me that pays what we make today. Suuuure, I can throw my $350,000 house on the market and it'll be sold next week. AGAIN, if you don't like a law that was created by the Feds, GET IT CHANGED. WE THE PEOPLE have that power. Congress isn't the Pharoah of Egypt (Yul Brenner in the Ten Commandments comes to mind) "So let it be written. So let it be done."
 

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/140#post_3303922
Where are you reading this? Is this just another one of your exerpts from some right-wing blog site, or have you actually read the health care bill in its entirety? I'd think you'd be overjoyed to get rid of a bloated, mismanaged Federal Govt.-run program like Medicare/Medicaid? If the people on that program can get the same services they get today, and pay around the same amount for it, why not get rid of that program? I can guarantee you I could get an insurance plan just as good or better than Medicare with the 7.5% in FICA taxes I pay every year, and have been paying for the last 38 years. You know how many BILLIONS of dollars we as tax payers have lost with false and inflated claims hospitals and doctors have filed with Medicare/Medicaid?
 
It's about time insurance companies cover procedures that you would think should've been covered in the first place. I love how these insurance companies can use this 'preexisting condition' excuse to keep from paying a person's claim. You know how many thousands of dollars I've given to insurance companies over the years, and never filed enough claims to even come close to what I paid for those policies? But when I do finally need to use them, they give me these 'conditions' or excuses as to why I'm not covered.
 
To this day, I've yet to see what these 'costs' or 'rates' will be for obtaining insurance under this plan. Whatever they are, they won't even pertain to me anyway, because I get my health insurance through my wife's group plan. Will that plan go up? Probably. Her plan has gone up at least 5% every year for the last 10 years. We either pay higher premiums, or they've raised the Out-Of-Pocket Max, or the Family and Individual deductibles. They've been doing this WAY before Obama's little plan was enacted. If there's alternative options for obtaining insurance outside her group plan, at least I'll have an alternative. Right now it's "My Way or The Highway" with her current provider. She can't even opt out of her plan unless she can show proof she's covered on some other form of insurance plan.
 
Yes, I actually have gone through and read provisions in the bill, something you OBVIOUSLY have not. So now it goes from "nothing is changing" to "you'd be glad to get rid of a bloated program".
 
If I lose the Medicare Advantage then I will have to go to straight Medicare which doesn't have the same coverage and buy an additional policy to cover drugs and such. Last I looked it was about 38 bucks a month. Not a big deal for me but there are plenty of folks out there who it will be a big deal for.
One friend just had his rate for his Blue Cross go from 320 to 440 a month. Gee, that couldn't have been related to Obamacare could it?

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/160#post_3303982
I have no problems having my children covered under my insurance until they're 26. How are they supposed to pay for medical insurance when they have to spend $15K - $20K per year trying to get a college education? My oldest just started college, and she relegated herself to a Ciommunity College her first two years to cut costs. She works six daya a week to help pay for her tuition and books. And you expect her to drop $600/month for health insurance?
 
Trust me, I know exactly how the 'system' works with medical professionals and hospitals. My wife has been an ICU Nurse for almost 30 years. She's seen firsthand the abuses and 'kickbacks' these doctors get from Medicare/Medicaid. She's picked up discrepanicies all the time - A patient shown to have used twice as many units of saline during a 2 day stay in the hospital than they were administered, patients who have drugs listed as being administered, yet she never saw them given to her patient, and they weren't on any of the reports. The list goes on. Is this out of norm for hospitals these days? You tell me. She has said that abuses have decreased immensely over the years, but they still occur.
My wife says she'd like to know how to just get paid by medicare, let alone get a kickback

 

 

[spanko]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/160#post_3303997
 
I love the fix all statement of "If you don't like the laws in your city or state, just move." You make it sound so easy. It would be just as easy for me to move out of this country as it would to move to another state. Unemployment is hitting 9%. Housing market is in shambles. Suuuure. I can just pack up and find another job for my wife and me that pays what we make today. Suuuure, I can throw my $350,000 house on the market and it'll be sold next week. AGAIN, if you don't like a law that was created by the Feds, GET IT CHANGED. WE THE PEOPLE have that power. Congress isn't the Pharoah of Egypt (Yul Brenner in the Ten Commandments comes to mind) "So let it be written. So let it be done."
 
Come on man, I am not saying this is a possibility for everyone right now. The system has been being f'd up for about 100 years now and will take time to change back. But the comment about moving from state to state was the original intent. Fed's had their enumerated powers, states and people had all of the rest. The states were a "proving" ground for the way things would be done. If you did not like it you voted out the bums or you moved.
 
I think we are really on the same wavelength here with the "change the law" statement you made. I agree, get all of the "laws" that have been put in place by the feds that are not part of the original enumerated powers repealed and get them back to what they should be doing. I'll take it a step further, do away with most if not all of the following list if they are not as originally enumerated.
http://www.usa.gov/Agencies/Federal/All_Agencies/index.shtml
 

 

[bionicarm]

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/160#post_3303998
 
Yes, I actually have gone through and read provisions in the bill, something you OBVIOUSLY have not. So now it goes from "nothing is changing" to "you'd be glad to get rid of a bloated program".
 
If I lose the Medicare Advantage then I will have to go to straight Medicare which doesn't have the same coverage and buy an additional policy to cover drugs and such. Last I looked it was about 38 bucks a month. Not a big deal for me but there are plenty of folks out there who it will be a big deal for.
One friend just had his rate for his Blue Cross go from 320 to 440 a month. Gee, that couldn't have been related to Obamacare could it?
My premiums went up 15% more this year from the last. What's your point? I've level-set myself with the attitude that I won't see my Medicare and SS benefits by the time I retire. That program is steadily running out of money, with no insight on how to keep it running. If not ObamaCare, then what's the alternative? Stay status quo, and allow the major insurance companies dictate what we pay and the services they'll provide? Don't tell me, allow "across state lines" option of purchasing insurance. How exactly will that change things? You think Aetna will charge less for insurance coverage in Alabama than they would in Arizona? You honestly think major insurance companies wouldn't keep their rates in line with one another to maintain their bottom line? It's all about the money. Do you support regulation of the insurance companies? If so, doesn't that reek of Socialism?
 

 

[stdreb27]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/140#post_3303816
At least I actually UNDERSTAND my current health care plan. You only know what some right-wing media outlet tells you. THESKY IS FALLING!
Says the person who thinks the Iraq war is a giant conspiracy... lol
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marydem http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/140#post_3303944
the stimulus created/saved 1.6 million jobs and GDP was 3.2% higher than without the stimulus.
(http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/69923-cbo-stimulus-saved-or-created-as-many-as-16m-jobs)
 
my point is that we would have been in the depths of a full-scale depression if the stimulus hadn't passed. thanks to President Obama and a Democratic congress for saving the economy from ruin.
You really believe this? Wow, Obama might as well said, there is no sky. That is more true than what their economics teams are spitting out.
 

 

[reefraff]

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/160#post_3304028
 
My premiums went up 15% more this year from the last. What's your point? I've level-set myself with the attitude that I won't see my Medicare and SS benefits by the time I retire. That program is steadily running out of money, with no insight on how to keep it running. If not ObamaCare, then what's the alternative? Stay status quo, and allow the major insurance companies dictate what we pay and the services they'll provide? Don't tell me, allow "across state lines" option of purchasing insurance. How exactly will that change things? You think Aetna will charge less for insurance coverage in Alabama than they would in Arizona? You honestly think major insurance companies wouldn't keep their rates in line with one another to maintain their bottom line? It's all about the money. Do you support regulation of the insurance companies? If so, doesn't that reek of Socialism?
 
What allowing to buy across state lines does is set up competition. Right now states require insurers to cover things that are really elective procedures. You as the consumer have no option on your policy, the insurer cannot sell you a policy that doesn't include those coverages. Things like reproductive therapy and such. With being able to buy out of state you can find a policy that best meets your situation.
 
As far as Medicare and social security (Did you hear Obama say it wasn't a crisis last week?) it is in major trouble. They are going to have to raise the taxes and cut benefits which means the evil means testing the Democrats vilified the Republicans with during the 96' elections. Thing is we need a leader with enough stones to take it on. You might not have liked Bushes idea but you got to respect the man for having guts enough to take on the issue.
 
Personally I think they will end up removing the cap on FICA, raise retirement to 70 and do some kind of means testing. I think it should mainly be a deal where they cut benefits for people with pensions rather than savings but I am sure the unions will figure out a way to shoot anything like that down.
 

 

[bionicarm]

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stdreb27 http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/160#post_3304045
Says the person who thinks the Iraq war is a giant conspiracy... lol
 
You really believe this? Wow, Obama might as well said, there is no sky. That is more true than what their economics teams are spitting out.
 
Iraq War a conspiracy? Show me the WMD's. Actually I think the Iraq War was a waste of over a TRILLION dollars that could've been used to infuse our economy and get our unemployment numbers down. What exactly did we gain from that little conflict? Oh yeah, we knocked off a Dictator that never actually threatened our borders, and we got to get all warm and fuzzy about trying to convert a bunch of religious fanatics to a Democratic system that will most likely be overturned in a few years from now after the Sunni's, Taliban, Kurds, or whichever religious nuts will overthrow that government yet again.
 

 

[stdreb27]

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/160#post_3304054
 
Iraq War a conspiracy? Show me the WMD's. Actually I think the Iraq War was a waste of over a TRILLION dollars that could've been used to infuse our economy and get our unemployment numbers down. What exactly did we gain from that little conflict? Oh yeah, we knocked off a Dictator that never actually threatened our borders, and we got to get all warm and fuzzy about trying to convert a bunch of religious fanatics to a Democratic system that will most likely be overturned in a few years from now after the Sunni's, Taliban, Kurds, or whichever religious nuts will overthrow that government yet again.
 
Funny, how you'll run around telling us we're all a buncha kooks. Just because the kooks you chose to believe have a bigger antenna and more satellites and a fancy 3 letter acronym, ABC, NBC, CBS. doesn't mean they're any less nutty, wrong, and extremist...
I'll show you a guy who wants to spread the wealth around, and open our borders...

 

[bionicarm]

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/160#post_3304047
 
What allowing to buy across state lines does is set up competition. Right now states require insurers to cover things that are really elective procedures. You as the consumer have no option on your policy, the insurer cannot sell you a policy that doesn't include those coverages. Things like reproductive therapy and such. With being able to buy out of state you can find a policy that best meets your situation.
 
As far as Medicare and social security (Did you hear Obama say it wasn't a crisis last week?) it is in major trouble. They are going to have to raise the taxes and cut benefits which means the evil means testing the Democrats vilified the Republicans with during the 96' elections. Thing is we need a leader with enough stones to take it on. You might not have liked Bushes idea but you got to respect the man for having guts enough to take on the issue.
 
Personally I think they will end up removing the cap on FICA, raise retirement to 70 and do some kind of means testing. I think it should mainly be a deal where they cut benefits for people with pensions rather than savings but I am sure the unions will figure out a way to shoot anything like that down.
 
Competition with who? Themselves? You only have two or three major players in the health insurance business - Blue Cross, Aetna, United Healthcare, and a couple of others. You don't think they wouldn't align their rates with one another? Sure, you can save a little money doing this 'cookie cutter' selection of what you want on your insurance policy, but exactly what does that buy you in the long run? You could save a few hundred dollars a year by electing to not have coverage for any form of cancer treatments. What happens when you all of a sudden get colon or prostate cancer? Ooops, guess I didn't think that could happen to me. Also, what guarantees would you have that a policy you bought from some Mom And Pop insurance provider in Greenbow, Alabama would be accepted by your local doctors and hospitals? My wife's hospital changed over to a new insurance provider a couple years ago. My daughters physician who she's gone to since she was born didn't accept that insurance. So we either had to pay out the nose for 'Out Of Network' services with her doctor, or go find a new doctor unfamiliar with her medical history. My wifee was telling me that they almost went with this one group provider because of their lower premiums, but right before they changed, they found out that their own hospital was considered Out Of Network for their coverage! So if she needed to be admitted to a hospital for any reason, she couldn't even go to the one she works at without paying an arm and a leg for services. You have to look at the overall cost of an insirance policy, not just what you're paying in premiums.
 

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by stdreb27 http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/160#post_3304055
 
Funny, how you'll run around telling us we're all a buncha kooks. Just because the kooks you chose to believe have a bigger antenna and more satellites and a fancy 3 letter acronym, ABC, NBC, CBS. doesn't mean they're any less nutty, wrong, and extremist...
I'll show you a guy who wants to spread the wealth around, and open our borders...
What are you talking about? What part of my statement on the Iraq War do you think is based on conspiracies and conjecture? Show me pictures of these WMD's Hussein had. Don't give me this, "They found evidence of uranium deposits, or other chemical byproducts that were stored in Iraq AT SOME POINT IN TIME." They just magically disappeared when we went looking for them. Go look at the amount of money we dumped into that war over the last 8 years. It's should be easy to find the totals. Again, what did we get for that Trillion or more we shoveled into their little hands? Terroristic threats still exist. Osama Bin Laden is still on the loose. Those are FACTS that I don't need ANY news network to tell me.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/160#post_3304054
 
Iraq War a conspiracy? Show me the WMD's. Actually I think the Iraq War was a waste of over a TRILLION dollars that could've been used to infuse our economy and get our unemployment numbers down. What exactly did we gain from that little conflict? Oh yeah, we knocked off a Dictator that never actually threatened our borders, and we got to get all warm and fuzzy about trying to convert a bunch of religious fanatics to a Democratic system that will most likely be overturned in a few years from now after the Sunni's, Taliban, Kurds, or whichever religious nuts will overthrow that government yet again.
 
How many jobs were created by military suppliers and such? Just saying. WWII is what broke the depression, not FDR's feel good spending programs.
 

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/160#post_3304056
 
Competition with who? Themselves? You only have two or three major players in the health insurance business - Blue Cross, Aetna, United Healthcare, and a couple of others. You don't think they wouldn't align their rates with one another? Sure, you can save a little money doing this 'cookie cutter' selection of what you want on your insurance policy, but exactly what does that buy you in the long run? You could save a few hundred dollars a year by electing to not have coverage for any form of cancer treatments. What happens when you all of a sudden get colon or prostate cancer? Ooops, guess I didn't think that could happen to me. Also, what guarantees would you have that a policy you bought from some Mom And Pop insurance provider in Greenbow, Alabama would be accepted by your local doctors and hospitals? My wife's hospital changed over to a new insurance provider a couple years ago. My daughters physician who she's gone to since she was born didn't accept that insurance. So we either had to pay out the nose for 'Out Of Network' services with her doctor, or go find a new doctor unfamiliar with her medical history. My wifee was telling me that they almost went with this one group provider because of their lower premiums, but right before they changed, they found out that their own hospital was considered Out Of Network for their coverage! So if she needed to be admitted to a hospital for any reason, she couldn't even go to the one she works at without paying an arm and a leg for services. You have to look at the overall cost of an insirance policy, not just what you're paying in premiums.
 
 
It's the individual states that set the things required in health policies. Your argument about cancer coverage is just stupid. What state isn't going to have that as a minimum coverage requirement? Not having things like fertility treatments and drug counseling are good places to cut.
 

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/160#post_3304061
 
It's the individual states that set the things required in health policies. Your argument about cancer coverage is just stupid. What state isn't going to have that as a minimum coverage requirement? Not having things like fertility treatments and drug counseling are good places to cut.
 
How much are you going to cut from a premium by omiiting fertility treatments and drug counseling? Those are 'one offs' that a small minority of individuals would use, and they cost hardly anything to insurnace providers to cover. So you're saying you want each state to dictate what can or can't be covered in my health insurance plan? So does this go back to if I can't get a policy that protects me for things I want covered, I have to move to a state that does? Again, you make it sound like there's hundreds of insurance companies vying for customers to come buy their plans. You local insurance agent doesn't actually provide the coverage. He contracts out to one of these major providers for their services, and gets his cut of the premiums for it. Again, what guarantee would I have that some insurance I bought in Florida would be accepted by any health providers in Texas?
 

 

[bionicarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/160#post_3304058
How many jobs were created by military suppliers and such? Just saying. WWII is what broke the depression, not FDR's feel good spending programs.
 
You can't compare the jobs that were created during WWII with the jobs that were generated for this Iraq Conflict. There is no comparison. In WWII, American manufacturing plants prospered building ships, tanks, planes, and all the other items needed to fight that war. We haven't prospered economically or increased our employment statistics since with any other US involvement in a war (Korean War, VietNam, Gulf War 1, Gulf War 2). The only one's making money off the Iraq War are these contractors and consultants like Halliburton. How many companies in your area opened up in the last 8 years specifically designed to support the Iraq War?

 

[spanko]

I don't want any government entity telling me or the insurance carriers what has to be covered in an insurance policy. I also want the insurance industry opened up so that all insurance companies can sell their products in all states. Then you don't have to worry about what state you live in, it will be up to you to shop the market and choose the best plan to fit your needs.
 
"Again, what guarantee would I have that some insurance I bought in Florida would be accepted by any health providers in Texas?"
 
Your own due diligence into what you were buying.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bionicarm http:///forum/thread/379731/for-fox-news-fans/160#post_3304064
You can't compare the jobs that were created during WWII with the jobs that were generated for this Iraq Conflict. There is no comparison. In WWII, American manufacturing plants prospered building ships, tanks, planes, and all the other items needed to fight that war. We haven't prospered economically or increased our employment statistics since with any other US involvement in a war (Korean War, VietNam, Gulf War 1, Gulf War 2). The only one's making money off the Iraq War are these contractors and consultants like Halliburton. How many companies in your area opened up in the last 8 years specifically designed to support the Iraq War?
I am not comparing the two, just saying from a dollar and cents standpoint Iraq has created jobs so that trillion has added to the economy, probably as much as the Ostimulus.