Going to try a LED build. Any advice is appreciated

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/20#post_3409587
I remember having a conversation awhile ago with Corey about the subject matter, but if my memory serves me correct the HLG's can't be opened and adjusted as the ELN's....Corey correct me if I'm wrong or misunderstood you.....
The HLG A's have adjustment pots built into the case so you don't have to open the case. The B's don't have any at all. But the ELN's he's using do.
 

cryptics

Member
I am still using the ELN's for right now. I know how toadjust it. I have turned it down 3/4 to test it. The problem I have is i don't know how to use the multimeter to tellme the amps so i can adjust it.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptics http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/40#post_3409618
I am still using the ELN's for right now. I know how toadjust it. I have turned it down 3/4 to test it. The problem I have is i don't know how to use the multimeter to tellme the amps so i can adjust it.
You have to have it set for D.C. Amps. Probably on your lowest d.c. setting. You use it like you would as it were in led. Take your positive lead and touch it to a positive on one of the leds, then take you're common (black) lead and hold it to the negative on another led. Can you take a close up pic of the meter you're using?
 

cryptics

Member

It seems whatever I do I get a value of 1. Also not sure if I should have the positive in 10a or the other one. Any help is greatly appreciated. This is all i have left to do on this one really
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
You need to plug your positive (red) lead into the 10amp DC port in order to get the correct reading. It is on the correct setting otherwise.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member

cryptics

Member
Ohh I was attaching the probes directly to the driver. It has to be in the LED strip? On the lowest setting I was getting .48 wired directly to the driver
 

cryptics

Member
Ok I took one of the wires out on my white stand and set the first driver to .75. Can I set all the drivers using that one sting or do they need to be set on the string they will be running?
 

reefledlights

New Member
Thought Id mention my personal experience on the harmonics issue.
"The question of driver harmonics has come up may times. According to both Mean Well and Inventronics the start up current draw can be as high 30 or even 60 Amps. This happens for a micro second. If you consider 10 or 20 Mean Well ELN60-48D drivers all turned on at exactly the same micro second the max Cold Start Inrush Current of 60A x 10 or 20 is capable of overwhelming standard household circuits. We have yet to see a documented case of this happening and the engineers at Mean Well dismiss this as a safety issue. We agree as in today’s overly litigious society we would see warning labels saying do dot turn on more than one at a time. This said its not a bad idea to have your drivers plugged into fused surge protected powerstrips. This is more to protect your investment from outside electrical surges but the protection works both ways. If you are still concerned, staggering the on times eliminates the extremely remote chance of this phenomena occurring."
I personally run over 12 Mean Well Drivers on my system They are all connected the the APEX EB8 which has a built in 15A fuse. Its been running fine for several years as I was one of the first to switch over to LEDs back in the day. I have yet to see a problem of running many drivers on a single circuit nor have I read or seen a single documented case of driver harmonics damaging household circuits. I understand the theory but in todays society warning labels are placed on cups of coffee advising that fresh coffee is hot. Even our salt buckets have warning labels cautioning a drowning hazard. If there were any chance of harmonics being a safety issue I would think the lawyers on one side would be bringing class action lawsuits and lawyers from the other side would be putting warning labels everywhere.
Bill
 

cryptics

Member
Bill,
When will the splash guards be ready for the 12x8.5 heatsinks. I can't wait. Would rather get it premade than try to DIY one.
About the Harmonics I am not really worried as i only have 4 right now and they will be split between two dedicated circuits. I am considering getting the HLG's because hey better safe than sorry and I would be able to cut down the amount of drivers I have to 2. Is there a reason to stay with the ELN's over the HLG's?
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Dude you sell eln's and so does meanwell why should we trust you? Kidding!
Untill I see a true independant study done that says its just fine to run that many than the jury is still out for me. Besides th inrush and harmonics go is one. Thing. But when you know how many amps they pull while running and ad that up per driver than unless you have them split up or on dedicated circuis than anything more than 10 or 12 of these things could already have you overloading the circuit. Unless you know wht an individuals situation is goig to be I don't see how anyone can say that its safe to go to high with these things. Anybody want to guess how many electrical fires occurs each year in this country from overloaded circuits?
 

reefledlights

New Member
2Quills
I'm just posting my personal experience and opinion based on my own reef tank. I dont perscribe to groupthink but feel objective review of the collective experience found in the reef forums has been invaluable to the success of my own reef.
I really would like to see an independent study as well. It seems that this issue of harmonics pops up now and then and its gets everyone running for the cellar.
On my 570mixed I have 6 Meanwell ELN 60-48Ds and 6 Meanwell LPC 35-700s. These are all connected to the APEX EB8 along with a couple fans. The total energy draw on my APEX Display is 13.3A. The EB8 has a 15A fuse built in and has yet to trip .
I'm looking at this logically and think in our highly litigious society with a layer hiding behind every ambulance and wet cleanup sign we would have seen some sort of warning or caution from the major driver manufacturers. I even spoke to Mean Well personally and asked them about this and they were not concerned at all.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Reefledlights
I hear you. And I hope you didn't take my comment as being negative. I believe the collective experience gained by the masses has done wonders for this hobby as well.
I don't mean to knock you hear at all. But something you should understand, especially since you sell this technology to the public, is that playing around with electrical circuitry is not the same as spilling coffee on yourself. If you forget to check the lid on your cup and end up taking a bath in your double mocha cappuccino then shame on you. But at least in a situation like that then you're the only one who gets burned.
I believe this hearkens back to my comment that builds should be evaluated on a case by case basis and not generalized as a one size fits all. In you're case you are running 12 drivers. Half of which are linear and the other half are non linear smp's. So you can't quite compare your fixture to the same thing as running 12 ELN's because it isn't the same. There are oodles of information on the differences between the two floating around on the web. A simple glance on wikipedia can give you a general idea about those differences. And a little googling on the relationship between non linear switch mode power supplies can yield you some further information about the high harmonic frequencies that they produce and why EMI and RF filters should be used. I think the biggest problem and what no body really seems to be clear about is when and at what point does it become an issue to be concerned with. Not just or so much about the idea it might burn your house down. But what do those frequencies do when they interact with other electrical devices?
I am a little curious to know exactly what you spoke to the folks at Meanwell about and what questions were asked. Did they provide you with some type of actual numbers or guidelines to stick with or did they just say throw as many drivers as you want on there, it's just fine? And did you speak with a rep. or did you actually speak with an electrical engineer who designs these power supplies? I wonder because I'm curious that if harmonics is nothing to be concerned with then why are they building drivers like the HLG which are better suited for larger builds with built in active power factor correction to minimize such frequencies? I would think that if there was nothing to be concerned about then why go through the extra trouble?
Harmonics and inrush current aside lets look at things from a practical stand point. I like to celebrate the holidays and put lights up around the house. I have not yet burned the house down because of this. But that doesn't mean that other folks haven't. I'm at least half way smart enough to understand that there are limits to everything. And pushing those limits increases the potential for bad things to happen.
You have your drivers hooked up to an EB8 that has a built in 15amp fuse. So you can't pull more than 15 amps through your controller before the fuse pops. That's smart, and a good way to go. But not everybody thinks about those things. But it doesn't neccssarily do anything to protect the rest of the circuit either. Some folks have 15 amp circuits in their house and some have 20 amp circuits. Any self respecting electrician will tell you that you should never run a combined total of devices that will draw more than 80% of your circuits capacity. Why? Safety! Electrical fires happen from pushing the limits. And not everybodies household circuitry is as safe as the next guys. So a safe limit would considered as 12 amps on a 15 amp circuit and 16 amps on a 20 amp circuit. Anything more then that is already considered over loading the circuit.
Lets look at the ELN's. For all intensive purposes we'll go by what the specs say and that is that they pull 1.3 amps when in operation. Even though some guys are drawing around 1.5 amps with them. We'll say 1.3a. 10 drivers would be pulling 13 amps, already overloading the 15 amp circuit, may or may not burn the house down. Probably not but I hope you're not an unlucky person. 12 drivers pulling 15.6 amps. Close to the limit on a 20 amp circuit but not quite over. But what about the folks trying to run these fixtures on the same circuit that they have all of their other aquarium equipment on? It's only gonna take 1 heater to put yourself in the so called risk zone.
So my point is simply to help create awareness. I'm not gonna say that you should do this or shouldn't do that. I'm just going to say what I would or wouldn't do. And I personally would never run more than 10 of those drivers, even on it's own dedicated circuit. But that's just me. Everyone else makes the choice for themselves. I just think they should try and educate themselves in this area as much as possible before taking on builds like these. More so since it isn't just our reef inhabitants to worry about, but it's us and our families.
 

reefledlights

New Member
2Quills
Its good to have this discussion as my families safety is my primary concern.
I contacted the the engineering department at Mean Well from their their website. I asked them (not sure if he was a High School Tec Rep or Engineer with Doctorate but seemed familiar with the question) if there was a problem running 10 ELN60-48D or LPC35-700 drivers on a new dedicated 20 amp household circuit. Their response was there should be no problem. I then asked about the subject of harmonics and he said that he was not aware of any cases were numerous drivers on the same circuit caused a problem. This was well over a year ago and maybe you would like to follow up with a second call to see if anything has changed if I have time tomorrow I may make a second call and follow up.
For the record I fully agree on the 80% rule and also feel all our reef electrical equipment should be on fused power strips and where water is possible on GFIs. Its a lot better to pop a 15A breaker off a power strip than a 20Amp household one. As far as holidays go you are right about the unsafe practices committed by the general public. However I'm still not convinced 10 ELN60-48D on a fused surge protector tied to a dedicated 20 Amp circuit is unsafe in any way provided the drivers are set to the 1.3A they are rated for. By the way I've seen these draw up to 1.8A before they were adjusted.
Bill
 
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