Going to try a LED build. Any advice is appreciated
- Thread starter cryptics
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mr btldreef
Member
I've been looking at the 420mm violet leds that Satis carries. Id be hesitant to go any lower than that. I've heard good things about em.
From where have you heard? I cannot not find a straight forward post with proof they are indeed essential. I would be interested in finding the truth about the uv LEDs.
From where have you heard? I cannot not find a straight forward post with proof they are indeed essential. I would be interested in finding the truth about the uv LEDs.
mr btldreef
Member
I've been looking at the 420mm violet leds that Satis carries. Id be hesitant to go any lower than that. I've heard good things about em.
From where have you heard? I cannot not find a straight forward post with proof they are indeed essential. I would be interested in finding the truth about the uv LEDs.
From where have you heard? I cannot not find a straight forward post with proof they are indeed essential. I would be interested in finding the truth about the uv LEDs.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr btldreef http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/80#post_3434943
From where have you heard? I cannot not find a straight forward post with proof they are indeed essential. I would be interested in finding the truth about the uv LEDs.
Mostly over on the big site (that where not allowed to mention here) I'm sure you know the one. There's been a number of people who've experimented on them and have been a few threads dedicated to talking about them, there was actually one that was started recently in the last couple of weeks.
I believe the general consensus is that the 420nm violets are the ones you want. Not the ones in the low 400' or high 300nm range as they really don't do much of anything and are the ones to avoid because too much u.v. can be a bad thing for your corals and your eyes if you look at too much of it.
If you look at any spectral graphs on the subject for chlorophyll A and B in regaurds to light absortion you'll see that there are two very important peaks in the spectrum for Chloroplyll A and those peaks are right around 420nm and also 660-680nm, hence the 420nm leds and the Osram 660's. Also in regaurds to Chlorophyll B most of the photosynthetic activity happens in the 460-480nm range, and that's where the use of the royal blue and cool blue's come in as the two of them will cover that range very well.
From what I've heard, haven't seen but heard other than my own experience with flourescents is that the 420nm leds is where you get the amazing flouresence pop in your purples and blue's as well as certain pinks and reds. The red leds don't excite the flourescence in those wavelengths, they just help bring out the naturally warmer colors in the tank. But the osram 660's are better in regaurds to encouraging growth and I think Eco Tech realized that as well and those are what they are using in their new fixtures.
Originally Posted by Mr btldreef http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/80#post_3434943
From where have you heard? I cannot not find a straight forward post with proof they are indeed essential. I would be interested in finding the truth about the uv LEDs.
Mostly over on the big site (that where not allowed to mention here) I'm sure you know the one. There's been a number of people who've experimented on them and have been a few threads dedicated to talking about them, there was actually one that was started recently in the last couple of weeks.
I believe the general consensus is that the 420nm violets are the ones you want. Not the ones in the low 400' or high 300nm range as they really don't do much of anything and are the ones to avoid because too much u.v. can be a bad thing for your corals and your eyes if you look at too much of it.
If you look at any spectral graphs on the subject for chlorophyll A and B in regaurds to light absortion you'll see that there are two very important peaks in the spectrum for Chloroplyll A and those peaks are right around 420nm and also 660-680nm, hence the 420nm leds and the Osram 660's. Also in regaurds to Chlorophyll B most of the photosynthetic activity happens in the 460-480nm range, and that's where the use of the royal blue and cool blue's come in as the two of them will cover that range very well.
From what I've heard, haven't seen but heard other than my own experience with flourescents is that the 420nm leds is where you get the amazing flouresence pop in your purples and blue's as well as certain pinks and reds. The red leds don't excite the flourescence in those wavelengths, they just help bring out the naturally warmer colors in the tank. But the osram 660's are better in regaurds to encouraging growth and I think Eco Tech realized that as well and those are what they are using in their new fixtures.
mr btldreef
Member
Thank you. I will check that site not to be mentioned and see what I can learn... Obviously you did your homework on that and came out with an excellent answer. 420nm is the key to growth without a doubt. I do want to see if these reds can perform in the way I want them to. I will document this on cryptis' thread as long as he is okay with the idea. We are putting reds on his pendants anyways.
I am knee jerking right now and tempted to find 420nm leds now.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptics http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/80#post_3435001
With the reds it looks like the Cree's are 625-630nm (Best I can tell from the tech doc I found). I am assuming the Osrams are 660nm. Does it make a lot of difference? The Cree's are 3w btw. With the 420nm's I can only find 1watts. Is that all they come in?
Sometimes we need to be careful when taking the information that we see on some of the websites selling the led kits as gospel just as we do when taking information that we get on forums as completely accurate. I'd encourage everyone to continue to do their own research in their endeavors. The XR-C leds are 700mA max drive current. Which makes them capable of drawing just over 2 watts of power. They also have the XP-G's labeled as 3 watt leds when we really know that they're 5 watt. We could make it complicated by using ohms law to break down the specific apparent wattage of what leds are capable of by looking at the voltage they use and the amount of current that they can handle but for the sake of not trying to confuse myself and others we can pretty much sum it up into a general rule by simply looking at the maximum current that they are capable of. When talking about leds generally speaking 1 watt is usually equal to anywhere between 300mA - 350mA depend on the voltage that they require.
350mA max = 1 watt led
700mA max = 2 watt led
1000mA max = 3 watt led
1500mA max = 5 watt led
3000mA max = 10 watt led
You can find 2watt 420nm leds through ledgroupbuy dot com for anyone interested. When comparing the cree XRC leds to the Osram 660 leds it is important to know that they were both designed for different applications. The cree leds were designed simply for creating red light for various applications like signs, accent lighting, etc. The Osrams were developed specifically to target the deep red wavelength for plant growth and were intended to be used by horticulturalists. In fact if you look at a lot of the led grow light panels for sale on line. Most of them are using Osram deep reds. They are the led of choice when it comes to photosynthesis. That doesn't mean that the cree's are useless. It just means that one is better if photosynthetic activity is your goal. You probably won't notice any difference visually with the human eye. Corals and plants probably will. But by how much? Your guys' guess is as good as mine. I will be getting ready to order leds for my algae scrubber soon and those are what I intend to go with along with neutral whites.
I was just reading that Osram apparently just came out with an even more efficient deep red led in the 660nm range called the Oslan SSL.
Other recent updates would be the introduction of the XT-E royal blue led by Cree. Easier to bin, more efficient and cheaper than XP-E and XR-E. Can be found through Cutters or Groupledbuy.
Originally Posted by cryptics http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/80#post_3435001
With the reds it looks like the Cree's are 625-630nm (Best I can tell from the tech doc I found). I am assuming the Osrams are 660nm. Does it make a lot of difference? The Cree's are 3w btw. With the 420nm's I can only find 1watts. Is that all they come in?
Sometimes we need to be careful when taking the information that we see on some of the websites selling the led kits as gospel just as we do when taking information that we get on forums as completely accurate. I'd encourage everyone to continue to do their own research in their endeavors. The XR-C leds are 700mA max drive current. Which makes them capable of drawing just over 2 watts of power. They also have the XP-G's labeled as 3 watt leds when we really know that they're 5 watt. We could make it complicated by using ohms law to break down the specific apparent wattage of what leds are capable of by looking at the voltage they use and the amount of current that they can handle but for the sake of not trying to confuse myself and others we can pretty much sum it up into a general rule by simply looking at the maximum current that they are capable of. When talking about leds generally speaking 1 watt is usually equal to anywhere between 300mA - 350mA depend on the voltage that they require.
350mA max = 1 watt led
700mA max = 2 watt led
1000mA max = 3 watt led
1500mA max = 5 watt led
3000mA max = 10 watt led
You can find 2watt 420nm leds through ledgroupbuy dot com for anyone interested. When comparing the cree XRC leds to the Osram 660 leds it is important to know that they were both designed for different applications. The cree leds were designed simply for creating red light for various applications like signs, accent lighting, etc. The Osrams were developed specifically to target the deep red wavelength for plant growth and were intended to be used by horticulturalists. In fact if you look at a lot of the led grow light panels for sale on line. Most of them are using Osram deep reds. They are the led of choice when it comes to photosynthesis. That doesn't mean that the cree's are useless. It just means that one is better if photosynthetic activity is your goal. You probably won't notice any difference visually with the human eye. Corals and plants probably will. But by how much? Your guys' guess is as good as mine. I will be getting ready to order leds for my algae scrubber soon and those are what I intend to go with along with neutral whites.
I was just reading that Osram apparently just came out with an even more efficient deep red led in the 660nm range called the Oslan SSL.
Other recent updates would be the introduction of the XT-E royal blue led by Cree. Easier to bin, more efficient and cheaper than XP-E and XR-E. Can be found through Cutters or Groupledbuy.
acrylic51
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/60#post_3434912
The risks associated with UV make it a real tough decision. There are some low power strips sold as 403nm but I am not sure they would really add to the look. I found some LED flashlights that are supposed to be 395nm I think I'm going to order one and play around and see if I can see a difference.
Reef don't really see the risk????? Your not loading the display up with UV leds......I have seen UV's sparingly used over a tank and incredible looking!!!!!!
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/60#post_3434912
The risks associated with UV make it a real tough decision. There are some low power strips sold as 403nm but I am not sure they would really add to the look. I found some LED flashlights that are supposed to be 395nm I think I'm going to order one and play around and see if I can see a difference.
Reef don't really see the risk????? Your not loading the display up with UV leds......I have seen UV's sparingly used over a tank and incredible looking!!!!!!
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/80#post_3435189
Reef don't really see the risk????? Your not loading the display up with UV leds......I have seen UV's sparingly used over a tank and incredible looking!!!!!!
The thing that has me a little bit leary is what are the long term effects. How much is too much and for how long?
Color change due to UV light
"In nature, ultraviolet light waves (UV-A and UV-B) penetrate the ocean's surface but are filtered out as the light travels through the water. Both UV-A and UV-B light waves have been found to cause destruction of DNA and RNA within coral tissue. In response, many corals have made adaptations to reduce the effects of these harmful rays. These corals developed protective pigments that are often blue, purple, or pink in color. Most corals that contain these pigments come from shallow waters where the amount of UV-A and UV-B light is higher than in deeper areas of the reef."
I'm thinking that lower levels in moderation might be beneficial but at what area of the spectrum? I'm hoping that the 420nm's will be enough to give the tank just a little bit of u.v that they can use but not over power them to the point where the corals can't adapt and it destroys tissue. I would hate to think that I was running the equivalent of a u.v. sterilizer over my tank. We already know 420 actinic florescents have been used for years with no i'll effects. Perhaps those leds will be enough to maintain those beautiful pigments.
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/80#post_3435189
Reef don't really see the risk????? Your not loading the display up with UV leds......I have seen UV's sparingly used over a tank and incredible looking!!!!!!
The thing that has me a little bit leary is what are the long term effects. How much is too much and for how long?
Color change due to UV light
"In nature, ultraviolet light waves (UV-A and UV-B) penetrate the ocean's surface but are filtered out as the light travels through the water. Both UV-A and UV-B light waves have been found to cause destruction of DNA and RNA within coral tissue. In response, many corals have made adaptations to reduce the effects of these harmful rays. These corals developed protective pigments that are often blue, purple, or pink in color. Most corals that contain these pigments come from shallow waters where the amount of UV-A and UV-B light is higher than in deeper areas of the reef."
I'm thinking that lower levels in moderation might be beneficial but at what area of the spectrum? I'm hoping that the 420nm's will be enough to give the tank just a little bit of u.v that they can use but not over power them to the point where the corals can't adapt and it destroys tissue. I would hate to think that I was running the equivalent of a u.v. sterilizer over my tank. We already know 420 actinic florescents have been used for years with no i'll effects. Perhaps those leds will be enough to maintain those beautiful pigments.
mr btldreef
Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/80#post_3435265
The thing that has me a little bit leary is what are the long term effects. How much is too much and for how long?
exactly.... we know it is harmful to us. coral have there own way of protecting themselves from it. do we take the chance? i have royal blues and neutral whites and i have nice color....even sps. so at this point in time ... i feel it is not necessary.
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/80#post_3435265
The thing that has me a little bit leary is what are the long term effects. How much is too much and for how long?
exactly.... we know it is harmful to us. coral have there own way of protecting themselves from it. do we take the chance? i have royal blues and neutral whites and i have nice color....even sps. so at this point in time ... i feel it is not necessary.
acrylic51
Active Member
I understand what was stated but following a thread over on RC were its being done, and have seen a tank personally for close to a year running UV and no I'll effects. Now again I'm no talking about flooding the setup with them as well. Moderation of use, and there isn't an argument that they produce the "pop"!
mr btldreef
Member
grrr... you can't share links on this site. okay i ll do a search.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiefers http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/80#post_3435326
All freakin chinese to me! Someone speak engrish already!!! Lol....
IMO uv is harmful more so in water being magnified right? So.... one would want the lowest possible uv for the set up correct?
(trying to learn omething new..... don't shoot the student plz)
I would think so yes. I'm not convinced it's needed to benefit the health of corals. Nothing I've seen would indicate that. It's more about getting the corals to produce more of those pigments that cause them to fluoresce. My thoughts would be using Leds somewhere around the 390nm range since 400nm tops out the u.v. scale. Anything above that would be considered violet and then indigo. I'm leaning towards just running some 420nm leds along with the blues since they will add a violet look to the tank plus target that range of the spectrum that's beneficial for chlorophyll B. Anything below 400nm and you pretty much won't even be able to see any of that actual light with your eyes. I have a set of regular blue leds that I retrofited to my flourescent fixture that already makes corals pop. And those are only 1 watt leds. I can only imagine how crazy they'd look with high powered blue, royal blue and violet leds. In addition to the whites and possibly high reds.
Originally Posted by Kiefers http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/80#post_3435326
All freakin chinese to me! Someone speak engrish already!!! Lol....
IMO uv is harmful more so in water being magnified right? So.... one would want the lowest possible uv for the set up correct?
(trying to learn omething new..... don't shoot the student plz)
I would think so yes. I'm not convinced it's needed to benefit the health of corals. Nothing I've seen would indicate that. It's more about getting the corals to produce more of those pigments that cause them to fluoresce. My thoughts would be using Leds somewhere around the 390nm range since 400nm tops out the u.v. scale. Anything above that would be considered violet and then indigo. I'm leaning towards just running some 420nm leds along with the blues since they will add a violet look to the tank plus target that range of the spectrum that's beneficial for chlorophyll B. Anything below 400nm and you pretty much won't even be able to see any of that actual light with your eyes. I have a set of regular blue leds that I retrofited to my flourescent fixture that already makes corals pop. And those are only 1 watt leds. I can only imagine how crazy they'd look with high powered blue, royal blue and violet leds. In addition to the whites and possibly high reds.
reefraff
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/80#post_3435189
Reef don't really see the risk????? Your not loading the display up with UV leds......I have seen UV's sparingly used over a tank and incredible looking!!!!!!
What worries me is the UV in so concentrated coming from the high power LED's. I'd be nervous even using the one watt units. Know anyone who's have the double ended Halide lamp over their tank have the outer glass break and not change the lamp? The resulting UV causes death and destruction. Once I try the LED flash light I will over the 403's and see what they do.
You should check out Dana's article about which wavelengths cause the different colors to fluoresce, cool stuff
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/80#post_3435189
Reef don't really see the risk????? Your not loading the display up with UV leds......I have seen UV's sparingly used over a tank and incredible looking!!!!!!
What worries me is the UV in so concentrated coming from the high power LED's. I'd be nervous even using the one watt units. Know anyone who's have the double ended Halide lamp over their tank have the outer glass break and not change the lamp? The resulting UV causes death and destruction. Once I try the LED flash light I will over the 403's and see what they do.
You should check out Dana's article about which wavelengths cause the different colors to fluoresce, cool stuff
2quills
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/80#post_3435354
You should check out Dana's article about which wavelengths cause the different colors to fluoresce, cool stuff
Wow...cool stuff indeed. Just read through part 1. Who would have thought?
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/80#post_3435354
You should check out Dana's article about which wavelengths cause the different colors to fluoresce, cool stuff
Wow...cool stuff indeed. Just read through part 1. Who would have thought?
reefraff
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/80#post_3435360
Reef if you look at the MH's and T5 lights they hit the area of 400nm. Have we actually measured the depth it penetrates??? The blue/white combo isn't hitting that range or is short coming in that area IMO.
The instance with the double ended halide causes a large amount of UV to be produced because the inner core is quarts which wont filter out UV. If the outer glass breaks but the lamp continues to work the resulting spike in UV has broken people's hearts. I spose in the case of a LED with a narrow band of UV emission in the higher range it might not be as serious. I am still going to stick with the low power ones just to be safe.
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/387057/going-to-try-a-led-build-any-advice-is-appreciated/80#post_3435360
Reef if you look at the MH's and T5 lights they hit the area of 400nm. Have we actually measured the depth it penetrates??? The blue/white combo isn't hitting that range or is short coming in that area IMO.
The instance with the double ended halide causes a large amount of UV to be produced because the inner core is quarts which wont filter out UV. If the outer glass breaks but the lamp continues to work the resulting spike in UV has broken people's hearts. I spose in the case of a LED with a narrow band of UV emission in the higher range it might not be as serious. I am still going to stick with the low power ones just to be safe.