Got a taste of Affirmative Action

kjr_trig

Active Member
Not trying to start any major controversy on this, but I have never really seen the effects of Affirmative Action until this story.
My wife is a Nephrologist (Kidney Doc.) and 2000 graduate from med school, she has 3 younger siblings, one of which just graduated from Arizona St. University. He and his girlfriend of 4 years are both trying to get into Med. School The 2 biggest factors for getting in are your college GPA (assuming an appropriate major), and your MCAT score. The average GPA to get into their chosen school is around 3.6, and average MCAT is around 30 varying from year to year a bit, keep in mind that is average, not minimum.
They both had the same major, his GPA was just over 3.6, hers was around 3.4, they both took the MCAT a few months back, and he got a 25, she got a 24, they asked my wife what she thought of their chances. My wife told her brother (point blank) he would be wasting the cost of the application, he had little or no chance of even getting an interview, let alone getting in, and he should retake the test and get a better score. She then told his girlfriend, she would easily get an interview, and likely get in, so she should apply for sure. They both applied, sure enough, he was declined, and she has her interview in a few months.
Confused? I certainly was. My wife and brother are Vietnamese Americans, his girlfriend is Mexican American. While Asian Americans may be subject to discrimination and other stereotypes, they are not considered minorities academically. Only Native American, African American, and Mexican American apparently get help. Does this not seem a little insulting to these races? Is it not saying, "sure Asians are minorities, but they are smarter than these other races, so they don't need help".
Again, sorry if my saying this offends anybody, just seems a bit frustrating.
 

t316

Active Member
That is confusing, but if I read correctly, I certainly would have thought that both of the races would be considered minority (academically or in any other sense) as well.
 

stevedave08

Member
Originally Posted by T316
http:///forum/post/3188691
That is confusing, but if I read correctly, I certainly would have thought that both of the races would be considered minority (academically or in any other sense) as well.
They are. More than likely it wasn't race that benefitted her, it was gender.
 

kjr_trig

Active Member
Originally Posted by SteveDave08
http:///forum/post/3188699
They are. More than likely it wasn't race that benefitted her, it was gender.
You are partly correct, being a woman minority helps even more, but being asian may as well be caucasian.
 

reefraff

Active Member
You would think those who gain the unfair advantage would have enough self respect to be insulted by the notion they are not smart enough to make it in on their own.
 

stevedave08

Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3188711
You would think those who gain the unfair advantage would have enough self respect to be insulted by the notion they are not smart enough to make it in on their own.
It's not about not being smart enough. Affirmative action was put in place because too many actually intelligent and capable people who just happenned to be minorities were turned down because of where they came from or the color of their skin. Now, does it benefit idiots who are too dumb to make it otherwise? Yes, it'll get some people who are undeserving/dumb into certain schools, but if you're really that dumb, you won't be able to hack it anyway and you'll have to leave after you're on academic probation all the time.
 

kjr_trig

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3188711
You would think those who gain the unfair advantage would have enough self respect to be insulted by the notion they are not smart enough to make it in on their own.
Yeah whatever RR...I'm not saying that, I'm just saying in this situation, with the 2 obviously knowing each other so well, it's a bit frustrating for the one with the better credentials, being left behind because of his gender and race.
Hope Quan Boldin and Steve B. have 10 yards each and no scores tonight, and Hightower scores 9 TD's and has 300 yards rushing.
 

kjr_trig

Active Member
Originally Posted by SteveDave08
http:///forum/post/3188714
It's not about not being smart enough. Affirmative action was put in place because too many actually intelligent and capable people who just happenned to be minorities were turned down because of where they came from or the color of their skin. Now, does it benefit idiots who are too dumb to make it otherwise? Yes, it'll get some people who are undeserving/dumb into certain schools, but if you're really that dumb, you won't be able to hack it anyway and you'll have to leave after you're on academic probation all the time.
My understanding is it's fairly uncommon for people to "flunk out" of Med School because the government invests quite a bit of money into students that get in (at least a state institutions). It is common for students who struggle to be held back a year, this happened to several in my wife's class, but other than leaving on their own, nobody failed out.
 

t316

Active Member
IMO, this is yet another example of Affirmative Action actually promoting Reverse Discrimination.
 

stevedave08

Member
Originally Posted by kjr_trig
http:///forum/post/3188720
My understanding is it's fairly uncommon for people to "flunk out" of Med School because the government invests quite a bit of money into students that get in (at least a state institutions). It is common for students who struggle to be held back a year, this happened to several in my wife's class, but other than leaving on their own, nobody failed out.
I work at UM School of Medicine and if you can't hack it, yea, you could get held back, but it doesn't look very good. Most opt to leave before they are asked.
 

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by SteveDave08
http:///forum/post/3188699
They are. More than likely it wasn't race that benefitted her, it was gender.
Probably not - females now make up more than 55% of medical students; if there is a minority, it is males.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by SteveDave08
http:///forum/post/3188714
It's not about not being smart enough. Affirmative action was put in place because too many actually intelligent and capable people who just happenned to be minorities were turned down because of where they came from or the color of their skin. Now, does it benefit idiots who are too dumb to make it otherwise? Yes, it'll get some people who are undeserving/dumb into certain schools, but if you're really that dumb, you won't be able to hack it anyway and you'll have to leave after you're on academic probation all the time.
But the whole concept of giving someone an advantage simply because they are a ___________ is no better than keeping them out because they are a ____________ . As a short term remedy AA would have been fine but now, decades later there is no legitimate excuse for it's existence in most cases.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by kjr_trig
http:///forum/post/3188715
Yeah whatever RR...I'm not saying that, I'm just saying in this situation, with the 2 obviously knowing each other so well, it's a bit frustrating for the one with the better credentials, being left behind because of his gender and race.
Hope Quan Boldin and Steve B. have 10 yards each and no scores tonight, and Hightower scores 9 TD's and has 300 yards rushing.

I guess it's my conservative streak that makes this so distasteful in my eyes. Individualism is important to me and to be lumped into a category based on a physical or ethnic aspect just flies in the face of everything I believe in.
I was in high school back when the first wave of "boat people" came in. It wasn't long before you started seeing all these funny looking names filling up the honor roll. No doubt about the fact the Vietnamese families placed a strong emphasis on learning. But if you bought into the premise of non whites needing an advantage why were only certain non whites given the special treatment?

What we need tonight is a high powered aerial assault and a few long range field goals. I think the cards need to hold out hightower so he's healthy for the playoffs.
 

stevedave08

Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3188760
But the whole concept of giving someone an advantage simply because they are a ___________ is no better than keeping them out because they are a ____________ . As a short term remedy AA would have been fine but now, decades later there is no legitimate excuse for it's existence in most cases.
I agree. It's not as vast a problem as it used to be, but it is still a problem for some depending on what state you're in.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3188767
I guess it's my conservative streak that makes this so distasteful in my eyes. Individualism is important to me and to be lumped into a category based on a physical or ethnic aspect just flies in the face of everything I believe in.
I was in high school back when the first wave of "boat people" came in. It wasn't long before you started seeing all these funny looking names filling up the honor roll. No doubt about the fact the Vietnamese families placed a strong emphasis on learning. But if you bought into the premise of non whites needing an advantage why were only certain non whites given the special treatment?

What we need tonight is a high powered aerial assault and a few long range field goals. I think the cards need to hold out hightower so he's healthy for the playoffs.
Hey MLK would agree, "I have a dream that my kids won't be judged by the color of their skin." he didn't say won't be negatively judged... He just said Judged...
 

reefraff

Active Member
I think one failed aspect of the AA program is they didn't tend to look at the reason minorities were not involved or employed in certain situations. Forcing a quota system was hardly the best fix if there was a cultural reason why certain ethnic people didn't go to a certain school or work and a given profession. Honestly in this day and age I would be shocked if there are positions or professions minorities and women (within reason) believe they can't hold simply because of their race or gender. Well color me shocked because they still do which amazes me. You had a minority and a woman (2 if you count Hillary
) vying to become president of the United States last election. As bad as I think Obama is the Symbolism of a non white male becoming president of the US is one of the most valuable in the modern history on mankind on the planet.
Damn, I said some positive about Obama. I gotta go shower now.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3188891
Damn, I said some positive about Obama. I gotta go shower now.

Actully, you said something positive about the American people. They were able to look past race and give him the nod. You don't have to shower for another 2 weeks still...you are ok.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
I have a friend with a darker complexion than most and up here in maine, while african ancestry and other ethnic diversities are becoming more and more common there is still a lot of racism and bigotry one of his favorite questions to answer is "what do you like to be called?" he simply answers "Greg" and they often ask "no I mean do you like to be called, black, african american, or what" and again he answers "I like to be called, Greg."
somepeople play the affirmative action thing as hard as they can. and yet others think everything should be about race or use rtace as a justification for anything.
in a recent problem greg had at work he had injured his back while working and could no longer tile floors, he has notes from both his doctor and physical therapist, telling his bosses that he could not work bent over for extended amounts of time. anyone who has ever laid tile knows how devastating it is on the back and knees to tile. there was plenty of other things he could do on that job but tiling was out. so they terminated him for refusing to lay tile. this is illeagle, and he is pursuing the appropriate measures with the department of labor, and one person (who is caucasian and who shall remain nameless) was sort of involved in the conversation we were having about it asked "why dont you bring in the fact that your black and it was probably racially motivated"
greg simply shook his head and stated "maybe I just like to be different, I'm in the right to refuse work my doctors say will exacerbate my injury. trying to play the race card will just muddy the waters and its not about that, its about getting fired for getting injured and being unable to do the work that they want, I can do other stuff on that project but I cant do that."
the other person seemed at a loss as to why he wouldnt use the race card as an ace in the hole. and greg gave up trying to explain that just because he is black doesnt mean everything is about race......
a little off topic but you see how racism and reverse racism can stem from anydirection
 
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