Grounding Probe: Effective or a Scam?

beth

Administrator
Staff member
One of our members posted a link to some info regarding the effectiveness [or lack thereof] of grounding probes. This info is the POV of an individual and I am simply copying/pasting. I thought it was interesting and worth considering, particularly since we commonly recommend this equiptment when treating HLLE.
Thought I would post the opinion and see what kind of opinions we get here.
[See below.]
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Quoted from another source
"Everything I have learned in this hobby over time makes sense in some context. The use of a grounding probe, however, makes no scientific sense at all in any context. The use of a grounding probe is to bleed off stray voltage in one's water column, which purportedly, is an undesirable thing. Grounding probes perform this by introducing a ground level potential into your water column which effectively "grounds out" your entire system.
My contention is that elevated voltage levels pose no harm whatsoever to the inhabitants of one's tank. Voltage potential is a relative phenomenon, in most cases, relative to "true ground" or that of mother earth. A living organism cannot sense in any way if the voltage potential of their body is different from that of true ground. Only when they come in contact, and become a conduit between an elevated voltage potential and that of a lesser potential or true ground, do living organisms sense any discomfort due to the electrical current generated by the flow of electricity. To illustrate my point, think of the bird on a high voltage power line example. Only when the bird grounds out or touches something of significantly lower voltage does he experience any sensation of discomfort that could ultimately kill him. The electrical current running through his body is what he senses (and likely dies from, if great enough) between the two differing voltages, not the voltage itself.
Grounding probes are one of the greatest marketing scams in this hobby, and one of the most pervasive, and here is why. Grounding probes provide an electrical conduit for electrical current to begin flowing between the source of an elevated voltage and that of the grounding probe. This is how they effectively "ground" your water column. The flow of electrical current, itself, between a contributing source and the grouding probe causes discomfort to all things that do NOT present a greater resistance to ground than that of the grounding probe. This means any organism that is not grounded (viz., your fish, etc) will suffer electrical current flow over/through their bodies if they orient themselves between the contributing source of voltage and your grounding probe.
I would agree, that from a personal safety point of view, a grounding probe seems like a good idea. From the tank inhabitant's perspective, however, grounding probes significantly increase electrical current flow. Unfortunately, the two objectives are really in conflict with each other. Hopefully, we all understand that electricity will take the least path of resistance. You, the human, outside the tank are ultimately grounded and present greater resistance than that of the grounding probe, which results in no electrical current flow over/through your body. GFI protected receptacles ARE A MUST and are the only means to truly protect oneself, not via a grounding probe.
As many people know, there are two broad classifications of circuit failure. Circuit shorting (to ground) and an open circuit where power supplied to the device no longer makes its way to ground through the device, resulting in the device itself and any conductive medium to which it is attached (water, in this case) will float to a difference in potential from ground. Both types of failure will result in a noticable decrease in performance and ultimate failure of the device.
Without a grounding probe in place, when a device begins to short, the stray current produced will remain local to the device, as electricity will always take the path of least resistance. The proximity in the difference of potential between the input side and output side of the device is what accommodates this least path of resistance. By definition, shorts in electrical circuits are always found somewhere prior to the intended output, and as such, incur some level of impedence to complete the circuit. Grounding probes twart this remaining device impedence by offering a lesser path of resistance (only the distance between the device and probe over a conductive medium -- water ), resulting in electrical current flow external to the device.
My conclusion: From the human perspective, adding a ground probe results in the impossibility of sensing any electrical shock whatsoever, due to the electrical current's preferential path of going through the grounding probe as opposed to the human's body to reach ground. Any part of the human body presents too much resistance over that of the water to sense any shocking effect. From the fish's perspective, however, they are not grounded. In fact, their bodies are likely more preferential conductors than saltwater due to less salt contained within their tissues (the less impurities in water, the better conductive property it has, for reasons in my earlier post). Fish do, however, have the ability to minimize their exposure to the (increased) voltage gradient created by adding the grounding probe; either by swimming out of the area containing maximum gradient or by orienting their bodies to be perpendicular to the field, thereby minimizing their bodies "span" within that gradient.
....[continued next post]
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Quote continued
Bottom line: Grounding probes introduce a greater disparity in voltage differences than that what would exist otherwise. Grounding probes also pull what normally would be a localized electrical field outside of the devices/appliances that are contributing to the voltage leak into the surrounding water column. This creates additional stress in the inhabitants. In my opinion, grounding probes are clearly for human benefit/reassurance/safety and not for that of the fish, although all marketing, anecdotal information and folklore would indicate otherwise. The physics involved just doesn't make sense.
As you may have guessed, if you're still reading by now, the physics involved are quite complex. As further explanation, I have included a short explanation of electrical fields within a 3D space as background information to help facilitate your (and my) understanding.
If there are any EE's or Physicists out there that can add/dispute or challenge my assertions, I would love to hear from you...
Electrical Fields in Water - A three dimensional space:
Electrical current begins to flow across a conductor when there is a difference in voltage potential between either two objects or within a three dimensional space. Our tanks experience the latter, where for a number of reasons, a voltage difference (from ground) is introduced into our tanks and the conductor is water.
Moving water itself creates voltage (and resulting electrical current) due to the H20 molecules themselves being electrically diaopposed. This difference in charge of the water molecule itself is due to the positioning of the hydrogen atoms relative to the oxygen atom; the available void in the two electron valence holes of the much larger oxygen atom is off to one side of molecule (106 degrees between the hydrogen atoms, as I recall). The resulting H20 molecule is positively charged on one end -- where the hydrogen atoms conjoin -- and negatively charged on the oxygen atom side, directly opposite the bisecting line of the hydrogen atoms. These two oppositely charged ends of the H20 molecule is why water exhibits such things as surface tension and makes such a willing conductor. The transient charges resulting from water in motion alone can easily exceed 1 volt, but will cancel each other out over very short distances however.
To simplify the explanation, let's consider only a two dimensional space for now. At a given two-dimensional plane in 3D space between the source of the greatest voltage difference and that of the least difference (relative to ground) is a voltage gradient or electrical field. If there is a conductor between these two points, electrical current will flow. Assume we choose the point of lesser difference (not necessarily ground) as our reference and incrementally measure the difference in voltage along the path between these two points. As you move along this 2D plane from the source of the greatest difference to the point of least difference (using this point of least difference as our reference), the difference in voltage will incrementally decrease until it becomes zero.
This means a couple of things...First, assume we hold the linear dimension between two differing points constant and vary the voltage difference. The greater the voltage difference across this fixed linear dimension, the stronger the voltage gradient (incrementally measured) between the two points and the more electrical current flow will result between them. Next, assume we hold the voltage difference constant, and vary the distance between the two points. The closer you move the two points in proximity to each other, the stronger the voltage gradient between them becomes, and so too does the amount of electrical current flowing between them.
When we move to a 3D model, this voltage gradient between the two points follows what's called a Gaussian distribution. If you think of a topographical map (where all equal elevations are plotted and lines between them are drawn), you can imagine a similar pictograph if you were to connect all equal voltage differences between the two points in 3D space. The strongest gradient (most change per distance measured) would be on the straight line oriented on a 2D plane which represents the closest distance between the two points. This is where maximum electrical current flow is happening. All other points of lesser gradient (and current flow) other than that of maximum are generally arranged in a concentric radial fashion around this shortest distance line (max field/current), which decrease in field/current as you move laterally (perpendicularly) away from this shortest distance line which accommodates the maximum gradient and current flow.
So what does all this mean?? Well, this is why the electrical current from whatever source is not omnipresent or found throughout your entire water column to kill you or all of your animals; even though the entire water column is a conductor. Only when you (if ungrounded) or a fish orient themselves within this Gaussian distribution and between the two points will you feel the voltage difference and possible shock of current running over/through your hand/body.
Voltage differences in space exist within our tanks, and the small amount of electrical current running between them is completely normal. As a number of posters have pointed out, without a grounding probe, our tanks are generally isolated from any source of ground which allows for a voltage difference to not bleed off (ala current generation). This is true. My point is simply (with the above explaination as a backdrop to my rationale) when one adds a grounding probe, they increase the level of voltage difference by redirecting any pre-existing differences to a lower potential (ground) than what existed prior to the addition of the probe. This results in an increased overall voltage gradient and resulting flow of electrical current within their tank between the contributing source of voltage and their ground probe."
End Quote
 

wamp

Active Member
From my Experience:
I had a ground probe on my 55 gallon. I noticed NO diffrence between having it grounded and not.
I am in electronics. I understand the theroy behing grounding the tanks to protect yourself. But, to date. I have seen no benefits in the way a tank looks with or without one.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
I thought the probe is essentially used to prevent stray voltage and whatever effects this voltage has on organisms. Particually, HLLE.
To protect humans, you really need a GFI.
???
 

wamp

Active Member
A grounding probe will also help protect yourself. It will provide a path (that is much better than yourself) to ground.
 

almarktool

Member
beth,wamp
never asked this before and not really if it even pertains to the subject as i only read part of the thread and it seams like people question the effevtivness of it, i can only say this if i don't have a grounding probe in my sump my ph monitor will not work properley it just bounces all of the place i put the probe in and not it works great any idea if this means anything i have limited elctronic background
mark
 

surfnturf

Member
This is an interesting topic, and Beth brought up the point about HLLE. I've read so many contradicting theories on what actually causes this that it really causes a lot of doubt. Why on Earth would stray voltage cause HLLE, since it is not actual AC voltage that is used by fish in navigation and hunting (mostly sharks but I would imagine they are not the only fish sensitive to this) I had always understood that it was EMFs (Electromagnetic Fields) since these are present in the oceans as well as everywhere else. EMF is not an inductive current, and cannot be grounded from the aquarium, it comes from things like heater coils, lighting ballasts, and pumps. It is a magnetic field, not voltage, measured in Gauss not Volts. Anyway, every case of HLLE I've run into was cured with good nutrition. If anyone has seen actual scientific research proving that stray voltage causes HLLE, I'd like to see it, it seems more like something that everyone "knows" to be true. Good topic, I'm really interested to see what everyone else has to say about the practice of grounding tanks. GFI's would actually do a better job, since they sense any voltage sent to ground and kill the circuit, before it kills you.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
HLLE is believed to be caused by various factors, only one of which is stray voltage.
As it applies to stray voltage, the theory is that the fish's sensory organ, the lateral line, which in nature is used by fish to sense barometric changes from movements within their vicinity, navigation, locating food sources and evading predators, is also able to sense electrical charges in the water. Thus, the stray voltage that is generated from hobby equipment and disbursed in our tank water can be overwhelming for this particular organ. Sorta like hearing noise. If the noise is loud enough, and constant---you’ll go deaf. The theory is that the excessive voltage constantly bombarding the fish's sensory organ, causes stress, resulting in a suppressed immune system. This stress results in fish vulnerability to opportunistic pathogens, or a dysfunctional immune system with resulting systemic maladies.
 

surfnturf

Member
Beth, I guess my point was, has anyone seen a scientific paper proving the theory that electrical voltage in tank water will cause dysfunction of the Lateral Line (HLLE). I have read similar explanations of the theory you gave in many places, but never have I seen scientific evidence (maybe it's out there somewhere) or heard anyone talk of this being a proven fact. I guess the companies selling the ground probes could tell us whether or not this is true ;)
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Surf, to be honest with you, I have seen few "scientific" papers regarding anything in our hobby. This is a hobby not a “science”, and most things we know about comes from trail-error, non-professional experimentation, hobbyists' experiences and expert opinion. Every so-called “expert” in our hobby that I have read up on endorse the stray voltage-HLLE connection. Many have written up about their own experiences in dealing with this issue as it applies to stray voltage.
Let me see if I can get TerryB and the rest of the Disease gang over here to comment. They will probably be able to give more details about “experts” and scientific study, if there are any.
 

surfnturf

Member
I was just curious, one would think that there would be a few marine biologists in the hobby that would research things like this. I have accepted that HLLE comes from a combination of sources, water chemistry, general stress, improper nutrition, and the possibility of either stray voltage or some other effect related to the electrical equipment used on the tank. Good nutrition does seem to be able to overcome the problem, but it is true that this would help overcome the effect of stress from other sources. I guess that over time we will see some research done on these areas and that will lead to an improvement in the hobby. Right now it's all theory and opinion, and you have to take it all with a grain of salt.
 

viper12775

Member
i use ground probes on all my tanks i was having a problem keeping angle fish my lfs told me a few thing to check including stray voltage i checked it and had 23 volts running in my reef tank i got a probe from that pet place for $15.00 put in the tank got the volt meter out and no more voltage so i feel safer but thats just my opinion
 

wamp

Active Member
The thing with HLLE is that it can, and has, been reversed with proper nutrition and care. Vitamin C I belive being one element. So... If stray voltage is to be a cause than why would nutrition be able to reverse it?
Anyone know?
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Wamp, unlike other fish diseases, HLLE is not just caused by a single factor. Yes, nutrition can be the cause of HLLE, has can parasites, and, the belief is that stray voltage can also cause it.
 

wamp

Active Member
beth,
If the fish gets it in a tank with stray voltage and then gets reversed with Nutritional supplements in the same tank how would they explain that?
:confused:
 

wamp

Active Member
I would not do naything drastic...
I Can't wait for the new house so I can conduct some science expirements!!!
 

frankl15207

Member
To be honest, I had never used or heard of one until I purchased the book "Natural Reef Aquariums" by John Tullock and I am far from new to the hobby. I'm not sure that reprinting the author's description is acceptable [see page 58 if you have it] (copyright and all of that), but I know that both of my tanks have probes in them and I have definitely noticed less shyness in the fish.
I have no electronic background, and I don't really think that they will do much good for faulty wiring, but they are supposed to eliminate the stray 10 to 50 volt "leaks" off of equipment (specifically powerheads) and my bet is one brand in particular :) .
The tank was moved to a different location in the house and I had a registered electrician install the GFCI for it. He was a hobbyist also, and when he asked what it was for, he also asked where I bought it at and how much it cost. He thought it was a good idea to have and was going to pick one up for his tank.
 

surfnturf

Member
Voltage in a tank may very well be a stressor, although to what extent remains to be proven. People or pets walking past the tank present a certain amount of stress, poor water quality (the worst stressor by far), constantly varying light cycles, salinity, pH, etc.... are all common stressors. Sometimes when you have all of these stress factors affecting a fish, you can supplement their reserves with good nutrition. By all means, you should make every effort to remove as much stress as practical from the environment you provide, and attempt to make up for what stressors you cannot possibly or practically remove, with as good or better nutrition than what the animals would feed on in their natural environment. Someone mentioned the squirrel on the wire analogy earlier, this is really a good point. Without potential to ground there is no effect from this voltage. Voltage is simply an excess of electrons (simplified) without a path to flow, it goes nowhere, does nothing (except when you stick a grounding rod in the tank, not sure where that logic comes from). We are surrounded with various forms of energy at all times, all creatures are. EMFs are a potentially bad thing, this energy has been shown to produce different forms of cancer in humans, but only at extreme levels. Radiation is bad, but only at extreme levels, most people don't realize how radioactive everyday items are, especially that their thyroid gives off quite a bit of radiation from radioactive iodine the gland uptakes, the effect: none. My point is, the effect of electricity in the tank, well, it may be a stressor, but probably much less so than me shining the flashlight in the tank at 2 am to see what new creatures I can find in there. BTW, if you don't have a GFI on your equipment get one, I've already had one scare with a cracked heater, besides, you don't want your dead body polluting your tank.:D
 
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